Enneagram Types & Therapy

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I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this panel, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Whitney Russell Stabile, MS, LPC-S, CEDS-C (Type 1)

• Eden Hyder, LPC, LCMHC-QS (Type 2)

• Leslie Bley, LPC-S (Type 6)

• Joanne Kim, LMFT (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I have four panelists with me, all of whom are professional therapists. We have some amazing panels today, as you can see on the schedule. We have a heart types panel, a gut types panel, a head types panel, a parents panel, but this particular panel is for creating some space to talk about mental health.

With some mental health professionals about their observations about each Enneagram type in therapy. So this panel is going to be perfect, for any Enneagram enthusiast looking to get insights or patterns about how their type approaches mental health, and maybe what some of the barriers might be to, you know, healing and growth, but this panel is also going to be perfect for therapists who use the Enneagram or are thinking about using the Enneagram more in their practice.

So without further ado, let me introduce you to our panelists. Um, we have, uh, Whitney Russell Stabile. Can you just wave so we can, and we have Eden Heider and then Leslie Bley and then Joanne Kim. And Eden is on the heart types panel along with Joanne. So you can go over to the heart size panel and hear a little bit more of their story.

But before we jump into our observations, I'd love for you guys just to give a little brief bio of yourself so we can get to know you. Whitney, would you mind going first? Sure.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): So I'm Whitney and I'm married to Joel Stabile and we have four wonderful kids. We're a blended family. So it's a yours, mine and ours situation.

So there's lots of lovely logistics that go along with that. Um, I've been a therapist since 2009 and, um, I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor. I'm a certified eating disorder specialist consultant. I'm also EMDR trained, and I own a group practice called Brave Haven Counseling in Richardson, Texas.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Amazing. And you are type one, correct?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yes, that is right. And you made the type one go first. Like I didn't get to learn what to expect from what everybody else said.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I know you're prepared. So, Eden, would you introduce yourself?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes, I am Eden Heider. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, formerly lived in Texas and partnered with Whitney in the past, um, which has been really fun.

I have a practice with my husband, Michael Heider, who's also a therapist. He's an Enneagram 9. I'm an Enneagram 2. And, the practice is called Inside Out Collaborative. Also have some creative projects that I've dabbled in over the years. One is a podcast called Inside Out Podcast, which focuses on attachment and providing kind of psychoeducational material on attachment and how to integrate that into our concepts of ourselves and our relationships.

And that's kind of where my specialty is as well as an eating disorders and, anxiety and depression.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great Eden. Thank you.

And we have Leslie Bley who have interviewed on a past summit. And so it's good to have you back. Leslie, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I live in Austin, Texas. I have been a therapist for about 20 years. I'm an LPC and supervisor here and I am married to an Enneagram nine. I'm an Enneagram six and my husband and I have twin boys that are 13. So it is a lot of unique smells and sounds and sites in my house, but it's a lot of fun.

And then part of my practice is working with groups. I run a group for women throughout the year called Compassionate Community Therapy, and it's modeled after attachment and motion regulation, story work. And then I also run groups for therapists called Business Vitality, and it's to help support therapists who are often feeling super alone in their own formation and in their business sense.

And I come from a business background, but a therapist heart. And so I try to mix those in these support and business, you know, style groups. And then I also try to do regular Enneagram for counselors, uh, trainings and webinars since there's not a whole lot out there giving tons of real straightforward.

You know, credible ways to integrate this into our world. So that's me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Leslie. And not, but last but not least, Joanne Kim, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I am an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in the Silicon Valley. So in the San Francisco Bay area, and I, in classic or fashion where I get bored very easily, I have three businesses that now I think about on, like, I probably should have just stuck with the one, um, but, I love what I do, in my therapy practice.

A lot of my clients are nines, ones, twos, and fours. So most of the right side of the enneagram, because my people tend to struggle with a lot of anxiety, guilt, and shame. Partially because they have an allergic reaction to anger. So one of my hats is as an Enneagram therapist. So my other hats are around creating a, an online school for feelings, because there's a lot of things that I cover with my clients where they're like, I really wish I'd learned this in school.

And I'm like, got it. I will make one. So, um, that is my joy. It keeps me up at night. Just cause it's a lot of work, but, it's something that I feel like I've been brought on this planet to do so. I am a self preservation for, married to a social one. With my work wife who is a sexual tooth. And so I got both of my aerotypes covered and w definitely grow and stretch each other in all the interesting ways possible So happy to be here and happy to share things related to mental health and how the Enneagram helps inform our path forward.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wonderful. Thank you so much, Joanne. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to go around the Enneagram starting with type one, and I want to spend about five to seven minutes or so on each Enneagram type, talking about maybe one or two observations that you all have, not all of you have to share about each type because we have to put some boundaries and limitations on our time.

It's hard enough to do, to talk about the Enneagram with one person for, for an hour, but it's, it's going to be a little challenging, but I think we're going to. We're going to be able to uncover some great stuff today. So let's start with type one and we can just, just jump in. And really, again, what we're trying to do is just to share some observations so that we can help people maybe recognize some patterns in their own type, and also to help some therapists who are interested in using the Enneagram in their practice to know what to expect if somebody wants to do the Enneagram and, and what to look out for.

So super excited about this, this conversation. So, anyone can jump in now. What about type ones? What do you, what are you seeing in your practice?

Perfection in Progress: How Enneagram Ones Navigate Trust and the Long Journey of Therapy

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I'll say that sometimes type ones are looking for the perfect therapist, so they often struggle with just kind of the imperfection and journey of therapy.

Once they, it takes them a while to really trust a therapist because that inner critic and all of the, the deep shame that they have, like it's going to be a while before they're really vulnerable with that deep stuff. And then once they have established that bit, it's really hard to leave that therapist.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So you are saying that Leslie too, when they don't terminate, they just want to continue on in therapy for a really long time? Is that what you're saying?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, or just not want to even consider transitioning maybe to a different modality. Maybe it's time to work on something from a different angle, but that trust is established and it just doesn't feel easy or good to leave.

And that's been my experience with multiple Enneagram Ones.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, I like thinking about Ones as the improvers, because often they're like called the perfectionists and reformers, and I think that applies to some Ones, but the spirit of the term improver I think captures like the intentions of those who are Ones, and Often other people experience them as being like critical or judgmental, but it's really from this like sense of being connected with this ideal of like the perfect world or how the world ought to be.

And so it can be really lonely for a lot of ones who have that sense because other people don't see it. And so I think one of the things that often get missed with ones is that sadness from. Not being seen in one's experiences, being on this like mission to like help the planet be better. And then also being misunderstood and rejected by other people.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Type 1s tend to be more on the like, Restrictive behaviors and or over exercising everyone. I tell people like when they slip over into seven, there might be some binging there, but then they'll come back to one and then be mad at themselves for all the things that they did at seven.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That makes sense.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): That;s control.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, there's a, there's a, a need for that. Yeah. That structure, which I think that the passion for justice, which comes from that really sweet space, almost that, that connection to that ideal that you were talking about Joanne, that need for control and structure.

And I think the eating disorder can really. As well as maybe other mental health systems can offer like a respite from the world, which feels out of control or from their emotions, which feel out of control at times.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I'd say like, anxiety and depression has a certain flavor for ones in that. I mean, I think for ones like depression doesn't look how we typically think of depression like being in one's feels and like, just like, you know, whining and complaining, but it's more of like the existentially type, like in being more resigned, being resigned, like, I don't get to have my wants and needs because like I have to always be on and be responsible.

And so it's kind of one's own individuality, personal wants and needs kind of take the back seat if it's like available at all. And so there's this, I mean, I think that's partially why there's so much resentment buildup, but it's not necessarily just resentment because other people aren't willing to show up for them.

Once I've actually eliminate that option for other people by stepping into those roles themselves first, but to step away from that feels really scary because then it's out of control and out of their agency. It's kind of a cycle that they get into.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Ones usually do look super functional and a lot of the mental health stuff that they're going through like even with OCD or depression, anxiety, eating disorders are usually still very functional, which I think is one of the reasons why it's hard for them to see that there that there's a problem.

Like, my therapist tells me I'm a long sufferer. Like, it takes me a long time. To actually like acknowledge that there's a problem because I can be so functional.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): And isn't that kind of the power of anger as your core emotion to like keep You feeling active. It's very energizing. Right. Doesn't feel depressed.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Alright, let's move on to type 2. I'm curious about Eden's experience.

Boundaries & Burdens: Navigating Shame & Stability in Enneagram Twos

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah.

Oh man. Yeah. When I see type 2's, I think I see it's because there's so much relational instability um, or distress distress And it's the relationship or the relational instability that brings them in, which is often interpreted as their own failure. They've, they're failing in the relationship. And so they're coming in, um, and I think that can translate to a lot of resentment.

Sometimes it can go into a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And I think kind of what you said, Joanne, like telling a one, like. What if you tried to not improve? What if you tried to actually get worse, get worse? Right. In a way, I'm telling it to is what if you tried to set boundaries, it feels, you know, counterintuitive to a two that's struggling with their relationship because that feels like you're creating more conflict.

You're creating more distress. And that is really anxiety-provoking.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): For, I tell two is like, we have to set boundaries. But then the second part is you have to reinforce the boundary and you also have to manage your own feelings about reinforcing the boundary because there is that fear of the disruption in the relationship, but also the shame and guilt that they feel after they set the boundary.

Usually tends to allow them to not reinforce the boundary later. It’s like, they'll say, no, I'm not going to do that. And then they feel so much shame and guilt about saying no. And then they're like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah, there's 2 parts to the boundary battle.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So boundary work is just gonna be a big deal when, when twos in, in therapy.

And I'm next door as a three to the twos. And I, I, I resonate with, with that as well, like setting a boundary with kids or in parenting or anything. And then feeling like the bad guy for, for doing that and then having to wrestle with that. So I, uh, yeah, that's really insightful.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Usually have to give a disclaimer to like two clients who are coming in for therapy.

I'm like, well, I have to kind of assess where they are 'cause. If someone is like, really fused with the type 2 structure, then it's like, well, relationship is everything and so they come in for therapy. As long as their relationship, there's some stuff going on, but then once they resolve those relationships, they're like, well, I'm done.

Right? So they just like, leave, but there are a lot of people who come in and they're like, I don't know why I keep getting in the cycle where, like, I'm putting in so much work. Yeah, in these connections and like, why won't they love me type of thing. And so with those people, I'm like, I'm just going to give you a heads up.

You're going to come in thinking that the main thing is related to relationships. And what is actually going to happen is we're going to work on your connection with yourself just to give them a heads up. Cause not everyone wants that. And so then they can like move on to the next best spot. It's like, people who do know about the enneagram have an easier time sitting with that idea and that they keep like, getting themselves into the cycle.

They can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That’s really helpful, Joanne. That it's sort of therapy's sort of a conditional on a relationship. You might think, well, I need help because this relationship's out of whack. I need help on that. And then I'll leave. And you're like, no, stay, stay.

We need to work on, on you. That's good. Yeah.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): But I think if people are in that place, like as therapists, I'm like, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If anything else comes up in the future, let me know, just kind of leave the door open because I think twos are also more attentive to the relationship between them and the therapist and so like, I, I try to be more mindful about not imposing an agenda that might get them to like, make sure that I'm okay. Or I like them. So I kind of leave things a bit more open ended and it's like, yeah, whatever you're bringing in, like, let's work on that. And if they seem like, you know, I don't know if there's some, something more to this, then I might bring things up more directly. Um, because even knowing what's going on behind the scenes for twos might feel really painful because it feels so embarrassing compared to like fours who like, want you to tell them like all the. Deep dark. It's like, they're usually like, I want you to tell me that I'm not okay with them. I need to take it more lightly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think Michael Sheehan pointed out that in my interview with him, that a lot of times twos are so nice. They're asking him lots of questions. He's like, no, we need to ask you, I need to ask you the questions.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have twos that will, they just, They, they need those, like, first couple minutes of like, checking in with me almost.

And, and we've discussed that and, and made that kind of a part of our contract just to kind of ease them into the process. And I do think twos can struggle. With therapy, especially if they haven't been in therapy before, they may need know that they need help and know that they need to be there sitting in the room, but be very uncomfortable with the focus being on them and not really know what to do without data coming from the other person.

About how they're doing, what they need, how they should be in the room with the therapist.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know, so they're really like, when we are challenging them and saying, listen, you're the one that we're going to focus on. You're the one that all the attention is going to be on. They don't know what to do with that. It's like kind of a little disorienting for them to be the focus and to not be getting that feedback about.

You're doing a good job or I really like you or, you know, like we're, we're vibing, you know, as the kids, the kids, yeah, the last thing that I'll say just very specifically as an eating disorder therapist. I have never had a two in my office that hasn't believed this belief that I'm about to say. They believe that the way their body looks is either going to keep somebody in relationship with them or separate and disrupt a relationship.

And so, Then managing how their body looks through, like, exercise or diet or whatever is like, really important because that is threatening to whether they will have the relationship, whether people will love them or not and I have never sat in a in a session with the two that didn't believe that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Do you know if that's the case for different genders? TBD. I'll get back with you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's really good. Okay, let's talk about type threes.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I don't find a whole lot of threes in my practice because they're often looking for coaches. Unless they're dragged into couples therapy and even then kind of things kind of flame out because. Yeah. The either the shape shifting nature of the three and trying to like look good in front of the therapist or they're like, this is not moving fast enough.

Like, let's go or feelings are too slow. Like, why are we bogging down the process? And so I, I, when I've worked with threes, I like, I feel like there's like a very small window in the beginning where I need to say a very concise version of why the Enneagram is important. And how their type 3 pattern fits.

So that I can, like, map out the sequence. And that we're right here, so this section in the middle might feel like a waste of time. But this is actually the fastest way to get there. And because of that window closes, then I'm like, I don't know if they'll just leave and they don't know if it was actually useful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I had every single 1 of those bullet points listed. So I agree. I do think that 3s can, whether they're coming, you know, is 1 thing, but I think they can be a little bit of a flight risk. It's like they've, they've worked just enough to find a little bit of relief. And then they, they're gone cause that patient is real that they have a, they really struggle with that.

The only other thing that I would say is like, if you've been working with the 3 and they've revealed some behaviors to you that aren't, you know, like, super pretty behaviors that they are really struggling with, they're probably not going to bring them up again. And so like, you have to be the one that kind of intentionally checks in with them about that.

Clients who struggle with porn or addiction or, you know, any other things, cheating. And so I have to be the one that's like, Hey, how are you doing with that? Cause they're not going to bring it up again.

Beyond Achievement: Uncovering the True Self of Enneagram Threes Through Relationships & Vulnerability

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. The threes that I've had in, in my office one day, Therapy can become another subcategory of their performance of their like, I want to accomplish something here.

And so they can show up as very on task and as very like, Oh, you did. Wow. You've accomplished all these things. You've done all these things, or, wow, you've done so much work, and a lot of, I've got a lot of circling back with them that I do and actually, what I've found really interesting with my three clients is family therapy or some type of family or couples where you're seeing them in the relationship where, where oftentimes they're not feeling as competent or there is right.

Something that's happened. And that's been, that's been probably the most revealing, you know, of seeing what's, what's there in a three and then also where I've seen so much healing as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. I'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so, it's so valuable. What, I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're. So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. 'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so valuable. What I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just, just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're.

Dealing with them, because a lot of times that friction will be in their relationships because they'll be working so hard and that's what it will be that their spouse or their kids will feel neglected.

They're burnt out all those things and as a self press 3 kind of like a 1 kind of like a self press for like, we can be very like masochistic, very like. Just grinding, grinding, grinding, and no one knows that anything's wrong under the surface.

So it takes a lot for me to actually show if there's something wrong.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): When something you just said, Tyler, with The threes I've gotten to work with and I've, I've had a handful that have just come, you know, to improve. Two things. One is generally when there's like a pretty decent sized stressor to that happens during our relationship, that therapy totally jettisons into something different.

Really starts to get to the heart of things, but almost like with a seven, you, sometimes there needs to be kind of a catalyst, whether it's someone else in the room or a marriage that falls apart or a relationship or a job that falls apart that was really on their milestone benchmark list, that they really begin to do the actual feeling work that is more balancing for them.

And the other thing is there's so much, and this is heart triad, there's, They want to achieve in work and in relationships. There's such a tension I see with threes of succeeding in marriage and family and succeeding in jobs and that sort of work life balance, tension that they have to find at some point.

And I think that's been really neat to watch. They have such big, you have such big hearts, not just trying to climb the ladder, you know, at your job. You also want to be the best dad or the best. Or, you know, I appreciate that tension for threes.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great thoughts, Leslie. Yeah. I think that's just helpful to, for threes to help us normalize getting help, counseling, that just part of the process of life that you're not a failure, or doing something wrong.

It's, it's normal. That's really helpful to have that people remind us of that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So in the Bible for therapists, the DSM that highlights all these mental health disorders, whatever, in the personality disorder section, there's basically a go to personality disorder for all of the nine types, except for type three.

And I think that's partially because the United States is a very three ish 3 ish, 8 ish culture, and there's a lot of image orientation, things like that. And so. And I'm also, you know, in the Silicon Valley, which is I think very geared towards threes, like the social context really matters in that if a three has shapeshifted into being the successful persona, according to their immediate context, they're not going to be able to see that their personality patterns themselves are an issue.

That's why everyone else usually complains about the three instead of the person realizing it for themselves. And so there are certain professions like, anyone who has a public, platform or a pulpit who thinks that they're doing really well, not knowing that that's actually reinforcing their ego structure.

And so I think it's important for different organizations like communities, churches, whatever, to recognize that. It is a magnet for certain personalities. And that when they shine, that's actually their ego talking. It's not really who they are. And that's part of the reason why it's so hard for the threes to actually get help because they don't know that they're struggling.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I totally agree with that, Joanne. And I wish I could elaborate on that, but, for the sake of time, we'll keep moving here, but I think you said enough really helpful things for, for threes. Okay. Let's, let's move to type fours. What do you want to say about type four?

Joanne, do you want to jump in as a type, as our type four?

Therapy as a Playground: Challenging Enneagram Fours' Ego Trap and Shifting from Introspection to Action

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I mean, in fours fashion, I'm going to say something controversial. So, disclaimer, I think therapy, psychotherapy itself is a fours playground. Because therapy is designed in helping people focus on their internal world and their thoughts and feelings and their past and their trauma and all that kind of stuff.

And to like, you know, really do all this intersectional work that fours know how to do for free. They can do it on their own time. And so I think the trap for fours is that they seek therapy and like end up becoming the therapist's favorite client because the therapist doesn't need to do much work because the four clients already there doing the things that a therapy client is supposed to do.

And I think there's kind of this feedback loop that happens where the four client doesn't necessarily get healthier. Because their ego pattern is just playing itself out in therapy. And so it's important for therapists to know that is the bias that's baked into the profession of therapy, kind of like how coaching can be very like three ish, eight ish, and that my style as a therapist has changed over time to be more coaching like, because what a lot of for clients need is not more focusing on feelings and dredging up all the gunk.

But to get their asses in gear and to like, say, Hey, these things you think is not available to you. And that's why you're struggling so much, partially because you've identified with being a suffering person. But what if you actually have good things readily available to you already? It's not out there somewhere and maybe the only thing that's needed is for you to actually like, Map out the concrete steps and break it down into smaller pieces and actually follow through with those steps in the type one ish Aero type way not a lot of fours are up for that And so in that sense, I think it takes some discernment on the therapist part to recognize like what's the nature of client?

I'm working with here. If there are four are they here to reinforce their identity as a suffering person? Or do they recognize the trap that they're caught in and they want something different? Because if, if that's the case, we need to not do therapy as well. It's traditionally been, we actually need to do more action orientation and more body work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of, uh, fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at, at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I, I agree with all of that. Like, I think that my job. Working with four is to help them like organize their thoughts and emotions because they can just sit there and swirl And go down deep into them and my job and i'm good at it because i'm a one and that's what I do It's like these go here these go here these go here and now we're gonna now we need to make a plan. You know like holding them accountable to the action um, because I think they The other piece and you touched on this, but like they over identify with their feelings so much like sometimes they really fear any kind of healing.

So it's like, hey, what if we aren't this depressed person anymore? Or what if we aren't like, Really riddled in the shame what then, you know, they don't know who they would be because they over identify with those feelings so much that it can, like, even just imagining a place where they don't experience that is really hard and familiar.

And the other thought was, they, whether they have it or not, they can present as looking like they have ADHD. And attentive type because they can get so distracted by all the shiny objects. And because they are repressed doing, they don't get a lot done and they struggle with like motivation to do ordinary tasks.

And that's what I see a lot. And my clients is. It's like, whether they actually do have ADHD or not, sometimes I just treat them as if they do. And it usually works.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This is, this is so good. Do you guys find that force? Do they, do you feel like they're so introspective that they don't need therapy?

Or do they kind of, once they get into therapy, like type ones, they kind of stay in therapy for a long time? What, what have you guys observed?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Introspection is not self awareness. If they keep recycling the same thing over and over again. Yep. They're more self focused She's so part of it. You're a little

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): echo chamber.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah. Yeah, and so focusing on relationships, I think is an important way in To the self, to the fours work, because other people are in the floor fours slash zone. So there's a lot of this like push and pull dynamic or like pursuer withdrawer dynamic where like, kind of depending on what type of the other people are, if it's, let's say a group context, like work or community, family, church, whatever, it's like, Being the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, like exile, whatever.

There's kind of like a social role piece to the four. And then if it's more of like a one on one relationship, it's like, like magnets, like that switch back and forth. If the person's closed, they get bored and they want the drama and the intensity because they're intensity junkies. And so they're like, I don't want, I don't want to be around you.

Or like, I don't deserve to be around you. And then when the person's far away, I was like, Oh, I missed you so much. That whole thing. So I think because relationships are more concrete than existential, you know, deep purpose, meaning oriented topics where, you know, force can have ideas of the people they're in relationships with and there's the actual people involved.

So sometimes like inviting in their partner or their family member might be helpful so the therapist can see, Oh, like. I had this whole idea. Of this person based on how the four describe them. And now I see this person as they actually are. And there's a world of a difference.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. Introspection is not self awareness.

That is really a good statement.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Fours will get offended by that though. I'll just give you a heads up.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, before we go to fives, I, I just want to say, I do appreciate all the fours watching and the, those who are therapists, you know, you look at guys like Dr. Kurt Thompson and other fours who are just leading voices.

Cause they, it's just, they get the internal world there when they're healthy. They're just, Prophetic in our culture, uh, and really helpful, especially right now, since post COVID, since there's just a boom of people that are needing help and coming to you guys. So we, yeah, I, I really appreciate the fours and I want them to hear that before we, before we transition to fives.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Very short. Self preservation fours are the fours that don't look like fours. They look like all the other types. Depending on their mood. And the main piece for them is that they're the ones who suffer silently solo and they get mistyped a lot and sometimes get turned off by the Enneagram because of that.

And so for self pressed fours, they need, their growth path involves Practicing more of the traditional four ish behaviors, like complaining more often in real time to more people, which feels like pulling teeth, but it's absolutely necessary for them to recognize just how much they're struggling outside of this idea of, I need to be a strong person who can withstand a lot of things.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good, Joanne. Thank you. All right, let's transition to fives. What do you guys have for fives?

I don't see many fives unless they're brought in for a marital. So I'm, I'm curious. About the rest of you and your experience with fives.

Breaking Down Barriers: Navigating the Emotional Guard of Enneagram Fives in Relationships

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I would agree with that. Leslie, when I, when I see fives coming in, it's with a partner, often, and it's when I, when I think about attachment styles, I think about that avoidant attachment style.

So you've probably got an avoidant attached person, the partner that's fucked any room five, and then you've got them paired. Maybe with an anxious style and they activate each other and they're coming in to kind of work on that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And man, just the one triggering the other triggering the other. Yeah.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I've noticed you just doing Ingram work, not as a therapist. It's really hard to get them to open up because of the privacy. They have such good boundaries and they don't want me talking about the Enneagram a lot of times because it feels like I'm getting to their reading their mail, jumping over the fence, getting into the castle and can very, very uncomfortable.

And so that's interesting to hear you guys kind of say that you've experienced a little bit of that in therapy as well, that it's kind of hard to get, get over the wall or those privacy fences.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. My experience with fives. I've, I've seen a couple and you won't get the full picture until you've been working with them for like a year and then they'll drop this bomb on you and they're like, Oh my God, everything makes sense.

Now it's like this really pertinent piece of information. And then you finally get the full picture and then you're like, all right, now we can do some work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Oh, my goodness.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It happened to me with one of my fives I was working with recently. I was like, why have we never talked about this?

And she's like, you know. She never asked. She knows the Enneagram too. So we kind of had a good laugh about it.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Besides like relationship issues, professionally fives can struggle a lot. Because they spend so much time in their head and don't take a whole lot of action being actually repressed, like they can mull over something in for forever and then make a decision kind of more reluctantly because there's like a deadline or like stuff like that.

And so they might extend a whole lot more mental energy than the task actually requires. So that's been a struggle that I've. seen quite often and um, either teammates at work or spouses get super frustrated because like there's this delay effect.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Leslie, I think you were going to share something in. And then I also want to hear from you guys if there's any like general anxiety disorder or if there's any other disorders that you see with fives.

I would be curious to know what you see.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Well, I was just going to say, similar to Joanne sharing about, um, the space and the time need. I see a lot of fives that need the encouragement to be allowed to answer questions off the cuff, which is very uncomfortable for a lot of fives. They would prefer to speak accurately and accuracy takes time and reflection and information. And so being allowed to say, you can change your answer down the road. We're not holding you to this. I would just love to hear what you are. able to track or notice and you can circle back anytime it's okay to not quite get it, but there's this, there's just a tension around speaking off the cuff for a lot of fives and therapy is so in the moment so often.

And I think that I've seen that barrier.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. One thing I've noticed with my own mother is a type five is maybe this is Like the, like share with the ones, they, they're looking for the perfect therapist like I know for my mom, my mother is a five and a wonderful five. There's only like a particular kind of person that she'll go to.

And so maybe is it a little bit like that too? Does it maybe fives have a hard time of going to a therapist that they view as maybe competent or, You know, I don't know if you've seen that, but I was just thinking about that off the top of my head.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I wonder if there's a conflict between what they want and what they need when they're looking for a therapist.

What they, what they're wanting is someone who's right, as intellectual as they are, can kind of recite things to them, can lay it out very, um, rationally and logically, but maybe what they need is someone who can sit there and hold space and invite the emotion, invite the questions, invite uncertainty, and let that be a safe place for them to feel that.

But I think there's a conflict there.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): If there's any further thoughts, you can jump in. Otherwise let's move to type six.

Embracing the Pendulum: How Naming Duality Brings Freedom and Clarity to Enneagram Sixes

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): This is my number. I can jump in and say something since I'm a six and I've done a lot of therapy, on both sides of the chair. I really think being allowed to name, and this is how the Enneagram changed my life and it felt again, like kind of somebody had put Jumped into my backyard and had been stalking me and all that exposure was, was challenging.

But to name these dualistic experiences of having some love hate for things, having some fear and courage for things, having this extreme dependent times and extreme independent times, almost showing up like disorganized attachment, if you're familiar with kind of the sort of bifurcation of, of both anxious and avoidant styles.

And there's just a lot that feels kind of like this internal turmoil. And until a lot of sixes get any, Enneagram language, they can just feel kind of crazy. Anything from paranoid to, bipolar to, I mean, just to have somebody name this internal phobic to counter phobic continuum in a way that's safe and feeling seen and loved in that and where the gifting is in that, I think, is is huge for sixes.

And it's been really important for my own freedom, my own work to not feel like I am two different people, even though I can experience these extreme differences and this back and forth. That's really good. Leslie.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, Leslie, I'm married to a six, so I wish I would have heard that 18 years ago to know that I was marrying a, a bundle of opposites who could, you know, swing on a pendulum and.

And to just show compassion and have empathy for that and come alongside them and not, not freak out about it.

I wonder if one thing that gets outsourced by sixes is power and authority, disconnecting from their own power and authority, projecting it outwards, and then someone else takes on that power and authority.

And then the six, depending on the subtype, have different ways of interacting with the projected person. So having this sometimes conflictual relationship with authority figures or like completely fusing and aligning with them and that because of that the growth path for six is involved Recognizing that a lot of their mental activity or their anxiety or whatever comes from them having disconnected from their own power their work is to Bring that back, take ownership, make a decision, be decisive, and then own the outcomes of their decision knowing that they can make new decisions along the way so that they don't need to make this huge big decision up front that might set them off on a forever path and having more boldness and courage to face reality.

Each moment for what it is.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, just saying to sixes, what do you want in this situation? What are you thinking? What are you hoping for? What's been working for you? What's not been working for you? Anything that they can name on their own. Cause we're, we're a both and. We are a flight risk cause we get suspicious that you're seeing something wrong with us.

And we are over relying on authorities. And so there's kind of this, um, challenge there. We don't want to over rely on a therapist authority. We need to develop that gut centered self attachment. But then we also don't, we can be a flight risk if we feel unsafe or we perceive something is unsafe in the relationship.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): The one thing that I'll say about working with sixes is that, you know, they, because they're thinking dominant and thinking repressed. They are really good at rationalizing a lot of their fears and all of their worst case scenarios and They do really value their ability to kind of scan the horizon And so like a therapist does have to be very gentle and they're challenging of those like thinking patterns because A six identifies with them very strongly.

And so if you're like, hey, that's not totally real, or that's not totally a great way of thinking, that, that can be really challenging for the therapeutic relationship. So you have to be really gentle in how you challenge some of their anxieties and some of their fears.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think to Leslie's point, and then what, what you shared.

Whitney, that's just me talking, not as a therapist, cause I'm not one, but just from experience of having, you know, maybe being married to a six and then also having a counterphobic six son, there's lots of conversations about authority, and I'm not sure if that plays out in therapy with, with sixes of like, maybe, you know, kind of directing your attention towards some of those issues in their life and helping them work through issues of authority, like being, uh, overly trusting of authority.

Like I know my wife is very trusting of me. It makes me makes me wonder sometimes like I think she's she's leaning on me too much or trust me too much. Like she's fighting for me like an eight. And I'm like, I don't know if I deserve that. And or she should be doing that. She's just so like loyal, you know, to me.

And then my son is just, you know, rebel kind of as a counterphobic six, just rebels against all authority, even, and he's like a master rationalize, rationalize, or you know, he finds ways to get out of being under my authority.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It also sounds like your son has a seven wing. He's able to figure out how to get out from under your authority pretty easily or quickly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I don't know. I mean, it feels like he acts as it's both pretty well. Anything else, uh, observations on sixes? Oh, go ahead, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I was just going to say, as you said, authority, I really thought of the word safety. And I think that is, that is what authority and like that's the testing of authority and the counter is a counter phobic, right?

That pushes against the is really wanting to know that they're safe, that they're going to be safe right. In these, in these relationships in life. And, and when I when I'm working with sixes, I think that's part of the work that I do. Even like, Hey, what's what makes you feel safe in this room?

Right? Like kind of building up that internal sense and intuitive sense of safety and power, Joanne, like that there's, they can hold that sense or what gives them that sense on their own apart from. These outsourced source of power

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): lines, like moving away from polarization and more integration that they can be steady and exposed to risk all at the same time, that one does not negate the other, but it's more like knowing how to rest in that in between

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): and build up the tolerance for feeling unsafe sometimes, because.

Yeah, it is not a safe. This is not a safe world in a lot of ways. It's not guaranteed, right? And so building the eat and I love your, like, what is safe for you? How do we create that? But then at the same time, building the tolerance around not always feeling safe, but feeling connected and embodied, like Joanne was saying, that's so important.

Then the more you, the more sixes trust their gut, the more they can weather unsafe times, unsafe or truly unsafe experiences.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This has been great guys, talking about issues, authority, safety, like you mentioned, Eden, helping them to feel safe. No, you know, a lot of sixes struggle with, with anxiety.

And so helping them with that and helping to give them compassion for outworking of their strength of protecting of seeing what could go wrong in order to protect Their loved ones. And so that they feel like they're hardwired with vigilance, uh, for a positive reason to, to protect. And you can see why they would get anxious.

That vigilance is starting to get out of hand a little bit, but just to be a source of. Bring a sense of reassurance and comfort to them to help them to realize that they're not the problem, that this is, there's not something wrong with them, is, is incredibly helpful. Okay, should we, let's move to type sevens.

Navigating the Painful Paradox: Understanding Enneagram Sevens and Their Unique Relationship with Hardship

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): That hard is harder for sevens. That is my internal mantra. And I believe it and I feel for them in it.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Does anybody want to build off of that? Hard is harder? What you mean by that, Leslie? Or or anything you want to, else you want to share?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, what I mean by that is the tolerance for suffering, if it hasn't been, been built and it gets built in different ways, and often it gets built in ways you didn't sign up for, but the tolerance for pain, the tolerance for hard things for, taking responsibility for themselves, for moving away from satisfaction and demand from.

moving away from more is more. It just seems to me that their capacity and tolerance around suffering is just very challenging for them. Very, if it doesn't, if it can't kind of be moved forward quickly or bypassed with, information or something, it's, it's just so hard. To weather, a lot of the pain of just suffering of various kinds.

So to me, I really do feel for them that the hard feels a lot harder, um, than maybe some of us might approach hard. And

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I would almost say it's like, they're not even experiencing the suffering. So it's almost like they're not, they haven't like built a tolerance. There's so much compartmentalization of the suffering.

I'm married to a seven, so I, I can talk all day about what goes on with the seven. In my experience, sevens do have a lot of addiction. There's a lot of suicidal ideation, sometimes even suicidal attempts, can have a lot of anxiety, but a lot of anger at the same time. As a therapist, you will need to catch their reframing at like every turn.

Because you'll say something and challenge them and then they'll bring something else up to kind of negate what you said. And it's very rational and logical, but you gotta, you gotta catch them in it. Cause like you were saying, Tyler, like about your son, which was what was making me think that, you know, that seven wing, like they're so good.

At arguing and coming up with all different kinds of reasons about why something will work or, you know, whatever their, whatever their side of the argument is, they're so sophisticated and so quick at being able to come up with arguments for their side. And that is one of the reasons why it's really hard for them to be for them to change.

And even to be motivated to change and like, they do have to have some internal motivation or it's not going to happen. Like external motivators don't really do it. You know, I'm often telling my clients or even my clients who have 7 children, you know, like. You can try to give them all the consequences you want, like, life ultimately is going to be what teaches them those lessons, those like, unchangeable situations that they can't just negotiate themselves out of, those are the things that are going to be motivating to them, and Finally give them some kind of internal motivation for change.

They can have a lot of difficulty making life decisions. They can have difficulty caring for themselves. And I honestly think because they are, you know, that they're repressed and feeling, and they have no. intuitive line or access to feeling and emotions like emotion education and awareness is a non negotiable treatment goal.

Like, sometimes they will say that they know what emotions are, but like, do they actually experience them and emote them and talk about them with their loved ones? Like that takes so much work for a seven to be able to do and it takes a lot of patience for them as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Those are good thoughts, Whitney.

So what, when do, when does a seven show up in your guys office? What's, what's happened? Can you speak to that? Is it an addiction?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Sometimes I think it's like the people in their lives that are like, we can't do this anymore. Like you have got to do something, you know, a lot of times sevens will Work their way into a relationship where the other people are changing so that they don't have to change other people are kind of picking up the slack or enabling their behaviors in a lot of ways and so a lot of times it is like the people in their lives are like listen we're not going to do that anymore and having to hold that firm firm boundary with them. That's when I see them or addiction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): for sure.

I like thinking about sevens and the context of the idealist triangle along with ones and fours, like the three legged stool. We need all three legs to be even. It kind of like also overlaps with like the internal family system model of like the ones being the grownup, the fours being the teenagers and the sevens being the kids, but we have all of them, regardless of our type.

And when we overly rely on one leg of the stool and we underutilize the other ones, then things are just going to fall apart at some point. And so the piece that I think sevens outsource to other people, suffering responsibilities, type four, type one. And so like somebody else in their life probably occupies those positions, even if they're not ones and fours, like, there's a lot of sevens on relationships with very responsible people and they get, they get resentful.

So, you know, drag the seven into calls therapy or whatnot. But up until then, part partners or family members are the ones who are just putting in so much. And that is that external motivation like they're getting sevens are getting all this pressure from the outside because they themselves don't want to do it.

It's not personally important to them. They just need to wait out storm of the other person's complaints and eventually the person's going to give up and they're just going to do it themselves until the relationship gets so strained that the person who's been kind of nagging or whatever. It's like, I ain't doing this anymore.

I'm out. And then all of a sudden, the seventh, so I was like, well, where'd you go? And then they have all these bills to pay and like things that they completely neglected. So I think, I think a lot of times the way to get a seventh attention is that rock bottom experience, either through addictions or divorce or whatever.

They lose their job, where they don't have any more options literally available to them. And if the seven happens to make their way into therapy and they're open because they have no other options and life has already fallen apart, I like using the metaphor of the human body made of flesh and bone. If you have no structure in the human body and the, you know, it's just a bag of skin and organs on the floor, that person's not living.

In the same way that a person who's all bones and no flesh is not living either. So, structure, order, organization, responsibility, the things that the seven resists actually bring about the very life force that makes life as beautiful as it is. So, if sevens are seeking freedom, to thinking that freedom equals no limits, then they're going to paint themselves into a corner where they're completely restricted.

The opposite of which is if they actually choose limits and self limits, self imposed limits, which is basically taking responsibility. Then they have all these options available. So I think like there's some part of like maybe mentally or intellectually, like mapping that out for them saying like, I know you want freedom.

I want that for you too. Let's not get into a power struggle between the service and the client, but how can you actually give real freedom for yourself? Yeah. By voluntarily opting into some of these responsibilities. I think the power struggle piece is pretty big with sevens because they're very good at weaseling their way out of it.

And so I think it's important for therapists to not get it caught up in that either By becoming the next nagging person. So having a more neutral like more passive. Sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good Joanne some really deep and profound thoughts there as we move to type X, we have to keep moving here and we have two more types, but I'll just make a note that.

You know, my, for, if you're, if you have a friend or family member or partner, that's assertive type, like a three, seven, or eight, or maybe a five, who doesn't want to open up. It's okay to, to, to call them out and say, Hey, I'm not okay with this anymore. This behavior, we need to go and get help. I, you know, I didn't want to get help in my marriage was struggling.

You know, maybe a four or five years in the marriage, but my wife has a six had the enough courage to say, to come out and say, this is not okay. You're working too much. You're always listening to hundreds of podcasts, filling your mind, like there's no space for me. There's a, this is a problem and she was, she will, she was able to do that as a six for nines, you know, and other times it might be harder to, to say that so we're just giving old permission here to, to come at the threes like me or the sevens or eights, if you're in married to an assertive type, or no assertive type, and it's just.

It's harder because they have more power, more energy and, but to have permission to call them out and say, Hey, we need to get some help. We'll keep you from getting stuck and so have the courage to, to get them into, to the counseling office. Okay. With that said, let's move now to the eights. What do you guys want to share about the eights?

What do you guys see?

Embracing the Power: Navigating the Intimidation and Progress Anxiety of Working with Enneagram Eights

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I love working with eights. Um, I didn't think I would because as a six, I can be intimidated by powerful frames, frameworks, words, energy, dominant energy, that kind of thing. But I, I really enjoy working with eights, but something Joanne said, I see it, you said around threes and I think it's similar with being able to describe, this is kind of what the counseling process is.

This is what you may be frustrated by, but just know that you can get through that. We're going to get to this kind of outcome. I feel like aides in my caseload are the most likely to wonder if we're making enough progress or if they have enough of a sense of our, are we doing the things we should be doing with our time or there's just a lot of that evaluative presence around outcomes, progress.

And so I think like you said, outlining some of the ups and downs of this a linear experience can be helpful to validate for them, but it isn't going to be, maybe that linear and so, um, to normalize that early. And empathize with that early.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Leslie, I love what you said about like, when it's coming to the room and the dominant energy, I know immediately when an eight comes to the room, because you, I feel that wave of intimidation.

Right. And you're like, okay, here we are. Right. Like, gotcha. Right. Like and, and then being able to, I think in my attachment work as a therapist, I understand that as this is. Take this as this is how people outside of this room can experience this individual. And this is an experience that they have, and they, and they have that experience of people reacting against this intimidation.

And that may be part of why they're coming into the room.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good Eden.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): In my experience working with eights, their future orientation is often what is giving them so much trouble, like within in relationships or even with themselves. Like they have a hard time like stopping. And pausing and attending to like their own physical pain or their own emotional pain because they're doing dominant they can like shut all that off and just like get the job done and move on to the next thing so that anything like any pain is often cannot be attended to.

And so. Having them slow down is really important and the thing that I see sometimes is like, we'll talk about a problem or an issue, especially an emotional one or something that's causing some kind of relational conflict. And then the next session, we don't talk about it again. And I'm like, Hey, we gotta go back around to that thing.

I know you've already moved on to, like, the next problem or the next issue, but like, this is, this is a big deal. We need to. We need to keep giving this attention, um, and they sometimes don't like that, but it is that, that future orientation. She's like, okay, well, that's done. And now I'm moving on. And now I'm going to get on with the next thing.

I also see them struggle a lot at work and like, it's the same struggle with authority, but there's this, I think, very different because they often don't see an authority figure that's worth following. And I think that's or that's doing the job that they think should be done. And so just that like conflict they see so much with their bosses or like their organization at large, doing the things that they don't agree with can often cause a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, um, a lot of just dissatisfaction.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, that's a good observation, Whitney. That you might be talking with an eight about, yeah, work dynamics, bosses, authority figures. That's really helpful. And going back to what you said, Eden, about the privilege of working up close with an eight and seeing some of their emotions and softer side that other people don't get to see that that was really sweet, the eights are, are so great when you can get up close, with them.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): My other son's a type eight. So yeah. You got a lot of energy in that house.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I have a counterphobic six son and an eighth son and I'm a heart type. So I'm just like, just, yeah, yeah. Are you thankful for me? Do you love me? Why are you, why are you mad at me? That's how my, that's how my conversations go.

I realized I'm very high maintenance when it comes to. Meeting, like, love and affirmation back when, yeah, that's good.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I think the action orientation of type eight forward movement for focus, not a whole lot of patience for the nitty gritty details that are like high level visionaries. Like, I just want this, let's get there.

Like what's in the way of why are you causing troubles? Like it's not complaining move. So in terms of like communication style with eights, I think this is a case for across all types when we're interacting with someone of a certain type, the more we double down in our own type, the more intense their patterns get.

On the other hand, if we move closer to them and act like they act generally, then that minimizes the polarization. So talking to an, a, you know, open chest, direct eye contact, like own your own power and engage them directly and get straight to the point. Don't explain a whole lot. Don't apologize. It's like, just.

Say the thing that needs to be said, say the action item, I think that would smooth out a lot of relationships just like off of that. Not all eights are angry all the time. I think that's a misconception. I think they're very big presence, very energetic, very intense. I think that maybe conflict, engagement, colliding with the eight is a form of intimacy.

So when other people pull away and they withdraw the aid, it's like, where'd you go? It comes after them. And then other people like, avoid the aid even further and that's a whole cycle. So, I think it's I think because opposites attract. Those who are in relationship with aids probably need to like, gear up and then actually own their power and strength.

And then the eight doesn't have to be as strong because someone else is doing it. Like even with like leadership, like eights don't sense that anyone else is like a good enough leader that they occupy the space. They don't themselves want to be the leader. And so I think in relationship context, that's a lot of where the eights patterns show up because relationships are in the blind spot of the eight.

And so I don't know if eights would readily. Here, like, in order for you to improve your relationships, therefore, you need to do X, Y, Z, because I don't know if they have the patience for that. But like speaking to them, like, if you want to make a bigger impact in your wife, then you have to know how to work with people.

And that is why it's important to work on relationships. It's kind of like coming in through the back door.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well put Joanne. Okay. Let's, we got to move on to type Nate nines, uh, our last type. So let's, let's do it. Let's finish the, finish the circle here. What do you guys have for type nines?

Waking Up from Numb: Exploring the Hidden Struggles and Somatic Symptoms of Enneagram Nines

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I'll jump in.

First off, my husband's a nine and the nines that I've interacted with in my office as well, there's such a loss of self that there's They they have no idea what they want or they want everything because everything sounds plausible right, and so there's there's kind of aimlessness. Maybe that's there.

I would also say that some nines may never even make it into the therapy office because their mental health symptoms become psychosomatic become enter their body instead of. Their, their mental health, it goes into a different category. So they're going to develop physical symptoms versus emotional symptoms.

I have nines that come in with like heart palpitations that develop or with digestive issues, and they're going to seek out support around that before they even come to a therapist, because that's the issue, not the emotions that have built up in their body.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great, Eden. Yeah. That makes total sense.

Not even being a therapist, knowing that nine suppress their anger, deny their anger, but it's got to go somewhere. And so you're saying it shows up in the body. That's that's really insightful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, they kind of want to avoid anything uncomfortable like uncomfortable emotions physical sensations Anything in relationships, it's uncomfortable.

They really will try to just not be present for it I had a client who gave me some really good analogies for nines and she was like It's like we play possum like something uncomfortable comes up and we're like, oh, bye They just kind of check out and they numb themselves so much. And so I think for nines, a lot of my work is just like honoring the feelings that they have instead of numbing the feelings they can be so hard to get to do any kind of like action oriented therapy work or like creating any kind of change.

So a lot of motivational interviewing. Again, you know, sometimes I have a lot of nines that show some like ADHD type symptoms. So there's a lot of kind of working through some of that. A good thing that I think it was, I think it was Joe Stabile. Suzanne's husband said one time that interesting relationship between nines and ones and anger and sadness, like when a nine is sad, they're actually angry.

And when a one is angry, they're actually sad. And so like nines do kind of tend towards more like depression or sadness. But when you really get down to it, they're probably actually really angry about something. And they've just never attended to that anger or like the boundaries that were violated or them not getting their needs met.

And so they're sad about it, but they're actually really angry. It's just so interesting to be. Kind of delving into that with them and a lot of the, like, kind of what Eden was saying, but also that more 10 tending towards depression do see quite a bit of suicidal ideation with nines as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. That that's.

Very powerful, Whitney, the feelings having come out in sadness, I can see that with some nines to talking a lot about painful experiences in the past and continuing, continuing to talk about them and bring them up over and over again, being sort of sad about it, but it just, this, a loop that never stops.

So that, that's really helpful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. And it's like their orientation to the past is how they define themselves. And so it's hard for them to just process through everything in the past so that they can move forward. They get really stuck. Like you were talking about.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): And great plug for ones too, to realize for yourself when you're angry, to realize that you're really sad so we can have more compassion on our ones.

That's. I've been hearing some things about nines I've never heard before. This is very, there's very helpful for me. Any last thoughts on type nines?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I will just say that I've been encouraging nines to do group therapy. The individual relationship can be really intense for nines cause they don't always want to do that deeper process work or they don't want to go to the anger, which they have to in order to process pain, but group work can feel a little bit like more collaborative and it can also feel like they have some shared space and it's not so intense. On them, and that maybe they can kind of build some camaraderie, with other people. And I've just seen some really big shifts when I've sent clients that are nines to do group work alongside our individual work.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, to piggyback off of that, I mentioned earlier that like therapy itself is a very four ish space, and the four is known as the individualist, and I think that's the opposite for nines. In like blending in and merging with something else to not be a self like usually people think of like sloth as lack of activity there's a lot of action focus.

So I think for nines, it's a disconnection from self like falling asleep to oneself Disconnecting from self agency. So I think of nines like a card neutral gear or as type three. That line is like being the gas pedal and the type six being the brake pedal. You need all three to have a functioning car.

And so inaction is itself an action. And often nine to like say in relationships where I work, find themselves being more kind of reactionary to what others around them do. Not knowing that are the reason why the pressure is applied to them is because they've disconnected from their own initiative Engine, and so I've heard that like the most powerful type in all the Enneagram types is actually type 9, not type 8, not type 1, not the more like assertively known types, but when a 9 taps into their internal world like you better get out of the way. There's no stopping them. So I think a lot of body work is pretty good for better for worse.

I think nines tend to be conduits for energy. Absorbing other people's stuff or absorbing nature's energy and I think in that sense body movement Might be a good way to metabolize some of the uncomfortable experiences more than like top therapy or mental or emotional work.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, tacking on to that, Joanne, I will point my nines to, um, spending time in nature, going to a park, sticking their feet in the earth, you know, having some way of connecting with that animal therapy, right?

Pets can be a powerful resource for nines and then body work too, those are, because there isn't, there's no perspective there to merge to, right? It feels safe in a way. Yeah.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And cause they spend so much of their time being hypervigilant and like assessing other people and perceiving and observing everyone else kind of looking out for conflict.

Like that goes right along with what you were saying, Eden, like if they can tune into their body or nature or animals, like they don't have to be hypervigilant. Be protecting themselves.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): And the hypervigilance is very draining, very draining.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Whitney, I'd heard Suzanne say on, maybe it was in a conversation with me, I can't remember now, I think we were going around and talking about different correlations she had seen with mental health and she'd said like nines, she saw a lot of nines with ADD.

Which is now falls under the ADHD umbrella. And so the non, is it the non attentive kind of ADHD? Is that how you say it? So that's just something to be, to be aware of, uh, when you're working with nines, if you're a therapist. Or like that combined type. To you know, you mentioned Whitney, they can play possum, which is really good, a good illustration.

And just like sixes kind of swing in the pendulum of phobic to counter phobic. Do you guys experience nines is sometimes swing on the pendulum from like playing possum to then making dramatic moves. Do you see any of that that's causing any issues to be aware of? Leslie, you're nodding your head. Can you speak to that?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, I think from session to session, I can see the inertia principle, like whether it's they've been in low energy and so there's tons of low energy in the session or they're in that inertia and there's lots of energy. And I, I think 9th, you know, both. They're one wing and just who they are, there's a lot of idealism.

And so sometimes I say this about nines, I don't know if I'm right, but it's like they can envision things in from a three space, but they can't carry them out. And so I'll see like big endeavors or big words without the work, but like big words about what's going to happen, what they're going to do, what they're going to tackle.

But I know they don't have the energy to match that. But we need to kind of titrate down to something that is doable so they can actually feel self esteem.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. That's helpful. I see some other people nodding, so I must agree with you, Leslie.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I usually at the end of every session with the nine, we have concrete goals that they're supposed to achieve between that session and the next one.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's so good. Whitney and I have, I have a type nine. Book club right now. And one guy just emailed me today saying that he had, he had read through it, but now being in a group with other nines, he's getting so much more out of it because they're challenging each other and spurring one another on.

And so I, I like what you guys said about maybe the group work, or even just being with you, being in a room with somebody else that can hold them accountable, set goals, like you just said, Whitney. That can be incredibly helpful for a nine. So if you're nine, just know that you don't have to do it, uh, by yourself or try to do, do it alone.

So yeah, that's really good. Okay, we're out of time. Please share where we can find you guys online, uh, any resources you want to point us to. Uh, let's, let's start with you, Whitney. I would love for people to continue to learn from you like, like I've learned from you today. So where can we find you?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, so my group practice is Bravehaven Counseling. We're in Richardson, Texas. Um, you can find our website. www.bravehavencounseling.com. And then on Instagram, our Instagram handle is @bravehavencounseling and my individual Instagram is @whitneylpc.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. And all the links you've already given me.

So I'll put them down in the show notes. So people can easily click on those. So you don't have to take any notes right now. Thank you, Whitney. What about you, Eden? Where can we find you?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So I'm counsel out of Charlotte, North Carolina, but I serve Texas and North Carolina when it comes to therapy work with individuals and couples and that practice is insideout collaborative.com. And then I also do attachment coaching with couples and individuals, outside of those States as well. So that there's a little bit about that at insideoutcollaborative.com, but also edenheider.com and my Instagram is @edenheider. And that podcast that has more attachment focused, material is Inside Out Podcast.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. Thanks, Eden. Leslie, remind us where we can find you again.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, just Leslie Bley Counseling. I have a team of therapists under me here in Austin. I'm also licensed in Missouri, so Texas and Missouri residents. If you're a therapist, you can find resources like Enneagram for Counselors and the Counselor Vitality Groups that are all on that same website.

And then I'm also enneagramconsultant.com for more professional use of the Enneagram with teams and companies that want that kind of lens for understanding their staff.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great. Thank you, Leslie. And thanks for all the, yeah, the work that you've been doing and creating community for other counselors and therapists, that's, that's been really beneficial, and Joanne, where can we find you?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, with my Enneagram therapist hat on, I'm in California in the Silicon Valley, and I have a freebie guide, The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types. because each of the types have different ways of dealing with the emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, and NUMB. I'm also a feelings translator on the side, and that's beyond the state of California as well.

And I built a school about feelings, and in a way that's not just for heart types. Uh, so that people of whatever types can recognize that emotions have a central spot in helping us be more well rounded. They have a logic of their own and there are some action items that go along with them. So, and you can find me at intelligentemotions.com or on Instagram @intelligentemotions.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Fascinating, a feelings translator, that's, that's incredible. And like feelings resource. That's why I appreciate having all of you on the, your different anywhere, you're going to have times, you're all have different strengths. And I just want to thank you for, for joining me.

I know it's really hard. You're all professionals. You have clients. It's hard to find a time to get us all together, but we did it. And I'm so thankful for you. And I know those watching are thankful as well to have learned from you. I know I learned from something, something from each of you guys that I didn't know.

Before, and so this was really helpful to me and I know it's helpful to the Enneagram enthusiasts out there, the therapists out there. So thank you so much for just carving out this space to be a blessing to so many people. And a reminder to those watching, make sure to go back and check out all the other panels today.

The heart types, the head types, so many great panels to listen to today to really get a feel for all the Enneagram types when it comes to their own. Personal mental health stories. So make sure to go and check those out today. And if you don't have time to watch all the panels today, you can get the all access past, which will give you lifetime access to all the panels and all the sessions and all the transcripts, for this whole, any summit.

So if that's interests you, make sure to go check out that, but so much for joining us today. Before you head over to the next interview, the next panel, remember to do two things, like seek support. And share compassion because you are not alone.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Enneagram Heart Types Panel: Type 2, 3, and 4

(Scroll down to see the transcript or to get the All Access Pass!)

I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this video, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Eden Hyder (Type 2)

• Stephanie Cross (Type 2)

• Jordin James (Type 3)

• Amanda Nagy (Type 3)

• Joanne Kim (Type 4)

• Boonie Sripom (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Real-Life Stories of Growth

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Welcome to the Heart Types Panel here on the Enneagram and Mental Health Summit. I have six panelists with me, two type twos, two type threes, and two type fours. And the goal of this panel is to supplement the 25 main sessions here on the summit with real life stories. And these brave individuals and coaches with me are a blessing to us because they all are going to share a little bit of their story about their own mental health journey and talk about it through the lens of their Enneagram type.

And so I have here with me, here are the six panelists. I'll start with the type twos. We have Eden. She is a licensed therapist, mom, and psychology teacher out of Charlotte, North Carolina. She is an expert in attachment and works with couples and individuals as a relationship coach across the country.

Eden also specializes in treating eating disorders in teens and adults. Currently she is, she has a thunderstorm, in her city. The next two is Stephanie Cross. She lives in Lexington, North Carolina with her husband. She has worked as a writer and editor for the last 10 years.

When she's not working, go find her at the gym, traveling, exploring outdoors and hanging out in coffee shops and working on her newest interest, writing a young adult fantasy novel. Okay. We got the threes up. We have Jordin James. She is a trauma kid who has learned how to feel genuinely happy and safe in the world again.

Her home base is Portland, Oregon, but she works and lives all over the world. She has a coach who helps narcissistic abuse survivors feel safe and happy in relationships. Amanda Nagy is a certified Enneagram coach, psychology instructor, and health coach. She has three years of experience in coaching, 17 years teaching high school and college students, and 13 years of school counseling.

Amanda is a Texas native, but has lived in Idaho for the last 22 years. And last up, we have our type fours. We have a Boonie Sripom. She is a personal development coach for sensitive and creative individuals, especially geeks and gamers. She also offers worksheet workshops and consults on supporting neurodivergent learners to therapists, educational organizations, and parents.

And she lives in California. And then we have Joanne Kim. Lastly, she is an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in Silicon Valley. And she helps people discover and grow beyond their emotional reactive patterns, massage out their painful, emotional knots that keep them stuck and transform their biggest feelings into their greatest superpower.

Okay. Thank you so much y'all for being with me. I just want to applaud your courageous hearts and wanting to share a little bit of your story so that we can all learn and know that we're not alone. So I just want to thank you right off the bat for joining us today. So without further ado, let's kick things off, with Stephanie.

So would you spend a few minutes, Stephanie, sharing what your diagnosis is or your mental health battle The mental health battle you faced and just a little bit about your story.

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Sure. I'm Stephanie and I am a two. I have struggled with mental health my entire life. First starting with depression and anxiety because I was bullied.

Then growing into, grief over the last year. I lost my brother who was like my happy place, happy person and like biggest offender and protector growing up. So, that sent my two heart into a bit of a tailspin, a little bit of like maybe even an identity crisis there for a little while. And it was so hard as a helper type to be the one who needed help all of this.

And I had no idea how to ask for that, no idea how to ask for what I needed. And it was also a huge struggle to have patience with people who didn't show up the way that I would have and to see that like, man, I didn't always do things the best way, other friends who were grieving and so it's been a huge learning process, a learning curve, um, and obviously like the diagnoses of depression, anxiety, and PTSD, like really play into that as well.

So, that's kind of where I am on my journey. It might be a little bit hard to talk about, but I'm going to try to do my best with that. It's still somewhat fresh. Um, we'll hit the year anniversary, August 25th. So still pretty, pretty new and learning to navigate all of that. But, um, yeah, so I would say as a two feeling very hopeless, I was probably the most difficult thing for sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks, Steph. what have you been doing to, just cope, make it, make it through? Like, what kind of support have you had? Can you just talk a little bit more about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yes. So, one thing I will say is like, we didn't have a huge, like, church community were involved in our church usually, but we were in a transitional period.

We're both kind of starting over in different areas of our lives. So, my husband and I, the biggest thing for us was having a huge family base of support here. We had one person, one precious person that showed up every week for a month with food. And others that would come by and say, Hey, have you been out to see the sunshine today?

Like, that's probably a good idea and would come and pick me up and say, let's go hike. Let's go for a wal, let's go get coffee. Tell me about your brother. Tell me some stories. So I think that's been really one of the most helpful things is the, you know, as a writer, like I believe in the healing power of stories and of telling your story.

So having people come in and ask like, Hey, what are some of your favorite stories about your brother? Like whether they know him or not. And that's been super helpful. That's been a really great way for me to cope. And I also write letters to him. So when I see something that reminds me of him, or if I have a really hard day, or even if our family experiences something new that I know he would have just loved, I will write it down like I'm talking to him and that's been really helpful as far as coping.

I also unfortunately have a couple of friends who lost siblings this year and so we have our own sort of weird sibling grief club and it's like the worst membership ever but I'm really thankful for them, thankful for their openness and empathy. There are also a lot of great grief communities on Instagram and Facebook that I have been a part of that have been really helpful in that journey.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks Steph for just being vulnerable about just going through loss. I know that's really hard. Sure. And I know it for twos, you know, for twos, nines and sevens, being a part of the positive outlook group, there's a propensity to try to stay positive, through, grief through loss, going through a conflict, try to look on the sunny side.

Have you felt that as a two and then how have you reconciled that with like healthy grieving?

.Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So, I don't know. I think everything just kind of got obliterated. Like, when I got that phone call, it was like, I don't even know who I am right now. I don't know how to feel. So, I don't know that I even really responded, like, in the typical way that a two would.

I guess I did it first, and my husband had to pull me aside and very gently say, like, Hey, I just need you to know, their grief is not your grief. You don't have to feel for everybody else. Like, everybody feels the grief differently. Your parents are going to feel it. And you're going to feel that too, because you don't like to see them hurt, but you have got to take space to feel it for yourself.

But I think for the most part, I, I was very numb and very, I kind of reacted in the opposite way, and really shut down a little bit more. And, then kind of reacted in extremes like later on, but initially right after it was more of a like silent introspective kind of thing.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. And I know for most twos are very active in helping others and they're moving, they're always drawing toward being drawn towards others.

But, and, and I know you, as a friend, you've been one of my editors. I've been really appreciative of you. And you've communicated to me that you've sort of scaled back your work. And so I just find that very healthy. So tell us a little bit about, how you set boundaries to create more space to, to grieve and go through the season, and not overdo it and not try to just work more.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah, sure. Sure. So, yeah, I could have had like, the desire to dive more into work. And I think there is a little bit of that temptation because you don't, when the feelings are so overwhelming, you just don't want to deal with them at all. And I only took two weeks off right after my brother died.

And I honestly think I should have taken a little bit more, but thankfully - again, because I have a wonderful husband, he was like, Hey, I've got us covered. You take the space that you need. If you only want to work five hours a week, fine, we will figure it out. So, I ended up reaching out to clients that I had, you know, current workloads with and just saying, Hey, I'm so sorry I understand if you need somebody else, I can't get this done in this amount of time. And thankfully I had really wonderful clients who were like, absolutely anything you need, we want to work with you. So we'll hang around and just do whatever on your schedule, but as far as just setting boundaries with that, I had to, I had to play around with it a little bit and figure out what I could actually handle.

And I ended up settling somewhere around like four or five hours a day. And I thought that, you know, by this time this year, maybe I would be taking on a little bit more. And I do have days where I do an eight hour day, but it's actually not. It's just not something I'm ready to dive back into. I've learned that I needed to take some space for myself to have gym time and time outdoors every single day.

That's just helpful in general, but especially when you're grieving, it gives me a little bit of uninterrupted time to think, and to really process what I've been feeling. So I'm very grateful for the ability to, like, take a step back and just know that it's, it's all going to be fine.

From Darkness to Light: Jordin's Journey of Healing and Resilience Through the Lens of an Enneagram 3

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you so much, Steph.

We're going to transition to Jordin and her story now, but I just want to let you know if there's anything you, you forgot or things you wanted to share, but, just didn't get a chance to so far we'll circle back and you can share at the end, but, uh, thank you for inviting us.

And to sit with you and your couch right there to hear your story. And I'm just proud of you for some of the steps you've taken to, as a two to set boundaries, um, and to take care of yourself in the midst of loss, I'm just really proud of you. Thank you. Let's, switch to Jordin.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes, thanks, Tyler. Hey, everybody. I am Jordin James. So yeah, mental health has been a real hole that I have had to crawl myself out of starting at the very beginning. My childhood, like many people's childhood was really weird. It was riddled with narcissistic abuse, emotional incest, and a lot of alcoholism.

I didn't know that it was weird until like actually looking back and being like, Oh, you didn't have to worry about inviting friends over because your dad was like, passed out on the couch. Like, oh, I guess that was a little bit weird. And so it's actually really, helps looking back to be like, oh, no wonder I was so sad.

Like, no wonder I was so depressed. No wonder I turned to self harming and suicidality early on when I felt like there was no, there was absolutely no support. Actually it's made my threeness, my Enneagram type threeness make a lot more sense because I remember having the thought back when I was, I don't know, a kindergartner of like, okay, when I go over to my dad's house this weekend, like, I'm not going to make him mad.

Like I am going to be so good. I'm going to do all the right things. I'm going to impress him. And so, so like that chameleoning that threes do was like a life or death kind of technique for me growing up from really early on. And I felt safest when I performed well. Like by far, like if I didn't perform well, my dad raised me to be like this big basketball star, which is another part of my three trauma of always needing to be impressive, but if I didn't play well, I felt like legitimately unsafe, but if I played well, I was safe.

And so like performance was, is not only like an ego thing for me. And I think for most threes, it's also like a fundamental, like safety of existing. And so, growing up, especially in high school, I put a lot of pressure on myself that turned into self harm and suicidality and depression. And, luckily, I don't know what it is.

It's just like this inherent resilience that I have that I just kept going and trying to heal. And, but what I realized is my own three tendencies trying to heal themselves. So like, I would try hard to figure out you know, what's wrong. I would try hard to get to the bottom of, of my pain. I would, you know, so I can root it out and figure it out.

I would try hard to like do all the right things to like be somebody that's healed now. And I was really just like trying to heal my trauma with my trauma and what, like eventually I realized that like my healing, like I don't actually heal myself. Like there is this force of love, there's a lot of different words that you can use for that love, there's a lot of different kinds of love, but there's this force of love that actually wants to do all the healing work for me.

I just have to let it, I just have to like feel my feelings and let love meet me in those feelings and like understanding why I'm feeling my feelings is not a substitute for actually feeling them. Which was really, really hard for my threeness, and it still is, to not just, like, try to do literally anything else other than feel my feelings.

And the other thing that I noticed as being a three and trying to heal my trauma was that threes have this tendency, I for sure do, have this tendency of, like, trying to heal everything in a vacuum. Like I'm going to go behind the curtain and I'm going to like, work really hard and improve myself really hard.

And then I'm going to like, go out and live my life. And then I'll go out and, and show up. And like, I had this, this fantasy that I can heal every, all, I could do all the vulnerable work in private, and then I could come out and like impress everybody. You know, I'll come out when I'm more impressive. And, and much to my dismay, I think it's a flaw in the universe, but.

Healing actually happens when I just interface with life exactly as I am. And like, I let people see me before I feel ready to be seen. And when I let love see me exactly as I am right now and all my mess. And eventually, like, when I, when I started doing that, when I started just going out there and failing, I learned that even in the deepest, like, most barfy pits of failure, that love is still there.

Love is still there. And so, like, failure doesn't actually equal this unsafe, complete abandonment of love. But I couldn't have understood that if I just kept trying to heal without actually, uh, living my life. So, I got really good at healing and I got really good at helping other people do the same thing.

Cause it's just like a, just a different orientation and then love does it all for you. So that's what I've been doing for the past five years now is helping other people, let more love in and let love do the open heart surgery for them.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Beautiful Jordin. I didn't want to cut you off, but I really resonated that as a fellow three. I wrote down, I don't heal myself. That is huge. And the three is listening. We need to hear that over and over again. We can't heal ourselves. That's been a constant theme throughout the summit as I continue to interview people is I don't have a lot of threes and that show up in my office, for whatever reason, threes do.

Think that we can heal ourselves and that we don't need somebody else, but we have to show up and I love, you said, like, meet with love, like have an encounter with love. That's beyond ourself from within ourselves. And I also wrote down, I'll come out, I'll come out of the hole when I'm like more impressive.

And like coming from like ministry world, there was a lot of unhealthy, like Superman Cape stories. Like people would share their story, but it would sound like, and it was very like three, like, like, you know, I was in the trenches of drug addiction and then I, you know, made this change and now I'm back on my feet and I'm a spiritual leader and I'm doing all these things.

And it's like, well, okay. Take the cape off. And just like, let's have some store. Let's research some stories on stage where people were, we're still in the thick of it where we haven't cleaned ourselves up. We haven't seen the results yet. We're just in it. That's really, really hard for us.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes. Yeah. I, I realized that healing actually happens when our vulnerability and love meet.

And like, in order for that to actually happen, that means I have to be vulnerable. It means I have to like, let people know that I'm also human and messy. And that's really hard as a three. That's like shaking in my boots kind of hard.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. Well, that's why this is so powerful to hear your story as a three, because you're, you're giving it like an unvarnished, no Instagram filter kind of version of your story.

And I just really appreciate that. I'm sure a lot of threes I really read are just, Benefiting from like me from hearing your story. So thank you so much, Jordin, and if you forgot anything, you can circle back and, and share here, at the end too.

Okay. Let's transition now to Boonie.

If you could unmute yourself and jump in and share a little bit of your story, we'd love to hear from you.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Oh, gosh, I've just so immersed in other people's vulnerabilities. Let me regroup a little bit.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I love that you're not just thinking in your head. Okay. What am I going to say next?

What am I going to say next? But you're immersed with this, our stories. That's I love that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Fun fact to share with other fours who are considered the special snowflakes. I did dye my hair the day before for this to stand out a little bit. Gotta, gotta be special. Gotta be unique.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I noticed it. It's great. Thank you for noticing.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, I, let's see. I guess the conditions or diagnoses I will talk about are codependent traits, working through personal depression of the four and autism. So I guess I will be perhaps a unique, a double unique flavor of four because of the neurodivergence, but I'm assuming a lot of us are not.

Have some sensitivity traits differences. Anyways, I'm guessing all of us do. It's all a spectrum. And so, let's see, how do I shape this? I know when you reached out, you were talking about this one video that I made. And so I think I'll lean into it that way, where If you look at that video, it was made I think six to eight years ago and my energy, my demeanor, my wholeness was so different from how I am now and I think that's what you were mentioning Jordin earlier about being present in your vulnerability.

I think as a four, we thrive off of being the vulnerable mess, and just being a muck. And that's the only attention that we could ever believe that we deserve. Being seen as and so I doubled down on that identity and presented information as a wounded, highly sensitive, vulnerable person where people would come and try and save me or protect me and feel like, oh, poor you, like, no, I get it.

It's like, I totally understand how you feel, at the same time, because of that, it limited who I was. for a long time. I was able to, here's the gift and the strength of a four, we're able to tap into this raw feeling of how other people are experiencing pain, grief, loss, questioning who they are. And that's for us an ability to tap into the essence, right?

An essence of a person. But because of that, We're stuck in this loop of, I can only feel seen when I am pained. I can only have value because people have shown me and given me attention when I am the sensitive snowflake. And so we're repeating and having this confirmation bias of like, I need to seek out relationships.

I have this antenna now. So the codependent traits is like, I'm seeking out relationships where someone, you know, Is may not be the best for me, but because I am so wounded and I think that I can only be seen as my vulnerable wounded parts, I'm going to seek someone who doesn't understand me. And that's the core wounding of a four, right?

We feel constantly misunderstood. So I'm going to do, I'm going to damage myself even more, find someone who doesn't get me, even though I know they don't get me. Unconsciously, I know they don't understand me. And so I've been in relationships. And, um, the universe has guided me out of that. But in the past, I've constantly been seeking out people and systems and social circles where I would look for that confirmation bias of I'm close to being understood, but they said this one thing, I feel suddenly rejected.

There was this one thing that I did and they misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I'm getting so defensive and overwhelmed. I'm getting emotionally hijacked. I don't think it's worth it. I'm going to now confirm my identity as the outlier, as the alien. I'm going to run away. I'm going to hide. I'm going to withdraw.

And so it's perpetual, this pattern. It's so exhausting. I'm so tired of it. And so like, we do that as a four. And then as my wing kicks in as a five, I will double withdraw and intellectualize of like affirming just the reasoning. So like Jordin said, we're writing the reasons for why. So like, I'm really good at explaining how and why happened, something happened, but to go into it is where the truly healing works.

Right. And so I think that's interesting because like, I'm sure Joanne will probably say something similar where with other types have a difficult time of even acknowledging the darkness and the pain, the depths of their vulnerability. We hold on to it too much where I actually find it a funny life lesson for me as a four to give myself permission to feel joy, like to feel successful and to actually stand out and embrace my light and have people witness me for what I'm actually good at.

Because I've been seen as Eeyore for most of my life. Like I'm just grumpy and I'm sad, but I know there's more of that, but I struggle sometimes where if I go out and have successful moments and then people give me attention for that, is that actually me too? And so there's this integration happening over time, right?

Where it's just like, I don't know if I actually like it. Is this good? This is good feelings, you know? And so I think that's an important part of us as fours where we will double withdraw because it's this shifting of your psyche of if it's so true. You start to lean into your self betrayal and abandonment of self when you realize, Oh shoot, I've done so much of the contribution to me living a life where I have been rejected, misunderstood, and seeking someone to see me.

It's like, Oh my God. And so that's a lot of pausing to withdraw on purpose. And so the intention comes out where instead of me reacting to the moment or the incident that happened where I run away because I have to confirm that I'm misunderstood and unwanted, I don't belong. This time I will withdraw on purpose to reflect on how am I contributing to what has happened?

And is there a possibility that I saw it a certain way? So I just was rereading. Riso, Wisdom of the Enneagram, before they had to prepare, and so there was this one part of like how we feel our feelings so much that we identify with the feelings instead of actually the experience itself. So I, I thought that was a good point.

So fours can really reflect on this, where if something emotional does happen, it's this, do the emotions exist forever? And realistically, maybe for a long time for us, yes. At the same time. Not consistently forever. And so I really want to meditate on that because it is true. There's some things that we don't believe to be true, but when we allow our emotions and cognition to separate.

It gives us an ability to really empower ourselves, and I think that's something that can be a strength, even though as a quiet, you know, moody person, I know I'm always going to be moody. Like, that's the thing that I think is realistic, too. Those are things that are going to, quote unquote, trigger me or make me feel like I don't belong.

But if I separate myself from the emotion and just pause a little bit, I can come back into the circle, the social group that I thought I was rejected from. And that's like the biggest thing, I think. I can share with fours, like, just go back, like, even though you feel like you were rejected and maybe you were feel strong enough to believe that there's something that they can offer you and you can offer them.

It's just like, you cannot constantly feel rejected from the whole world. That's impossible. You know, as a gamer, it's like numbers wise, it's probability. I know that sooner or later, I'll find someone that I can get along with. And so that's what I wanted to share.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I could, I could listen to you all day. This is I just really appreciate you sharing.

And, especially we talked about earlier, my son being on the spectrum. And so I'm just absorbing everything you're saying.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Do I sound like him? Like when he talks about stuff?

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, he's we think he's a type eight. So it's really interesting, seeing kind of the differences and we're gonna have a parenting panel on the summit here.

And we'll be talking about kind of our children and you know, what types we think they may be. You can't always type your kids too young for sure. But I just knowing the Enneagram now for a while, and my son's 10, we think he's an eight. So it's really interesting seeing, some of the, the autism traits and then also the type eight traits.

And how they mingle together. It's very, very interesting. So I'll be talking a little bit more about that on the parenting panel, but I forgot the video that you mentioned. And I just remembered it's the how to defend yourself video that I saw on YouTube. Explain why you, you did that video. Because I think it's, I think it's really important. You said you might not have been in the most healthy space or something like that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): No, I was not.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): But I, I saw it as a positive thing when I saw it. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to have Boonie say that. So what, what do you mean by how, like how you were advocating to others to defend themselves? Like, how have you felt like you needed to defend yourself?

Breaking Free: Embracing Self-Acceptance and Letting Go of Misunderstood Perceptions

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): And so identity is a really big thing for me because I want it reflected meaningfully through the relationships that we have. and the mirroring that I get in this world. It's incongruent in certain ways because if I say something or if I present a certain way and someone will look at me or say something, it's like, that's not congruent to how I see myself.

But if someone's joking about me with my autistic, like, traits or the things that I like, all of a sudden, wow, this world is completely different. And now it's kind of like a shattering of my perspective because Why is it so different? Why is mock me being mocked? Why is it made fun of so much? Or even the people in my life who were part of my life, the things that I did do and like, they were embarrassed to be around me because it was so abnormal.

And so there are these things where I was just trying to explain for me as a five wing cognition is very important to me. I try to explain my thought process so people can pick that up and be like, okay, you have a reason for liking the things that you like. Okay. Just because I don't understand that doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's just now I understand the thought process. That makes more sense. All I ever wanted to explain was the logic behind something. But because people considered it, instead of me explaining who I am, they consider it defensive. It's like now I'm being perceived as defensive instead of trying to stand firm in who I am and explain where I'm coming from.

And that would be such an incredible wounding that it would make me withdraw so often. And it's like this constant in and out process of again, the Tiredness of trying to take up space when you were afraid that someone's going to misinterpret what you say or do. And so, um, I reached this limit of I'm sure many people here have reached a limit.

I'm so sick of shit. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so like, what am I doing wrong or what's happening here? And so you're like, okay, what's the big thing? Being defensive, people feeling a certain type of way about your worldview and your sensory systems, and just needing to withdraw, but they're interpreting as you being egotistical, better than them, using certain language to represent yourself, and now, again, the mismatch of perception and identity, it's like, I'm so tired of this, and so the limit is like, who is allowed to receive the descriptions of who you are. Who deserves to understand the inner workings of your mind and your heart? Not everybody does. And I finally had the big light bulb go off, like, this is not working. They don't deserve this. They're never going to get it. And that's where Enneagram work, personality work comes in too.

Are they actually going to get it? Yes or no. And so the separation becomes very clear of like, oh, I don't have to explain. They're not going to get it. Like I'm free. I'm so free. And so I can go somewhere else where I can refill my cup. Like they get it. These spaces where I feel free to have joy and just be seen as who I am, like all these people, I'm sure we're going to come to the same conclusion just as we are, right?

And so there's again more space to not react of, they don't need to understand. Why am I chasing them? Why do I keep on chasing the wrong people trying to explain who I am when they don't get it, you know? And so that's part of it. And I know a lot of neurodivergent people, we will get stuck in that trap because our, we don't even understand our brains.

Most of us don't. We follow the TikToks, we follow the memes, but a lot of us don't really get the mechanisms happening. So there's like the body part component too, which I'm just going to recommend. Please go seek out occupational therapists. They will help too. Just, okay. I think I'm done. I'm done.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That was so helpful and so important, um, to teach others advocate to defend themselves and for us to pick up that torch, say, Hey, we want to defend you.

Me and my wife are constantly defending our son against neighbors. And people who don't understand him mis, misinterpret his actions. And cause you shouldn't have to do that for yourself. We talk a lot about this when it, when it comes to, people of color in, in majority white spaces. It's like they get super tired of having to constantly defend themselves.

Advocate for the issues when we can step up and we can defend and we can advocate and we can be an ally. I think the same thing is true with like autism, as well, especially, I've noticed like in movies, TV shows, there's certain traits that show up when there's like an a character who has autism.

And if they, if you don't have those kinds of common traits and people might not pick up on it. And those misinterpret all your actions, you know, like Zeke is an eight is very loud. He's full of life and he's just all over the place. So, you know, when he comes in the room as an eight, but in people, but then he still has those social interaction.

They think cues that he misses all the time. And so he, he doesn't pick, he thinks that people are constantly betraying him that are, they're constantly looking at him funny. And then that just agitates him. And then it causes, you know, an unhealthy social interaction. And then other people would draw from him.

He's constantly losing friends. So we're constantly trying to help people understand him, advocate for him, defend him. And so we just need to all do a better job of doing that for our friends and family members. So, thanks Boonie. I really, really loved hearing from you. It was moving on. I think Amanda, we need to go to you as a three, go, go back to three here.

I, missed you there on the, on the list. So can we, can you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Sure. Um, trying to think of like the way to sum up my experience. Cause I feel like Most of my teenage and adulthood life has been struggling with mental health issues. My childhood, I was pretty easy go, performer, entertainer, loved everybody.

And it wasn't until my adult years when like a bomb went off. Um, and I definitely think in hindsight that my issues with depression, Suicide ideation, anxiety, um, eating disorder, food addiction, body dysmorphia, um, and later diagnosed ADHD had a lot to do with being a one on one, uh, three. So image being.

Beautiful having the body type or the dress or any of those things that society valued was so what I was obsessed with that, um, and not being able to ever measure up. Uh, it just imploded on me. Um, I couldn't get skinny enough. I couldn't be pretty enough. I couldn't, uh, wear the right clothes. I couldn't have that, like walk into a room and everybody look at me kind of like fantasy that I wanted to get some kind of value, um, Imploded at that time, and it just kind of kept going into my 20s and 30s.

It wasn't until my later 30s and into my early 40s that I finally started getting some insights and ahas and making connections. And just like Jordin was mentioning, I was going to figure it out myself. It was like. I, we taught my talking to my dad, who's also a three. And I was like, I think it was in my twenties where I was like, okay, I'm really tired of this and I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to fix myself.

And I'm going to have that moment, just like Jordin talked about that moment of being like, here I am. I'm healed. I'm confident. I have value come admire me. And of course that never happened and it won't happen the way I imagine it. Anyways. So that comparing to other people, the competing, I had no interest in being valedictorian or being president of a club or the best athlete, but I definitely wanted to be a attractive, magnetic, charismatic girl. Um, and I moved around a lot. And so it was the, the standard, the expectation was always changing. So it depended on where I lived, what community we were a part of. Um, and then when you're in a religious community and a secular community, then there's like, okay, how am I supposed to present myself?

In this one and then in this one and then when you get into the work world as an adult, you have religious community and personal community and work community. And it just, I didn't realize that that was, I was doing was this constant, like, trying to measure up to all these different environments I was in.

I think my success in getting through a lot of that was my ADHD masking. I think it helped me keep pushing through instead of just imploding on myself. The shame was obviously present. I didn't like it. And it was like, I'm going to figure this out. Where's this coming from? So constant exploration.

And interestingly enough, when I got into teaching and I was teaching life skills and then school counseling, and so I was counseling other high school students, kind of similar issues, you know, I was seeing things in other people, um, and it was like that. I'm going to, I'm going to. Help fix you. And maybe I can fix myself in that process.

But the ADHD thing was a total, like did not see that coming. I was just recently diagnosed at 42. That was definitely a huge gut punch. It was a, I don't know who I am. I really don't know who I am. And so it's a lot of grieving, a lot of grieving, a lot of anger. Interestingly enough, I found that most of the grief came from feeling like I missed out on years where I could have accomplished something.

Like had I known I had ADHD and I couldn't have medication and therapy and help in my twenties, my teens and twenties, I could have done so much more with my life. Like that was what I was struggling with and also the frustration of wanting to accomplish more, but the anxiety or the ADHD or, the depression like held me back from a lot of the things that I wanted to do.

Like I wanted to go do this. I wanted to, you know, be in this position or be in the spotlight for this, but it kind of was always that voice that was like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but, um, so there's a lot of frustration there. That push to want to perform and get value that way, but also retreating because the shame and the image and what if I can't.

And so it was this, this crazy cycle that I went through and I'm still going through working on finding value and just being me. Like, I don't have to be pretty, I don't have to be put together, I don't have to have the latest fashion, I don't have to be the best daughter, the best wife, the best friend, if I just existed.

I have worth and value and that still is really hard for me to wrap my head around. So that's where I kind of try to show up and be the best performer at is just being the favorite friend, the favorite, you know, I always tell my husband, I want to be the trophy wife for you. That would be the best thing.

I struggled with emotional eating and binge eating. And so I got quite heavy and that was very hard for me as an image conscious person, because I didn't even feel like I had worth being out in public, like as an ugly obese person, you should not have to look at me. I'm just taking up space. And so that was another like mental thing to work through.

And so I eventually was getting healthy, working out. Of course I took that too far as a three. You know, I was feeling good and accomplishing and I would get my kicks out of telling people that I got up at two 30 every morning and worked out for an hour and a half for five years until my body was like, you're done.

So yeah, so it was just in hindsight, I can just see it. Plainly out there that it was mostly that intimate one on one kind of needing to have that value in my world, whether it was my peers or my parents or friends or all those kinds of things that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Amanda. I love that you echoed Jordin's comments about I'm going to fix myself because as a three, we just need to keep hearing that, like we, we need should fix ourselves because it is rather embarrassing, to say that we are not six, not having success. We're seeing a successful, and I appreciated you, talking about your subtype that you're a sexual or one to one, three.

That's big. And that really does provide some really, uh, insight into mental health or mental health struggles, because I know the sexual three, more so than the achievements, like you said, the social threes are really into the, the success, symbols, status statuses. But for sexual three, you're really gonna want to craft desirable qualities or craft a desirable image to make others.

Once you more to desire you more. And so I can totally see how that would lend itself to really thinking a lot about body image, exercising, like doing all that you can to sort of craft the perfect image for your loved ones or the people that you really want to attract, did you feel like, and I know Beatrice chestnut teaches that a lot of times sexual threes for women, they want it to be the most like feminine, they want to fit into that feminine box that called the culture, the majority culture wants.

And then for men to fit into that masculine, boxes, did you feel a little bit of that?

Chasing an Ideal: Navigating Body Image and Identity in the Shadow of a Gentle Mother

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I had an interesting relationship with that. Um, my mother, I'm an only child. We moved a lot, weren't around family. So it was, my dad was a workaholic self pros three. So it was me and my mom. And so her energy, she's a nine.

And her body type, she's very tall and thin was my goal post for a lot of my life. And I am, I got curvy real quick. So yay, middle school years and blossoming. And so I thought I had to have that body type. I was also in the nineties heroin shake, you know? So Kate Moss and looking like you were on your deathbed was the ideal and definitely could not do that.

And then personality wise, my mom's just. friendly and laid back and kind. And I always had friends that are like, your mom is so sweet. We just love your mom. And here I am like opinionated loud, like go, go, go. I'm a fire, you know, like a lot of young kind of masculine energy. I'm also a thinker and a lot of the Myers Briggs.

So there was this. I have to be kind and meek and gentle and sweet and serve, um, and be soft spoken and not have opinions. And I also grew up in the Bible belt. So, you know, you have a lot of cultural expectations. And so there was this, like, I have to soften myself. I have to keep my mouth shut. I have to be more like her.

Everybody likes her. Nobody wants an opinionated, strong female, you know, especially during my growing up years. So I did, I did struggle with that. I had a love hate relationship because I am a girly girl. I love me some makeup and some clothes and all the things, but I also felt that like, edginess to me.

And so I did, I had a hard time kind of resonating with that. And I, I think I still do, especially my husband's a five. And so he's a little more still and quiet and reflective and, you know, I'm completely opposite of that. And so you've got those role reversals in a relationship. Cause I do the finances and, you know, and he doesn't.

And so, It is still kind of present. Getting more comfortable with it obviously is the more I learn about myself, the more I go through therapy, EMDR, brain-spotting, all that stuff has been amazing for me to work through that stuff and then having that space with a therapist where I can just let it all hang out and like, I don't have to worry about other people watching me or hearing me.

Of course, you have to get to that point as a three with a therapist to be vulnerable in front of your therapist, learn to trust your therapist, but having that space for me to just kind of be brutally honest and let it all hang out has been really helpful too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): One more question, Amanda, you talked about ADHD masking.

That's something that came up in one of my interviews on ADHD here at this, on the summit. And so I was like, when I heard about it, I was like, that sounds a lot like threes. This whole ADHD masking thing. So, and you said you used it to cope. It was helpful for you. So as a three who, you know, we tend to wear masks, what is ADHD masking and how is it, how did it help you?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Um, well, one, I think that's why I wasn't diagnosed until much later, because I learned how to adapt my behavior to the expectations. Um, so Matt, ADHD masking is. Um, much like the mirroring that threes do, you know, we're watching people watch us and learning what is acceptable, what is an acceptable. And so ADH doers dears do that as well.

Um, we see that, oh, this behavior is not. You know, we're getting some negative feedback from this. And so you learn to internalize, come up with, um, accommodations, ways to not get that negative feedback. For example, obviously the societal expectation is to show up on time for things, right? And a lot of ADHD people have time management, time, blindness issues and contend to be late for things so you, you overcompensate sometimes. So for example, I have no concept of how long it's going to take me to get somewhere. And that's where a lot of my anxiety stemmed from was, was coming from those things. So I will leave way earlier than I have to, to make sure that I get somewhere on time. So I will get to places. 45, 30 minutes early before I have to. And I'm okay with that because it lessens the anxiety of potentially being late. And so I'll sit in my car and like do whatever I need to do. ADHD, people also have to work on transitioning from one thing to the next. So it is helpful to sit in the car and kind of mentally prepare.

Okay, I'm going from this. I'm going into there. This is what I need to do. So it does help me, but, uh, you learn what is an acceptable. And so that's why I say being a three. And having ADHD that mirror and masking, I think was my, my life force and surviving, uh, thinking about the things that I struggled with.

I don't, I'm surprised that I wasn't hospitalized or really got into serious addictions, different things like that. But I think that was part of it is I just got in that. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it on top of being concerned about the image. What would people think if they knew?

And so that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, the whole goal of the summit is to help us to have more self compassion for ourselves and more empathy for others. And, you know, you have the normal. Three or normal type stuff that we struggle with everyone does, and then you, the ADHD or other mental health struggles sort of layers on top of that.

So I, as you, when you say that you struggle with knowing how long it's going to take to get somewhere, I'm like, Oh my goodness, as a three, we like efficiency, really getting places. On time and quickly. I can't imagine then having that struggle on top of that, of not knowing, like, like having that value of efficiency and being good efficiency, but then not being able to control that.

That sounds really challenging, really hard. So that's a good, I mean, thank you for sharing that example. That's, that's helpful for the reason the rest of us listening in, but thank you again for, for sharing that you're 42. I'm 42 and I'm going through a crisis as well. My identity as a three, like, what did I do the last two decades for other people?

And what did I do for myself? I don't know. It's our midlife crisis. And I really appreciate you saying, Hey, I wish I would have got sought a diagnosis earlier. Cause I could have been so much more helpful. And that's one of the things that keeps coming up too, is let's, let's seek out those things.

Not be afraid to get help early on because it could change the next decade or two of our lives. Uh, so thank you for sharing that wisdom.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I say advocate, advocate for yourself, advocate for other people. And now that's kind of my big passion is educating how ADHD shows up for women, especially because we're the population where it's not diagnosed or it's misdiagnosed.

So now that's like I'm on fire for that because. I still, I have a couple of friends that are like I think I might have that. I'm like, well, what have you done about it? Well, you know, my doctor says that I don't have it. I'm like, no, no, no. If, if you feel like that's something you need to explore, like go find another doctor and then go find another doctor.

We have to advocate. So I think that's that three, like encouraging and cheerleading and fighting for people I find coming in now and trying to empower other people for whatever diagnosis they might think that they have or mental health issue that they might think they have. It's like, don't just sit in it, you know, go find help some form or fashion, educate yourself if that's just researching, you know,

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good, Amanda.

Well, I interviewed Kristen Carter, who is the host of I have ADHD podcast. So go, go check out that if you're listening and you want more. And I also interviewed Nate McCord on how ADHD shows up in every type. So that would be another resource for you. Okay. Thanks, Amanda. We have two left, so we're going to go to Joanne next and then Eden.

So Joanne, would you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, I came into this panel. I was like, what should I talk about? And while I was listening to people sharing, I was like, Oh, I was like having like an epiphany just right now. It's like, Oh, I realized that whenever someone asked me about me, I I have like go to tracks of how I can describe myself in my life.

I can like talk about myself as, someone who's moved around a lot, had a hard time making friends. That's track number one. Track number two is growing up as a queer kid in the church. And then like having that whole thing blow up. And then a third track being like spiritual abuse, spiritual trauma, all kinds of stuff.

And so it was very interesting. Just like sitting here, it's like, very Four-ish thing to do. It's like, I can talk about myself according to these like pre rehearsed. Ways. And I think that a lot of my struggles probably came from like this. It's a, I think it's a pretty common four thing, determining the conclusion up front and then working backwards.

Like the conclusion is obviously there must be something wrong with me and that I'm fatally flawed and that nothing can never like help me. And I probably have gone through my whole life and have interpreted different experiences I've had as evidence, but there must be something wrong with me. So it's kind of like a circular argument and you know, even in the ways that I show up in life nowadays might be according to that rehearsal. And I, I just thought that was pretty, pretty weird. Oh, I haven't actually talked about this track in a while.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So that's extremely valuable just to let us in your head already. Thank you.

For allowing us to see that that's, yeah, I'm very intrigued. I want you to talk about all of that for a couple of hours.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I could, don't tempt me, but I think the main thing that I've learned recently is that I am important, but I'm not central. That I come with the experience of being a self preservation four.

So I'm a four that doesn't look like a four. Everyone else on the outside might interpret me or assume that I am basically every other type. It really depends on my mood. And the people who are the closest to me would be able to tell that I'm a four. And that's like, if I even reveal all the crap that's like going on behind the scenes.

And so there's a lot of masking, jury's still out whether or not I actually have ADHD, definitely have had anxiety and depression, PTSD, the full range. But nowadays there, there are two things that are happening for me in present day. One is it might be a possibility that I've identified with Being someone who has anxiety, depression, PTSD.

Then actually having anxiety, depression, PTSD. Like, I'm not going to discount that. There were several moments in my life where yeah, anxiety is like just running the show or that I've been kind of like stuck in the mud. But I think if that's like, that might be maybe like. 40, 50 percent of what was going on for me.

And I think the remaining 50 percent was what my four was doing. It's like, I've demonstrated that there must be some, there is something wrong with me and I'm just going to like squeeze every single juice that I can't add with this identity. What helped me was when I discovered the Enneagram, I thought I was a social four for the longest time because I like resonated with all the four stuff and it wasn't until my Enneagram coach sat down with me for about a year and she was like, I think you should revisit because what I actually ended up doing was to disconnect with my own suffering and outsource it.

So I thought that I was struggling a lot, but from outside observation, no one can tell that I was struggling. I grew up with major RBF, so everyone could kind of tell that there was something going on, but I would never show it. All the meanwhile, behind the scenes, I know how I'm feeling. So it was like super broody and dark and stormy and all that kind of stuff.

But what actually ended up happening was that I was very functional. So my parents had no idea that I was struggling in my childhood because I happened to be very good at school, but it wasn't that I was actually good at school. I mean, I might have had some skillsets, but nobody knew just how much, how many more hours I put towards finishing a project.

Like I would work till like three, 4 AM. And so I think in a lot of ways, like I resonate with some of the things that Amanda shared, like, I think that was a lot of the masking that I grew up operating, like the good easy child suffering silently alone was like probably the way that I survived throughout life.

To the point where now I, inadulted, I painted myself into that corner. And later on, like six, seven years ago, I met my bestie. Who is also an Enneagram therapist. She's a sexual too. And she was so gentle in the beginning, but now she kind of let me in on her initial impression of me that when we met and she said, yeah, you were just like, like a broken record.

You kept telling the same stories over and over and over and over again. And I think I had learned more about the four to realize that, Like that was probably how I was coping. But the, the issue was. I was already in a safer place. I didn't need to cope anymore. I had already left the, the church that blew up that I was working.

And I, I was the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, whatever back then. And that was just like the identity that I had taken on since I left was, I was a person who founded a huge church family secret and I got cut off from my community and no one understands what the hell is going on. And I have all this power to single handedly destroy this church, but what do I do with all this power?

That was the narrative. I kept telling myself for like the first five years since I left that church, maybe seven years. And I think the more I learned about specifically the self press for type set up, it's like, okay, if I've identified with. Suffering itself, then there will be no healing. The healing will not happen because I've already eliminated as an option available to me.

And so I learned that I have an allergic reaction to joy. I remember to what Boonie shared and that joy for fours is a very threatening experience. It doesn't make any sense, I think, to other types, but I think for fours, it's living life as if the umbilical cord that tethers us to life in the universe has been severed and all of our lives is us trying to reconnect that tether by making ourselves to be very different or unique, or trying to prove ourselves and to earn our worth, or by being the most suffering person on the face of the planet, whatever it is.

And so if all of those things are a part of the type four setup and we have our type of what, but we are not our type. Namely we are more than our type. Then I have to go back to the drawing board and rethink everything. All of my premises, I need to reevaluate because otherwise I'm just recycling the same limited conclusion over and over again.

So nowadays it's more of, okay, maybe I am important, but I'm not central. I'm not the center of the universe. So maybe the world will not fall apart. If I take a break, maybe. I can actually take up more space without other people feeling burdened. Maybe it's okay for me to enjoy things. And even if I open myself up to risk of losing that good thing or whatever, maybe I'm already more than capable of handling that now.

Then I did before. So a lot of it nowadays is more of like, let me just be a single drop of water in the greater life ocean and see where things go instead of me trying to make myself or life be a certain way. So there's a lot of self preservation instinct stuff that I've been trying to work on.

A lot of my anxiety was probably from that instinct going on hyperdrive. It's like planning and predicting and practicing and all those things. And to be upset basically for the rest of the day or the rest of the week, because one thing fell out of alignment instead of just being like, it is what it is, you know, maybe things are beyond what I can perceive and imagine.

And maybe that's fine in the same way that I don't know exactly how hot it's going to be tomorrow. And maybe I don't need to know, maybe I just need to know in real time in the present and I'll entrust my wellbeing to life to take care of me as I need and also to myself to make good decisions as each situation comes up.

So I don't have to. You know, relish in the past, thinking those were the good old days. I don't have to future trip. I could just be here wherever I am. And I don't know whether or not I have ADHD. The question that my husband asked me was, what would you do next, even if you found out? I'm like, I don't know, because life is pretty good right now. I'm self employed on my own boss. Like I get to decide my life to be however I want it to be. Eventually I might find out I might not, but there's some part of me that wants to kind of keep the type four at bay that if I were to find out, let's say if I do or don't have ADHD, that I would go back from birth and be like, this is why I have been, this is how I've become who I am now.

That's a story that I think is too small. For where I am now. And so I'm kind of just rolling on by day to day. And, I think trauma, for me is kind of a more open ended thing. Like oftentimes people think of trauma as like a big, scary event, like a car crash or like rape or whatever. And those things obviously are traumatic.

But if it's the case that in each of our types that we can create our own traumatic microcosm. Then how about we give ourselves the very opposite of going beyond our comfort zone and for four, it will be learning how to recognize that maybe some goodness is readily available to me right here and right now.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Joanne. Thanks for sharing all that you did. I was. Kinda taking some notes down and I know, thank you for pointing out that you're self preservation. Four. I know self pres four can be sunny on the outside, suffering on the inside. And so tell me, is it a little bit like threes, you know how we talked about as threes, we don't like to go and get help?

Is it true? I know that self preservation four sometimes can suffer, suffer, suffer almost in like a masochistic way. Like they can endure lots of suffering. Yep. And does, do you think other self press fours will. We'll hold on to that. And, and cause I know that I've heard that they can almost feel more special because there's, there's something in such a unique way, but that keeps up press for us from getting help by kind of holding onto that or for you, like, what were you tempted to kind of just continue to suffer in a masochistic way or, you know, what propelled you to then move towards getting help and support?

Breaking the Cycle: Overcoming Counterdependency and the Pressure to Overfunction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So there's dependency, there's counter, there's codependency, there's counter dependency. Counter dependency is like having an allergic reaction to relying on other people. It's just that in the United States, especially, we have a whole holiday to celebrate independence. And so, like, a lot of that, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so hard for me to break outside of that and still is like, I don't know what's masochistic if I'm just used to that.

That's my baseline. You know, like it wasn't until other people were like, you did what? Like you did how much work and getting that outside frame of reference that I reprocess like, Oh, what I reflexively do is more than what is actually required. What happens if I don't do what if I don't put in that much effort and then the anxiety that comes up usually is a sign for me now that it's my self press for over functioning.

A lot of it, I think that kind of, goes hand in hand with masking. I think self press 4 is like, no one can tell how we're dealing. And sometimes we ourselves can't tell. Because we are our own frame of reference. That's the self referencing bit of type 4. And so, asking for help felt terrible. I missed a step on the stairs several years back and I technically broke my foot.

And I was with my friend, I happened to catch her shoulder. So she kind of broke most of my fall, but I still ended up injured. And I was laying on the floor. And the first thing that came to mind was I asked her, is this the day where I'm supposed to cancel my clients? She's just like, was completely in shock.

She's like, what are you talking about? Of course this is. And I had to like get into a boot and everything. And it just sucked. being injured. But the hardest part of that experience was knowing that I had to ask for people to give me rights. Like the physical pain was easy.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, thank you for sharing more of that.

That's really insightful for us to hear about what's going on within a four, especially self press for, and thanks for sharing about your church experiences. Even though they, they weren't, you were sharing some things that weren't positive. And I just, I know that there's people who have used, uused to be in spiritual communities that aren't, and then there's people that a lot of people are watching that are in spiritual communities are going to Christian churches.

And I just want to point out that, you know, even if you have rose colored glasses and think that your spiritual leader or your spiritual community is like, so great, uh, that not all churches get mental health and that's why we're dedicating a whole session to that. When I was starting out as a spiritual leader, I was a horrible, I keep saying this, I was not a good, I did not get mental health.

And as a three, that was still needed to grow up, I kept, I had a lot of work to do in understanding mental health. And so I think it just helps for anybody to go to a counselor, to seek support and get a third party, sort of audit of your spiritual experience and tell your spiritual experience to somebody else.

And for them to be like, you know, that doesn't sound really healthy. Well, let me, let me walk you through this. Cause then, cause sometimes we get googly eyes and we, we just think our, our churches, you know, has the right teaching or has the best leaders or even, even in those situations, there might be some things that are not good.

Going well, and you need to help walking through those things. I grew up Catholic and I was telling my wife about something in terms of like, a relationship to like the, the town, the priest of our town, and she was like, that's not like, what, that, that is not healthy. And, and so like nothing bad happened, but it was just, you know, It was just an experience of like, if we need to be sharing our experiences with our spiritual leaders and community and have somebody else do a little audit of that, because there might be places that, where we need to heal.

And sometimes we can't see that. And obviously our spiritual community is biased, so they might not be able to help us see that. But an outsider might be able to help see that. And you guys are all, a lot of you guys are coaches, counselors, therapists. So you know what I'm talking about, but I'm just stating the obvious for, for those who are watching.

But also I'm going to be interviewing, Audrey Assad on here. And she's going to be talking about, telling her story of spiritual OCD. So that might be an interview that you guys might want to pay attention to or watch. So, but thank you, Joanne for, for sharing your story.

I'm going tof ollow up with you. I need to hear a little bit more of your story. So I'll follow up with you after the panel. Okay. We have Eden. Eden's back from the thunderstorm that her internet got cut off, but she is back. So Eden, can you unmute yourself and share your story?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. Apologies for having to being forced off, should I say?

Right. Yeah, and, and I missed the other two. I'm so sorry, Stephanie, I missed your, your story. But yeah, I'm Eden, and I am an enneagram type two. And I'll be talking a little bit about my history with anxiety and depression through kind of my life. Now as a practicing therapist and attachment coach, I always start with the beginning, right?

Like those early attachment, those early childhood years. When I entered the world, my mom and dad and sister, older sister, had just moved to a new city. And, um, my dad was traveling Monday through Friday. There was no family or support there. My sister has down syndrome. She was maybe a year out of having open heart surgery and here I came, right?

So needless to say, I had entered into a family system that really had some pretty intense Needs and very little room for a new set of needs, right? And that obviously reinforces reinforced in me that primary type to trait of attending to other people's needs and neglecting my own So that was just it's kind of like the perfect melting pot for that Trait to really form and flourish and in me. So as a sibling, I think it's It's worth like stopping there a little bit as a sibling of someone with special needs.

Not only did it feel like there was no room for my needs out of just the circumstances, right? No one's fault, but there was also so much shame feeling a need, right? Because I have so much more than she does. How, how could I even think about? Picking up space here. So that I think added another layer to. Not being in touch with my needs.

I had to kind of work my way through the shame around that. So overall, I kind of grew to be pretty good. I became the like token friend that was the counselor, right? I can really read and anticipate people's needs and it felt a little like maybe three ish at times like I can I'm gonna kind of morph a little bit here based on what I'm seeing and I felt like a superpower really.

The shadow sid of that superpower, there was kind of an undercurrent of conditional self worth manipulation of others. So I could feel valued. That's really kind of just come around into my consciousness. Wow. Like I'm doing these things because I think that this person is going to bring me value and I'm going to create a need for myself in their life so that I can feel validated and affirmed.

That's been a fun one to kind of discover more and more. And really ask myself, okay, what do I want in this relationship with this person? Like, do I want to be friends? Do I want to be acquaintances versus I need them to need me? That's, that's kind of been really helpful. But yeah, shadow side, and then also having a really loaded self critic that can come in, when those personal needs or opinions.

Or that like stress eight, you know, kicks in, a lot of shame around that. And my, my depression, I was thinking about my childhood and I was like, I think I was good. I think I was good. And then like my twenties hit and I had left my family system. And was kind of dropped into the world, right? And it was terrifying.

Because I was then responsible for the choices that I was making. And I didn't know what choices to make because I didn't know myself. I didn't know what I wanted, didn't know who I was, what I needed. I felt like that moment from, the notebook, except without Ryan Gosling, where he's like, stop thinking about what other people want.

What do you want? Right. What do you want? Um, which is a terrifying question. So like a 20 something, but also really could and did inspire some creativity and imagination and curiosity about myself. My part of my anecdote to my own depression, obviously therapy, my own therapy, some medication, um, but really was songwriting and performing, that process.

It was something I'd been doing since a kid, but I had kept those songs totally to myself. I'd never shared, never performed nothing. So when I started writing in my depression, I just was like, well, maybe I go to a coffee shop and play an open mic or, and it, and it just started flowing. Right. and that, there's so much, there was so much power to the experience of I am standing behind an amplified microphone, right.

And there are people looking at me, hearing my words and hearing my voice and they want to listen. And so that really started building up that connection to myself, my voice, my thoughts, my feelings, um, as well as that self worth. And then, you know, I think another phase was becoming a new mom.

I think anxiety, like, just came in and snuggled up next to me in that phase of life. And part of it was just like my idea of myself being shook, right? I had this concept of myself as this eternally patient. And the token caretaker for like the whole world, right? And I was known as a very patient person and then to experience myself as like so depleted, as very limited.

Um, as resenting my kids and my partner at times, and like what felt worse than any of that, like these moments where I would lash out at my kids, right? It was just completely unacceptable, not in my framework, and there was a lot of wrestling with, you know, okay, who, who am I in this new role with these new demands?

What do I need? How do I communicate that to my partner? And how do I communicate that with my kids? So there's been a lot of, a lot of self care that I've stepped into, which, you know, that, that is like a buzzword and I don't love to use it, but it really has been moments of stillness. Oftentimes when I'm alone for whatever reason, for me being able to get to my core self requires me feeling very embodied, um, and not in my head, not paying attention to the people around me.

I do hot yoga and the room is dark. I love it. No one gets to see, no one sees your sweat, right? Like. Yeah. You feel it, but you don't see it. So hot yoga shavasana is that moment of reflection at the end of yoga class where you're laying there and just really noticing what's coming up in my consciousness, that is a way that I hear myself speak, imagery or in words or in thoughts or songs and really paying attention to that.

So finding a rhythm and working that out with my partner and my life, right? My lifestyle, working that out, finding that rhythm where I stay connected to myself in the midst of all the things that I'm doing in the midst of all the needs. We have a dog, we have chickens, we have a turtle, we have kids, right?

Like, I love being in that role. And I think that's one thing that's we're saying, like, I imagine there's parts of ourselves that we love. Right? Like, in the types that we are, I love being that nurturer and that caretaker, and I love being able to offer a patient, obviously a therapist, right? I love being able to offer that space for people, um, but it's also, it has to be in balance, otherwise I stop being as good as I can be for, for myself and for others.

So that's, that's my 2 cents here.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): if you go to a type two therapist like Amanda, or it's like Eden, you may get a reference to Ryan Gosling, to help, you know, your mental health. So just to let you know,

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. To be, to be fair, I have not, I haven't seen that movie probably since it came out.

But it was very profound when I heard those words coming out of his mouth. And you pointed out that relational anxiety might manifest as a two by creating needs that you can meet for people. A lot of the mental health anxieties come for twos is relational anxiety. And so I like how you put that.

Pointed that out. And didn't you say that you felt like you couldn't talk about your needs because you had siblings or sibling that had more needs, right? I think that was really helpful to hear because you might, especially as a two, you might minimize your own needs, especially if you can see other people who are struggling and be like, well, who am I to bring this up?

I'm just going to be more of a burden. And that's kind of a thing that a lot of you guys shared in the panel is kind of the tendency to minimize your, your struggle as it's not being a big deal. Uh, when it actually is, and you're deserving of support and help and, uh, for people loving people to come around you.

And then I liked that you pointed out that songwriting has been a really helpful, like therapy tool. I hear that over and over for twos, like I had no two who does photography and those creative outlets. When you're just going out and doing something for yourself, that's fun and enjoyable is self care.

And, I always tell twos, especially, um, in, in churches where you're, it's continually preached to be self, be selfless, be selfless, be selfless. Well, twos aren't already selfless. They need to be more selfish in the best sense of the word, uh, something that feels selfish is actually self care.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. And I didn't, I didn't mention that as well, but I could have gone on a whole church, path, right.

But I think that was one of my major early on. I grew up in the church. That was one of my major struggles with the church because that was not a message that I needed reinforced, for myself, I needed to be valued for myself and I needed my strengths and my gifts and my talents to be mine.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yes, that's what the Engram was so helpful to me because then I can, I'm telling nines now, take up more space, take up more space, but that's not usually a message that's, that's preached. Well, thank you, Eden. I'm going to start with you and then work back to the others on the, on the panel in closing, tell us where we can find you online, any point us to any resources that you want us To know about any work that you're doing. I'll ask that question of everybody. And then if there's a burning thought that you had, that you didn't get to share, now's your time to get it in. So go ahead and work. We find you online, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have a group private practice. I come on with my husband. He's also a therapist and an Enneagram Nine. It's called Inside Out Collaborative and that's insideoutcollaborative. com. And then,for coaching stuff that's edenheider. com. I have a podcast that focuses on attachments.

There's just a season out there. It's just a little, little flip, but that's called inside out podcast as well. And my Instagram is @edenheider. I'm not on as much. That's part of self care that's happened over the past couple of years as I'm not as much on social media. I'm more in my body, which is positive.

But yes, I love hearing from people. Um, And yeah, there are lots of good resources on those pages too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. Um, and I'll post the links that you shared with me. I'll post them below so that people can, can find you that way. Perfect. Uh, let's go back to Stephanie.

Stephanie, where can we find you?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Hey, um, so I'm on Instagram. Uh, like Eden said, I'm not on there a ton. Um, but it is storycraftstuff. editor. And I have a website where you can find me for editing services. And sometimes I do blog about grief on there too. Um, but that is storycraftncom.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome stuff. Uh, Jordan.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): I am on almost all the socials. Um, it's at just Jordinjames. Um, so you can find me on there as a three. I have a lot to express and I am on social media a lot. Maybe, uh, I'm taking some self care notes. Um, so yeah, you can find me on social media. I, um, a lot of my narcissistic abuse stuff. If that's something that anybody listening is interested in.

is on my, in my writing and I write a lot on medium. com. So I think that there's a, there's going to be a link for that as well. And then my, my favorite thing that I just created earlier this year is a 30 day email program called worthy. And it is all about, reclaiming your self worth, your unconditional self worth from the inside, but it's tailored around letting love do the work for you.

So like, I'm really tired of a lot of healing stuff out there that has you working really, really hard to heal because it does not, does not actually have to be as hard as we're making it. Um, so that's called worthy. Uh, it's just a 30 day email. Um, of course it's only 33 bucks. Uh, so highly, highly recommend that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I found you on medium. com too. I found one of your articles and I was like, well, she is very vulnerable for a three. I, I like it. Yeah. I need to get her on the panel.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yeah, actually that, that I had a burning thought as I was listening to y'all fours. I was like, Oh man, this is so good because I've got, I've got a four on me for sure.

And I've realized that like, My four parts are so gifted and special and deep, and they are weird. They are really weird, and my three parts blame my four parts for why we're so lonely. Like, if you were less weird, if you were less deep, if you could just be more shallow and fit in, like, then we wouldn't be so lonely.

So as I was listening to the, the fours, I was like, oh man, that's like the war that's been going on inside of me all this time. So thank you fours for being so vulnerable with that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Love that, Jordin. I totally agree with that. Uh, Boonie, where can we find you?

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, my website is organizedmesses. com. I also have YouTube with a similar name, Organized Messes.

You can just find me there. I, So I have a disappearing relationship with my Twitch, but I want to promote content on there because of my love and support for being part of the gaming community. So I am streaming on Mondays and Thursdays. I actually just lecture because I like to info dump at people.

And it's like my history of not being able to just rant about a topic for 30 minutes on end, which is why I initially created my YouTube, but now I'm going to do it with a live. live action with people who can comment and ask questions. And so I've noticed, not coincidentally, I'm sure you all know, there's a lot of ADHDers and autistic people in the gaming community.

And so I found my people. Um, my perception of rejection is, uh, slowly disappearing and I feel like I do belong there. And so if anyone wants to come say hi, you can just lurk. You don't even need to say anything. Um, I'll be there. So, and I also have a couple lectures that I, I have. Recorded for letsplaytherapy.

org. It's through the lens of play therapy by talk about neurodivergence archetypes and video games for therapists seeking to understand the world in a different lens. So thank you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. I love that Boonie. And I found you on your YouTube channel. Thank you for taking up space and sharing your story. And, uh, I, I love that.

Keep doing that. Okay, Amanda.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I have on Facebook and Instagram, uh, two different accounts. nagyonfire is my personal, but I, I do health coaching, ADHD, all that stuff there. And then Nagy on Fire Coaching is more specific to self awareness, typology, that kind of thing. Um, and I wanted to add that the social media actually helped a lot of my Healing because I wasn't active on social media.

I was a lurker. I didn't want to expose myself in any kind of vulnerable way. So I just watched what other people were doing. And when I started, um, health coaching and talking about weight loss and posting those, uh, not so. Pleasant photos. Um, but I didn't want anybody to see was kind of therapeutic because it released a lot of that shame, right?

Like talking about the things we're ashamed of releases the power it has over us. So I actually found it therapeutic to be vulnerable and share a lot of these things, um, in social media and speaking a little bit more about the ADHD and whatnot. So, um, Yeah, for me, it was helpful to expose myself that way and realize, Oh, it's not that big of a deal.

Like the world didn't end and you know, a lot of people are like, I've I'm there too. And so there's that, that space of feeling like, Oh, I'm not alone. And all these things that I'm going through. So

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good. Thank you so much, Amanda, for sharing that. Last thought and we have Joanne.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I have two hats on one is as an enneagram therapist and, I have a free guide that's called the emotional habits of enneagram types.

It's a free PDF. I basically explore what I call the big five feelings. Mad, sad, glad, scared, dumb. And how each type has different relationships with each of those motions. And then with the feelings translator hat on I built an online school for feelings because a lot of the work that I do with clients, people like.

Why didn't they teach us this in school? So I made a school. And so with that, I have a free guide called, The Big Feelers First Aid Kit, basically what to do when messy out of control feelings show up at what seems to be the wrong place, the wrong time in the wrong ways. So that's a free guide.

But I also have the online school where I basically share In let's say 20 or so hours of things that I actually share with my clients in session. But I've had a long wait list for quite some time and also people reaching out from out of state. And I'm like, I can't work with you in therapy. So here's this and said, but that one you can find at intelligentemotions.com.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. I think that's everyone, right? Okay. Well, thank you to all of you for having the courage to share. I know that so many people right now feel seen and are feeling like, Hey, I'm not the only one and feel empowered to go get support or seek out support. So thank you so much for your courage and vulnerability.

And for those of you watching today, before you head over to the next interview or the next panel here on the summit, remember to do things, seek support and share compassion because you are not alone.

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Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

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What are your emotional habits?

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How Enneagram Type-Specific Retreats Help You Dive Deep into Your Personality

Transformation from the Inside Out

As an Enneagram therapist, I want to walk the talk. I’m committed to working on my own Enneagram type’s ego structures so that even the way I help people aren’t cluttered by my own Type Four biases and reactivity.

(If you don't know what the Enneagram is, start here!)

I’ve been trained by my Enneagram teachers - Beatrice Chestnut & Uranio Paes — founders of Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy — and have gone through their Personal Mastery & Professional Certification Tracks.

Here are some other blogs about inner work retreats:

• How CP Enneagram Retreats Supercharge Your Growth

• Reflections from the CP Enneagram Inner Work Retreat as an Enneagram Type 4

Most of the prior retreats were for people of all nine Enneagram types.

This blog is about 5 reasons why Type-specific Retreats would help you take your inner work on a laser-focused level.

Reason #1: Less = More

The human brain can only take in so much information, let alone information about NINE DIFFERENT TYPES (or 27 subtypes!!).

Yes, I would still highly recommend the other 5-day retreats that cover the nine types, but there’s something about SIMPLICITY in doing the deeper dive on ONE TYPE (YOUR type!) that really hits home.

• What are the central themes of your Enneagram type?

• What are your type’s core childhood woundings?

• What are the main psychological defense mechanisms of your type?

• What is the emotional habit (aka PASSIONS) that drives your automatic patterns from behind the scenes?

• What is the mental habit (aka FIXATIONS) that immediately directs your focus, to then summon your passion and its workings?

• What does your type look like across all the Levels of Development? (e.g., what does a Type Four person fully stuck in ego look like vs. a Four who’s done a great deal of inner work?)

• What are the three SUBTYPES of your type (Self-preservation, Social, and Sexual)?

• What’s the alchemical outcome when you mix your passion with your dominant instinct?

• How can you tap into all three Centers of Intelligence (Head, Heart, Body) to grow beyond your type?

Ultimately, it would still be useful for you to be familiar with the other eight Enneagram types, but for the purposes of your own growth, having a fuller understanding of your own Enneagram type inside and out is practically more immediately useful so that you’re STAYING IN YOUR OWN LANE and not getting distracted from doing necessary work!

(I’m especially looking at you Enneagram Twos and Nines who often look to everyone else except for yourselves and also to Enneagram Fives who often hoard information without taking concrete growth steps!)

Reason #2: Get Straight to the Point of TAKING ACTION

When you do a deeper exploration of your own Enneagram type, you can skip the accumulation of heady knowledge and get right to the points that really confront you with a mirror that reveals your own patterns IN REAL TIME.

Personal growth work is already hard enough as it is, but it’s even more difficult if we tend to INTELLECTUALIZE what really needs to be ACTED upon.

I love how the Enneagram is both COMPREHENSIVE and COMPACT at the same time. The Enneagram contains a wealth of information about our types in very accessible ways that are easy to remember and regurgitate.

The hardest part is catching our patterns in the act, not learning what our patterns are. There comes a point where we’ve learned enough heady knowledge about our types that it’s now time to TAKE CONCRETE STEPS.

80% ready is READY ENOUGH. Take what you already know, and RUN WITH IT! Time is of the essence, and we need to know that sometimes we DO know enough to do DIFFERENTLY starting TODAY.

Let us not drag our feet any longer on taking the important steps towards freedom!

Find out what those steps are by signing up for your Enneagram type-specific retreat.

(If your type’s retreat isn’t available yet, contact them and add yourself to the waitlist!)

Reason #3: See Yourself Reflected in Others

I joke with my Enneagram Four clients about what might happen if you have a room FULL of Fours.

Lament all they want about how they’re the MOST different, unique, exceptional, and fatally flawed person on the planet…but they can’t ALL be right!

I used to tell this to clients as a hypothetical…until I actually attended the Type 4 Retreat myself and saw for myself how WILD and WEIRD it was to see MY patterns showing up in OTHER PEOPLE in REAL TIME. (It’s not just me!)

As with the Boggart in Harry Potter who morphs into what we fear most and disappears when we see how riddikulus! it is, so does our own ego loosen its hold when we see those same patterns in someone else like in a mirror.

Not only are we able to better OBSERVE our own patterns in action (might even be triggered by this), but we are also able to cultivate better COMPASSION for ourselves in ways we can for others (especially important for people who are so self-critical, self-judgmental, or self-loathing) as we see just how much that mirroring person is SUFFERING because of their/our type.

You def can’t get that insight by reading a book! Better to experientially SEE you for yourself in real time!

Reason #4: Focus on Your Type’s Passion 

All of the nine Enneagram types have a deadly sin (add two more to the Seven Deadly Sins and you have nine!):

• Type 1 - Anger

• Type 2 - Pride

• Type 3 - Self-deceit

• Type 4 - Envy

• Type 5 - Avarice

• Type 6 - Fear

• Type 7 - Gluttony

• Type 8 - Lust

• Type 9 - Sloth

These PASSIONS (lit., “suffering”) are each type’s ego-driven emotional state that totally takes over someone’s life. They are a reaction to us losing contact with who we truly are (our “ESSENCE”), and are ways that our EGO tries to cope with that loss.

The word personality means MASK. Each of us HAS a mask, but we AREN’T our mask.

But what happens when we FUSE with our mask to the point of forgetting who we really are? We live our lives THINKING we know ourselves, when in fact we have no freakin clue.

EVERYTHING we do in life is driven by the passion, whether we know it or not. The issue is we usually are UNAWARE of how pervasive it is.

But what happens if we were to discover:

1. Everyone wears masks

2. We each wear a specific mask

3. Our specific mask looks like XYZ

4. Here is how the mask stays on

5. Here are ways to take it off

Once we have a more concrete sense of what each of our personalities look like (like knowing where the edge of the mask is), then we have a better shot at taking the mask off to reveal our true selves.

These type-specific retreats will help you know what YOUR mask looks like so that you can have that chance to know your true face.

When someone has done a lot of inner work to peel off that ego mask and reveal their essence selves, their emotional habit is the exact OPPOSITE of what it was in their ego state:

• Type 1 - Anger > Serenity

• Type 2 - Pride > Humility

• Type 3 - Self-deceit > Veracity

• Type 4 - Envy > Equanimity

• Type 5 - Avarice > Non-attachment

• Type 6 - Fear > Courage

• Type 7 - Gluttony > Sobriety

• Type 8 - Lust > Innocence

• Type 9 - Sloth > Right Action

As an example, the more personal work I do as Enneagram Four (whose reputation is to constantly compare ourselves and always be in emotional chaos), where do I go?

Towards seeing myself as being EQUAL to + SIMILAR with others, and having emotional STEADINESS.

Pretty wild, huh??

Reason #5: Focus on Your Type’s Fixation 

In the same way each Enneagram type has an emotional habit (PASSION), each type also has a specific mental habit (FIXATION).

• Type 1 - Resentment

• Type 2 - Flattery

• Type 3 - Vanity

• Type 4 - Melancholy

• Type 5 - Stinginess

• Type 6 - Cowardice

• Type 7 - Planning

• Type 8 - Vengeance

• Type 9 - Indolence

Each type lives in a deluded/warped version of reality as we “fell from grace” and lost touch with true reality (the Holy Idea)

• Type 1 - Resentment > Perfection

• Type 2 - Flattery > Will

• Type 3 - Vanity > Harmony

• Type 4 - Melancholy > Origin

• Type 5 - Stinginess > Omniscience

• Type 6 - Cowardice > Strength

• Type 7 - Planning > Wisdom

• Type 8 - Vengeance > Truth

• Type 9 - Indolence > Love

Yes, this is very jargony, but part of that is likely because of:

1. translation issues

2. this likely being beyond our current emotional & intellectual paygrade to fathom

The main thing for you to know now is that even BEFORE the passion drives the train forward, it’s our FIXATION that sets that train on the train track.

Where we look affects where we go, and what we focus on limits our reality. (Imagine the sky that you see is but a painted ceiling. What if there’s SO MUCH MORE out there?)

No matter how much work we do to peel off that personality/ego mask, if we don’t shift our attention AWAY from the mask, it’s only a matter of time until it goes back on.

We need something else to focus our attention on so the mask STAYS OFF. That is what the Holy Ideas are about.

It’s easy to get lost in all the abstract, metaphysical language, but that’s all the more reason to really hone in on what this means for YOUR specific type.

All of this knowledge is pointless unless you know what it concretely means for YOU where you are right now.

Summary

In this blog, I listed five reasons why I HIGHLY recommend that you try a Type-specific Inner Work Retreat:

1. Less = More

2. Get Straight to the Point of TAKING ACTION

3. See Yourself Reflected in Others

4. Focus on Your Type’s Passion 

5. Focus on Your Type’s Fixation 

Ready to go deeper in your personal work?

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Healing Burnout with the Enneagram

I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Samantha Mackay on her Youtube channel. Samantha and I talked about how knowing our Enneagram type can help us recover from burnout.

Watch the video or scroll down for the transcript.

Healing Burnout With The Enneagram

Samantha: This conversation is jam packed with insights and tools and beautiful metaphors that will help you on your journey for healing with burnout and avoiding burnout in the future. And even if you've never burned out, it will help you support someone who has, or who is recovering today. I'm talking with Joanne Kim of OliveMe Counseling, a marriage and family therapist based in California. She's a Certified Brainspotting practitioner and Enneagram trained professional. We talk about the five main feelings. The fifth one might surprise you and the surprising feeling we need to access more often to help us shift out of burnout and the five things we need more of to help nourish ourselves and support our recovery. And we talked about which one each center of intelligence needed to do more of or to focus or prioritize on. Now there are a lot of links in the notes to get more information to help you connect with Joanne. And let me know in the comments, which metaphor or framework you love the most, and they're going to start using in your life. All right, that's it. Enjoy.

Samantha: So we're talking about burnout and how we can heal it with the Enneagram. It may be that a good place to start is what is burnout? Like, and how do we know that we have it?

Joanne: I think one signal for burnout is that we've just exhausted our reserves. That when we had more energy, we operate one way. And then when we burnt out, it has all the spiky stuff that we're usually not proud of. So as a therapist, I usually work with people around their emotions and our emotions. I'm biased. I'm a four. Like I do a lot of feelings work, but I believe that each emotion has its own message behind it. Our emotions are supposed to tell us what we need at the end of the day. But if we label some feelings as good and others as bad, then we kind of get all tangled up. And burnout is one outcome where we've played favorites with our feelings so much so that we get all tangled up and stuck. And then on top of that, we get frustrated at ourselves, frustrated at other people. So I think anger is probably a really central emotion when it comes to burnout because usually anger is a very active, dynamic, powerful emotion. Once you use up all your resources, you're usually left with the other ones. Anxiety, numbness, sadness, loneliness, partially because in our burnt out state, we make a lot of decisions that cause more problems for us to have to clean up.

Samantha: It's really interesting the way you, you frame it all within that realm of emotions, because I remember when I was burnt out the second time, I was just exhausted, I'd taken a job that I had loved and stopped caring. And when I, when I resigned to essentially go and sleep for three months, they offered me what then was my dream job. And I just, I couldn't care about it. I couldn't, I couldn't find any, any emotion to get excited, to come back from the brink, um, there.

Joanne: Well, the, there's a possibility that the emotion that you were feeling a lot of back then was numbness. I asked people like, what are you feeling right now? And often people say, well, I don't feel anything. I usually then follow up with the question, is it that you don't feel anything in particular or that you feel numb because numbness is the presence of a specific feeling. And so like chafing, you know, when our skin keeps rubbing against the same part over and over again until it's like rub raw, right. Numbness kind of kicks in to help reduce it constantly being activated, right? Constantly being stimulated or triggered. And so part of burnout is we've exhausted our resources in overly focusing, overly working, overly paying attention to things that we just can’t anymore. So numbness comes in. It's a very protective thing. It's so that we don't continue to expend more energy, but numbness is sometimes seen as a problem. You see someone sitting on a bench just staring off into space and you're like, are they okay? Hey, wake up. Come back, right? We kind of shake people out of that state because sometimes we're uncomfortable with people being in a flat state But maybe that's our body's way of trying to actually help us in that instead of us needing more, more stimulation, more activity, more intensity, maybe we actually need less. If we give ourselves less to give our bodies a chance to recover, then I think naturally our faculties will come back online, will be present again, and we'll be able to enjoy things. What you're describing when you said, you know, like they offered me a position that was my dream job and I just wasn't interested, There's a term called anhedonia that is one, it's actually one particular marker of depression or burnout. Hedonia, that's kind of where we get the word hedonic pleasure, right? So anhedonia means no pleasure. It's the state that person gets into where they don't feel joy over things that really used to excite them, probably because their nervous system has been so bombarded already.

Samantha: It's so interesting because that's a seven. You know, it's all about pleasure. And it's so interesting to think that at some point there is just no capacity for pleasure anymore. It's um, that's fascinating. So I'm gonna turn to the types in just a second, but I want to just call out what you said, that numbness is a protection mechanism. And I think that's really important because most of us think numb is bad, but I think one of the most pivotal moments in working with my therapist was when she said, could you be numb? Could you be feeling numb? And I'm like, Oh, I feel numb all the time. This is just my state of being. And having lived in that state for such a long time, it was amazing to have a reframe for it. That was so helpful.

Joanne: Yeah. I mean, I think about numbness kind of being like a styling back on our sauces in food. One of my favorite foods is sushi, Japanese food. And one of the things I love about Japanese food is that it's not centered around heavy sauces. It's more down to the freshness of the ingredients themselves. I live in the United States where like most of the restaurants here, they constantly just like douse their salads, their meats, everything in like such intense flavors. And then they accompany that with like extra cocktails or other things that just keeps adding more intensity. And some of the close people, um, in my life, that's what they gravitate towards, because that's what their taste buds are used to. And so when it comes to them eating Japanese food, it's like a taste test. Very bland and boring. And so it's taken me some time as a way of connecting with my body to actually practice cutting out flavors, reducing the amount of sugar I put in my coffee, dialing it back on the sauces, drinking tea without any extra additives into it. And then like noticing like, Oh, there's actually a lot going on here. There's a lot of subtlety to it. That totally got missed, buried under all the extra stuff that we do, but that's basically what we do in our day to day life lots of activities, full schedules, you know adding TV shows that are about like murder mysteries that keep us up until you know late at night because of all these cliffhangers.

Breaking the Cycle: Embracing Silence, Stillness, and Solitude to Reconnect with Yourself

Samantha: I'm thinking as a head type, I need to learn some more, and I can imagine for heart types, I've got to keep relating, I've got to keep connecting, and body types, I've got to keep doing. And we get stuck in those, that, those false, you know, narratives, um, that we don't realize add intensity into our system, that are extra source.

Joanne: Yup. And so one of the main things that I teach my therapy and coaching clients, they usually reach out to me because they're so good at focusing on and taking care of other people's needs that they forget their own until they get so resentful that they just can't take it anymore. And so one of the first things that I teach them is about numbness. As I've shared with you, that numbness is not the absence of feelings, but it's the presence of a very specific emotion. And then they're like, Oh yeah, that's what I feel all the time. And then the concrete step is to focus on one of the Five S's of Less. Okay. These are Silence, Stillness, Solitude, Simplicity, and Space.

These are the different ways by which we can dial back and all the ways that we're constantly bombarding ourselves. But three of those things, silence, solitude, and stillness correspond with the triads of the Enneagram. Silence for head types, lots of chatter going on. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many possibilities or options. Solitude for hard types. And dialing it back, spending time by oneself to oneself for oneself, instead of constantly focusing on other people's experiences, stillness for body types, because there's constantly a lot of activity and busyness. Busyness is seen as a badge of honor, especially in my part of the world, in the Silicon Valley. These three things are also described in a lot of different spiritual or faith traditions. Like they've been talked about for thousands of years, maybe. And the Enneagram has also been talked about for thousands of years. Right. And so it's like, it's no wonder that, you know, a lot of human existence is us just trying to learn the basics all over again. And it's just not quite getting, making its way in.

Samantha: And it seems ridiculous that it's so hard to learn the basics and yet is our daily struggle. So when I took those three months off work, you basically described those five things exactly what I had unintentionally. So I did have an extremely long list of things I was going to do every day. And thankfully I had a mentor who said to me, write them all down, but only do exactly what you like you and your body feels like in the moment. And literally all I did was sleep. I would occasionally eat and occasionally go for walks. I didn't watch TV. I didn't read books. I didn't do yoga. Like I didn't do the massive list of things. And it's still even with that three months. And then I sort of started to slowly work again, still took another two years before I could work full time. And even on those first few weeks and months and years, I could still only work a few hours a week in terms of providing that focus because I still need so much of those five things. Cause I'd been denying them for myself for so long.

Joanne: Yeah, I kind of think of them as items on a menu. Take your pick. What's on your, what's on your plate today?

Samantha: Yeah. And if you push it, you'll have to do all five at once.

Joanne: I mean, we're trying to do less here, not more. I get it. I mean, so I think one of the, main instincts that tend to show up in my practice, I get a lot of folks who are self pressed dominant who are so good at trying to optimize and hyper optimize, like how can I cram the most stuff in the shortest period of time, go for efficacy and efficiency? It's the trap of optimization in that the more we try to optimize, the less efficient we get. I mean, this is, you've heard of instances where, you know, multitasking is not effective, but it happens so easily for a good number of us like it's just reflex like thinking I need to get I need to go to the grocery store to grab some milk, on my way to the grocery store I'll also pass by the post office and I'll also stop by the you know other store where I need to return something and then somehow a single task of getting milk from the grocery store becoms like five or six things and then I'm frustrated because people won't drive fast enough in front of me. So I was like, where did this frustration come from? It came out of nowhere. It came out of thin air, but really is the expectations that I placed on myself. For what reason? I don't even remember anymore because it's part of my autopilot and being self pressed dominant person. And so that's one of the things that I also share with them. It's like, well, Could it be possible that you try to optimize is actually what's leading to anti-optimization? If that's the case, would it be the case that you focusing on one thing at a time might actually make you quicker? Can we just take things off your plate? Focus on that one thing at a time. A lot of my clients hate it. They're like, why?

Samantha: Well, and I feel like getting so burnt out and getting so sick forced me to have to focus on one thing at a time. And yet I've noticed the past couple of weeks that actually multitasking has started to look different from what I expected. And so it's sneaky how it creeps back in, even when you think you've done like a lot of work on it.

Joanne: So when it comes to our own personal inner work, like, uh, my Enneagram teachers like mentioning that we have to be extra vigilant in constantly looking out for how our Enneagram autopilot will try to sneak its, sneakily sneak its way back in. And then we're all of a sudden tangled back right back up again. Mm. So sneaky.

Samantha: So you mainly see nines, ones, twos and fours. Is that right? In your practice? And so like, what are some of the like differences that you see in terms of what burnout can look like? Because I know some people think, well, nines, they're so slothlike how could they possibly have burnout? But they're such hard workers. I'm curious about that. And then, you know how the different types can start to focus on one of those five S's. And how they can start to be a little more inefficient.

Joanne: Yeah, so the reason why I work with nines, ones, twos, and fours is because on the Enneagram Diagram, they're the right side of that circle. Nines kind of straddle it at the top. But I've heard in some resources that the right side of the symbol is called the Social or the Prosocial types, and then the left side being called the antisocial types. Hmm. And the difference is that prosocial types tend to have their own patterns that are often oriented around going along with other people. Whereas antisocial types tend to do things more independently of others or sometimes even against other people. So because that's what's built into the type structure, the reason why those who are on the right side of the Enneagram tend to get burnt out is because they constantly orient themselves around other people or things outside of them. You know, focusing on other people's experiences, their feelings, their needs. Like you can see 9s, 1s, 2s, 4s are kind of the exception to the rule, but like in a lot of ways, nines and twos just generally focusing their attention outside of themselves forgetting themselves their own wants and needs. Twos they might think about their own needs, but kind of in after they already get resentful about it and not having it reciprocated in their relationships. Ones often repressing their own wants and needs because they think their needs are bad and trying to be a good person whatever that means to the point where they just paint themselves as a dead corner and they find out they have needs anyway. And then, fours, fours tend to focus on other people, but in opposition. So on the surface, it seems like they're the ones where they don't care about what other people think. They absolutely care about what other people think, but they just try to define themselves as opposite. And so they also get burnt out. In that there's no central anchor point in them being connected to who they inherently are, image type. And so all four of them, I mean, I would work with threes too, if they thought that therapy was useful. I don't often see them. Uh, but in, in the way that the prosocial types, their types often and, blurring distinctions between themselves and others, they blur the boundaries. So, it's like we're ones. I am not myself, but I am someone who fills a specific role in a collective. I am known for my position, for my power, my responsibility, my actions, the consequences. I don't have any sense of inherent individuality. I am a cog in a bigger machine. Like that's just kind of generally how I think ones operate. And so there's a lot of guilt in even admitting that they're exhausted and they have needs because they should be doing more, you know, twos also feeling similarly, but more for relationship reasons. It's like, well, what if they don't like me anymore? Type of thing. There's a lot of anxiety that keeps people focused outside of themselves. Until they get burnt out, they get resentful, shit hits the fan, things break, and then they, you know, reach out to a therapist like myself, and they're like, I don't, I don't know why I keep doing this to myself, right? And some of them, they already know their Enneagram type, and so we can just jump right in as to how their type shows up in different ways. Some of them are like, I don't even know why I keep doing this to myself. And it's like a whole like eye-opening experience for them to realize that autopilots exist and that they happen to have a specific autopilot. So in terms of all four of those types, probably solitude is the main thing for nines and twos. As the others referencing types. Nines, especially like with sloth, you might see this less in self presence, but more social sexual lines that are inherently people oriented, where if they don't have anyone to merge to, they're just kind of floating aimlessly and there's no movement. Right. But that's precisely why they need to spend time away from agendas being implemented from other people and more to themselves. Um, ones probably could benefit from stillness and silence and quieting the shoulds instead of thinking of shoulds. It's, you know, the idealist types ones, fours and sevens are like, well, things, how things should be, how things could be, how things could have been versus thinking of how things are for, you know, how, how they just are, right? So for ones and fours, focusing on what's present, what exists already, instead of looking towards a potential or hypothetical possibility. Simplicity, ones and fours probably could use a lot of that because they make things way too complicated. Um, and space, I like thinking of space, like, yeah, uh, opposite of clutter, just having constant things around and just needing even physical room, literally going outside in nature, standing under the big sky, seeing oneself as a small, tiny speck in the larger universe, I think ones, twos and fours could really benefit from that because in our different ways, we think of ourselves as so important. So, those are just a little bit of different examples of how the five S's would kind of integrate for each person according to their type.

Escaping Autopilot: How Caring Too Much Can Lead to Burnout and Numbness

Samantha: And it's so interesting how that autopilot really creates that pattern of setting aside feelings, not tending to the things that are difficult. Or in the fourth case wallowing in those feelings, but yeah, you know, all the self pressure can equally just not pay attention to them. And just thinking about how we started this conversation about how there is all these feelings and we need the information that they're bringing us. And when we're just too busy or just too on autopilot or caught up with all the, the thoughts that are saying we should do this and we have to do that, those feelings don't get heard Because I wouldn't have thought of burnout as being not having the time to tend to or listen to our feelings coming up and that just and they bottling up till we get numb I'm just finding that connection fascinating and seeing that all come together in that way because I think it's easy to think of burnout is I've just done too much as opposed to I've cared too much.

Joanne: So there's a couple different terms. There's compassion fatigue. There's vicarious trauma. There's my favorite term, ruinous empathy or empathy gone too far. Kim Scott in her book, Radical Candor, fantastic. I would highly recommend it, but again, pro social types, giving too much of a damn about lots of different things. I mean nines kind of might have an easier time because part of their autopilot is to be in numbness - the narcotization right the checking out But in some ways all those types need to care less about whatever the types focus on and to care more about things that are in the blind spot. It's just that it just so happens that for all four of them what's in their blind spot is their own needs and wants. So I like talking in general. When I introduce emotions, I talk about what I call the big five feelings, mad, sad, glad, scared, numb. Obviously, there are more feelings than that. Yeah, but you add numb into the big five. That's really interesting. Okay. And part of the reason for that is I mean, anger, sadness, joy, fear. Those are usually mentioned when people talk about the main emotions, but I swapped out disgust for numb because numb is the presence of an actual feeling instead of the absence of them. And I like thinking of these as a set. They go hand in hand. For example, anger is a very present tense, action oriented, expansive, powerful emotion. Sadness is more focused on the past and what could have been. In a very low energy, more contemplative, kind of heart driven space, joy being the emotion that says that things are good and they're available in their presence right now. Anxiety that's pointing towards the future of what could be, but towards the negative and also very active emotion, but it usually makes a person feel Seems smaller, whereas anger makes them seem bigger and then numbness, which is like, I don't care about anything. I'm going to dampen all of these guys. Right. And so when it comes to burnout, usually the main emotions in question are anger and numbness. I mentioned why numbness is the case because we've given too much of ourselves and we just don't have anything left in the tank. Right. Or we've gone through too many experiences in a short period of time and our nervous system is completely fried. What we don't think about is that anger is actually something that we need more of, not less, when we're burnt out. But it's not anger being frustrated towards other people, because people usually think of anger as a bad emotion. Like, oh, we shouldn't be angry. Whereas anger actually says, this really fucking matters. Numbness says nothing matters. Right? So the opposite of that is like, you know, this specific thing or I or that other person really matters and that what's happening to that person needs to change now. There's a sense of urgency and the, um, requirement for major shifts to happen agency action will all that. So when we get to a point of burnout, we're not in a place to feel sadness, joy, anxiety, because we're checked out. Right. But we can't stay in the state in this space for very long because we still have things like life still continues even when we're burnt out, right? We need to actually use anger, see it as a potential good emotion and use it on our behalf so that we're not in a position where our body needs to summon numbness for us. If we had tapped into the fiery, vibrant, creative energy of anger in the first place. as pro-social type, we would not have been in a place where our needs were running on empty, that our own experiences were missed by other people. We would actually speak on behalf of ourselves. We would address situations where we are unfavored or looked over or taken advantage of. So I would think of burnout as being the outcome of us having done, underly having done anger, not doing it too much. And so in addition to us actually doing nothing, we need to actually start connecting with that creative energy again.

Samantha: I love how you call anger creative energy, that those things are rarely paired together, but I can really see how powerful that is. And my first thought was, It's not okay to be angry on your behalf. Like it's okay to be angry on other's behalf, but it's really hard to summon that energy on your own behalf. Cause I, as I think back to what led me to be burnout, I couldn't have expressed anger at other people, but you're right, I could have generated some anger on my behalf and led me to make different choices.

Joanne: Yeah. And I've come to this conclusion in my own Enneagram work, because I am a four who's self preservation instinct dominant and sexual repressed and I had a lot of biases against the sexual instinct and I think that instinct itself is probably the most directly connected to anger. The sexual instinct is also connected to spontaneity, intensity, what's wild, what's vibrant, what's fun, exciting, things like that. Whereas a self pressed dominant person, I kind of clamp it all down. Right. And so as I started summoning my own repressed instinct, the sexual instincts and started tapping into more of my anchor, it's like, well, I don't have as much buildup of those other feelings anymore because my needs are getting met more directly instead of in a roundabout way, instead of me constantly exhausting myself, feeling like I have to prove that I deserve goodness. As if I don't already deserve goodness, right? And so anger was probably one of the most healing emotions to connect with. That was a huge surprise to me. I'm like, what do you mean I'm supposed to do anger more? I want to do it less.

Samantha: I want to do as little as possible. It's so funny. It reminds me one time I was in this Martial arts class and I was hitting something and they said, imagine it's a person's face and boy, did I get so much more focused and I had energy that just, I didn't know I had the second I put someone's face in it.Yeah. I think it's, it is really important to reframe and re-understand what anger is because most of us think of it as rage. And yet it's simply an ability to stand up for ourselves and others, but anger can be extremely quiet. It just has this presence. It's grounded. It's focused, it's clear, it's direct. It doesn't have to be loud and critical or violent in any way.

Joanne: No, I think violent, the violent explosive type of anger is most likely to happen when we don't give anger its rightful place to show up. Like if there were adequate opportunities for us to speak up about what we're needing directly. Actually, the tone of anger can sound like, Hey, can I get my stapler back? It becomes big because it's repressed and then it goes underground and it comes out the black market. There's just one more piece is that I think in just studying different aspects of the Enneagram - those who have a sexual dominant instinct probably get unfairly pegged as being too much, too bad, too intense, too angry, too whatever But I mean i'm speaking as someone who's not sexual dominant I think sexual dominant folks probably get too much flack that they actually need to be seen with respect. And we need to know what value they bring to this world, that those who are sexually repressed, especially, need to actually do more of, not less.

Samantha: Completely. And the more I spend time with people whose Enneagram type I know, when they say something that I, that is really unexpected to me, I'm able to value it a lot more. You know, when a six says you should question that, I'd be like, no, no, it's fine. I I'll just take it. It's great. And I'm like, well, maybe. Maybe I should question that. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, you know, and it's, I'm finding that really useful because each type, each dominant instinct brings its own value, even though it brings its own autopilot. It brings value and we can learn so much from other people, even Um, as we're all doing our inner work to tame those instincts, calm those autopilots. So the thing I wanted to ask about is the caring too much piece and learning how to care less, because when I was going through that, it felt like a part of me had to die to start caring, to stop caring about the things I was cared about so much. And it was a really difficult reframe because I thought if I stopped caring about these things, who am I? What am I, what's left if I stop caring so much? And so I'm curious how you might help types make that shift.

When Growth Disrupts: How Personal Development Challenges Relationship Dynamics and Autopilot Tendencies

Joanne: Well, in all the types, I think of all the types as archetypes of the universal human experience. We resonate with a little bit about all the types. We just get stuck in one. It's the one that's most familiar. So much so that we just assume that's the default. And we see this, especially in relationships where different types tend to be drawn towards each other. And oftentimes they're like the types that share a line on the arrows path, right? Or wings even. Right? I think that the things that we value in our types are probably ways by which we outsource to someone else things that we actually need to do for ourselves. So, I'll give you type 2 and type 8 as an example. Type 2s. They care so much about other people in their autopilot when actually they actually need to take some of that care towards others and direct it towards themselves so that they get their needs met more directly instead of through another person. But it's as if them caring for themselves is bad, therefore they need to go about this in a direct way. Type 8s. Type 8s are known to really value strength and power, or at least not being vulnerable. But they outsource, they, they lop off their vulnerability. and they project it onto someone else, making someone else seem smaller and weaker than they actually are, and thereby making themselves feel bigger and stronger than they actually are. And so they're usually going together in a set, because often apes need someone to protect. Right. Right. And so, in a sense, like, we hear of instances where opposites attract. Well, part of the reason why they might attract each other is because each person is outsourcing to the other person what they ought to do for themselves. A lot of 2 5 combos in relationships. Right. And so at a certain point, when there are these relationships formed, there isn't a huge problem that happens when one person starts growing. When a person starts healing and starts doing their work, they give away things that they have no business taking on, like other people's responsibilities. And then they take back what's rightfully theirs, like their own power and voice. Well, what happens if you have equilibrium between these two people and then one person starts changing? Well, that's gonna completely disrupt the whole thing. And so often there's pushback because this person's like, well, what are you doing? You're supposed to stay in your position because that's the agreement that we made, right? And so when it comes to caring too much, it's not clear whether what we care about is actually what we, in our essence, care about, or what our autopilots care about. It's not clear whether eyes of four really value authenticity, or the type four values authenticity.and I need to recognize how I have my autopilot, but I'm not my auto, but there's some space that I need to create more distance from. And so when people do their personal work, there's a huge portion of it where everything is turned upside down and people don't know which side is up anymore. It's like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to like practice anger on purpose. Like I thought anger was a bad emotion. That's supposed to be like super destructive. Like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to do the very thing that I've vowed to stay as far away from. What do you mean? I'm supposed to have boundaries. Like, that's being selfish, like, you know, there's a lot of turmoil and resistance and the dissonance is actually probably a marker that people are growing. So I usually at this point encourage them, it's like, you're going in the right direction. It's just going to feel like crap for a long time.

Samantha: Yeah. And to be able to ask those questions and even to recognize that there is a paradox and there is things out of alignment is, yeah.

Joanne: So I like thinking about our autopilot, like someone who's about to get laid off, they're about to lose their job and they're freaking out. So they start creating all these problems that it knows how to solve so that it stays employed. I think that's what our Enneagram type ego structure is like. So instead of us judging ourselves, like, why do I keep finding myself in the same situation over and over again? I can't get out of it. And then they judge themselves like, no, there's an active second party with its own agenda and its own desire. Its agenda is to keep you in autopilot in the ego. This other person has an agenda for you to not notice what it's doing, but for you to judge yourself instead. So once we think about, Oh, There's another entity that is trying to get me to do something. Okay. Let me turn on my inner rebel and create some space and some boundaries with my own type so that I can find out who I really am. So it's a lot of cloudy mind work for a lot of people in their process.

Samantha: I love that explanation of the, the type is someone who's about to get fired and working really hard to stay employed, and to conjure your inner rebel. Like, I love these two little metaphors. They're fantastic.

Reclaiming Joy: How Building a 'Fuck-It' List Can Heal Burnout and Reconnect You with Your Inner Child

Joanne: I mean, in psychology, we call that externalizing. We need to put that outside of ourselves instead of thinking that it's a part of us and who we truly are. And so once people start. thinking that there's a whole way of living, then it just opens all these possibilities. But in order to get there, there's going to be a huge section of that path where it's going to feel like we're going in the opposite direction and that's okay. Keep going instead of stopping. But this is why I don't blame people for wanting to stay in their ego. It is everyone's personal decision as to whether or not to pursue this path. And so I'm very thankful when people do, but I also don't blame people for not doing so.

Samantha: Yeah, that autopilot works pretty hard and it can be hard to see it in action. So just, just wrapping up on burnout and all those feelings we can't access and needing to get into anger more to like advocate on our own behalves and what we need and also the solitude, silence, space.

Joanne: Stillness. Simplicity. Yeah. Stillness and simplicity. I'll, I'll give you the link to the blog so that there's a quick link. Perfect. It's all listed in there.

Samantha: Okay. Awesome. Any, uh, final thoughts or words on healing burnout with the Enneagram?

Joanne: Ooh. Um, one of my favorite activities I recommend is for people to build a Fuck It List. This is a list, not of all the things that people want to do before they die, like bucket lists operate, but a fuck it list is a list of all the things that they never gave themselves permission to do, but they really wanted to do growing up. This is learning how to tap into our inner children. Again, because a lot of the pro-social types are ones that grew up way too quickly. So they lost a lot of that innocence, that carefreeness, the inherent sense of their own goodness. And a lot of sense learning from a lot of our sevens, right? Tapping into joy, purity, ease to kind of offset the hard work that gets them to a place of burnout in the first place. So one of mine was to get a tattoo or to go watch a movie by myself in the theater. It doesn't have to be super intense. Instead of looking for permission from the outside, doing it.

Samantha: I like it. It doesn't have to be super intense. And yet going to the movies by ourselves can be a super intense experience. You know, you don't have to go jump off a cliff. To do some deep inner work, you know, and sit in that discomfort of doing something that you've never had permission to do before.

Joanne: Simplicity. Simplicity. Thank you so much for taking me through all this today. Thank you for having me here.

---

What are the emotional habits of your Enneagram type?

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SAMANTHA MACKAY

Samantha Mackay is an Enneagram coach certified by Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. She has spent 15 years healing from chronic stress, anxiety, depression, pain, an autoimmune condition and, more recently, trauma.

She believes that understanding the role of our ego in our healing is key. Samantha helps people reclaim their inner wellbeing through the wisdom of the Enneagram. For their bodies, for their work and for our relationships with others, at home and at work.

Learn more about her here.

What's Your Relationship With Rest?

In another blog, I shared about how my feelings about my birthday changed over time.

In a similar way, so have my sentiments towards all things related to REST -relaxation, stillness, vacation, play.

One of the reasons was because I have an allergic reaction to JOY. (Mine is very Enneagram 4ish, but other types have their own versions. I also hear a ton from Enneagram 1s or those who have a dominant Self-preservation instinct as to why joy is difficult for them.)

When good, fun things come up, I would feel FEAR instead, accompanied by lotsa anxious thoughts:

• "What if something bad happens while I'm having a good time?"

• "What if I have such a great time and then it ends? Will I be okay?"

• "What if it'll turn out disappointing?"

...or SHAME:

• "I haven't done enough to deserve a vacation."

• "There's so much to do, and not enough time or money."

• "I feel bad for leaving the people I'm taking care of."

As such, rest (and even play!) are LEARNED SKILLS, not something that comes readily to me.

So how did I go from rarely resting to now having regular vacations multiple times a year?

Nowadays, there are 6 weeks off that are just built into my calendar:

• my birthday week

• my anniversary week 

• holidays 

• a buncha mini vacays sprinkled in between...just because.

(The less often you take time off, the more you're FORCED to take time off because you get sick, burned out, can't focus, etc. It also takes longer time for you to decompress and get into rest mode - some might even spend half their vacation time just catching up on sleep.

The more often you take a break, the more readily you can drop into rejuvenation mode. Taking many shorter breaks throughout the year is better than taking a single extended time off!) 

(From my time in Taiwan! So rejuvenating being in luscious nature... 🌿)

Here are some things that helped me practice regular rest & play on purpose:

(1) Realizing that I have Ruinous Empathy 

When I overextend myself in caring for others out of guilt or shame but to the point of burnout or resentment.

Those who should pay close attention to Ruinous Empathy include:

• Enneagram 9

• Enneagram 1

• Enneagram 2

• Enneagram 4 (Self-preservation)

• Enneagram 7 (Social)

• Enneagram 8 (social)

(2) Inverted Golden Rule 

I ought to do unto myself as I would do unto others (if I encourage others to take breaks, so should I).

I should not make myself the exception to the rule as my Enneagram 4 autopilot wants me to.

Those who are Enneagram 2s should watch out for their pride playing out by living as if you don't/shouldn't have needs.

(3) Practicing childlikeness to counter shame 

If a helpless baby - who's super unproductive and contributes nothing to the world but literal poop - is deserving of goodness, fun, and joy, why wouldn't I?

Those who tend to be "extra serious/grown up" or tries to prove their worth by DOING include:

• Competency types - Enneagram 1, 3, 5

• Reactive (negative) types - Enneagram 4, 6, 8

• Types who have a hard time letting go of control - Enneagram 1, 6, 8

• "Adult", responsible types - Enneagram 1, 2, 6

• Idealist types who live in the SHOULDs/COULD HAVEs - Enneagram 1, 4

(4) Following nature's footsteps 

If seasons of inactivity and seasons of activity go hand-in-hand (one not lesser or greater than the other), what would it look like in my life to integrate both?

What if there's MORE to life than just what my Enneagram type tells me? What biases am I reinforcing? What's in my blind spot?

It took me quite some time to get to where I am now regarding rest, so if a 6-weeks-off-per-year approach seems out of reach for you because of responsibilities or resources - no problem.

The important thing is that you begin moving more in that direction little by little STARTING TODAY.

Some questions for you:

• What's your relationship with taking time off? Do you have any emotional reactions to the topic of rest?

• How does your Enneagram type feed into this? What themes might be playing into this?

• How can you take one small step towards building in more rejuvenation time into your calendar?

Reflections of an Enneagram Type 4 at an Inner Work Retreat

I wanted to share a little bit about some of the things that stood out to me personally at the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy's Retreat . You can watch the video below or keep scrolling to read the transcript.

My Inner Pendulum

As someone who's recently taken on the practice of yoga, whenever I sit cross legged on the floor, I visualize a pendulum that's inside of my heart. There's something about sitting upright and very still, quieting my self, my thoughts, my heart. It feels like the pendulum is very still, centered.

I was wondering why that imagery stood out to me. I am now realizing that it's because, as a Four, having a very internal turbulence and lots of moving thoughts and feelings and basically being everywhere else except where I am. That's the passion of envy.

My pendulum, on the inside, is always constantly moving. Shifting. Never quite still. Always seeking what's on the other side.

As we all do, we put outside what we feel on the inside. I realized that the vast majority of my life I've been living as if I'm this swinging pendulum, always on the extremes never settled, never steady.

So at this retreat this visual came up to me again.

Slow & Leisurely

Being at a very beautiful retreat center, I'm surrounded by trees and quiet, I decided to be very intentional and deliberate about moving. Like literally moving my body very slowly. So, when going on strolls around I imagined myself moving through molasses in a very steady and slow way, as if time was slowing down.

There's something that happened inside of me where I felt that pendulum being very still and I'm moving so slowly so that the pendulum stays centered and grounded and that felt so freaking good. To be very steady and still and quiet, not constantly on this chase.

In previous retreats I knew what I want to work on. I knew what I want to get out of it. I knew the things that I wanted to jump right into. Let's go, let's make it happen!

And this time around it was more like I don't have any particular thing that's stirring up inside of me, there isn't any particular thing I want to work on. That's not to say that I don't have things to work on, but in that moment, it felt as if I deeply feel okay and content where I am, as I am.

And I gotta say, that is not the typical experience that is attributed to Fours. That's how I knew that this was from outside of myself. It's not anything that I was particularly trying to conjure up. But maybe built on the foundation of all the work that I've done in prior years. Like maybe I am ready to be very present and centered.

Floating, Unanchored

The Type Four experience is like someone who is floating out into the middle of the ocean, and they have no idea which direction is which. Sometimes they go underwater. Sometimes they're above water. It's a lot of feeling lost or disoriented. Unanchored.

Another imagery coming up is like someone who's floating out in space. There's no up or down, left or right, and their tether or umbilical cord is severed. I think that's kind of what describes a lot of the Four experiences. Feeling very aimless, lost, constantly confused and disoriented. Not really feeling tethered or connected to anything and so constantly having this sense of needing to reconnect or to find that supposed connection that was lost.

I feel like I'm in a very different place right now. Or maybe a more accurate way of saying it is I feel like I have access to a different place.

What’s next?

I don't know yet if this is here to stay. If this is going to be the new baseline. But honestly, I never really thought that I could ever be here before. I always thought that I would be constantly needing to be on the chase for something outside.

I'm sharing this with you partially as a way for y'all to get to know me. A lot of people get the impression that I have all my shit together because of the work that I do or the things that people see on my website or my blogs or Instagram or whatnot. A lot of that has been out of a sense of this Self-Preservation Four like, "Let's go, let's get things done, let's make things happen!"

Seemingly effortless, but really striving

I've realized over the years that I've accidentally created this image for other people, especially those who are in the same industries, that I do things very effortlessly. That things come very easily and very naturally to me. Half the time when I do coaching calls with other fours they are like, “I don't know how you do what you do. It seems so polished and put together.” Internally I'm thinking, if only you knew just how much work I put into it.

I don't know what will come up in what I create as I choose into this state of being steady and connected. I'm hoping that a lot of the frenetic energy and this sense of, I better hurry up and do this or else. That state, I hope it will settle down a lot more.

What that means as to what all of y'all would be hearing from me, there's a possibility that I might change the pace, or the direction or, I don't know.

I don't have a whole lot of particular strategies or anything of what I want to write for y'all, but something in me tells me that maybe this is the direction to go in allowing myself to show up like this more often. Being a fellow traveler with you in your own journey, in your own growth process.

I have to share a lot more with you regarding different aspects of the Enneagram, and I don't want to share these things with you as someone who is like above or anything. Or set apart as if I've like mastered anything. It's more like here are some things that I've come across along the way in the ways that I've connected with this deeper truth.

And I hope that some things really resonate with you and call you towards whatever is your next step.

If you’re thinking about going to one of these Enneagram retreats for your own personal growth, here’s a blog about 5 ways the CP Enneagram Retreats can supercharge your growth.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How Enneagram Retreats Help You Grow

Transformation from the Inside Out

As a huge part of my training in becoming an Enneagram therapist, I wanted to work on my own type’s ego patterns through personal inner work.

(If you don't know what the Enneagram is, start here!)

I wanted to do this with my Enneagram teachers - Beatrice Chestnut & Uranio Paes — founders of Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy — through their Personal Mastery & Professional Certification Tracks.

The Personal Mastery Track involves 3 retreats:

• The Experiential Enneagram

• The Psychological Enneagram

• The Alchemical Enneagram (here are my reflections on this one)

Even though I've completed the Personal Mastery Track, I intend on attending these retreats as as part of my heart cleaning annual tradition.

If you're eager and intentional about personal transformation using the Enneagram, here are 5 reasons why I think you def should consider attending one of their CP Enneagram retreats.

(Btw, I'm not getting paid to say any of this...Just really want for you to see for yourself what this form of transformation is like!)

Reason #1: More than just head knowledge

You can read all the books and watch all the seminars about the various Enneagram types and growth steps, but there's nothing that beats seeing things firsthand and hearing about what each type takes away from the exact same activity or prompt.

You might conceptually know about how Heart Types (Enneagram 2s, 3s, and 4s) are image-oriented shapeshifters, but to visibly see in real time just how they shift their body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, and gestures to get people to like, admire, or understand them...that's a whole 'nother thing.

You might have heard Enneagram 6s be called "The Contrarian" or "Questioner" but might not understand why until you hear a Six say, "But why??" for the fifth time in a single conversation, constantly pushing back against what was said immediately before.

You might know that Body types (Enneagram 8s, 9s, and 1s) exist, but might not know what that really means until you hear them talk about how they respond to a new situation or decision, that they have a sense of "right or wrong" they sense instinctually in their bodies.

Even Enneagram concepts like arrows work or subtypes come to life when you visibly see them played out concretely.

• How do the different Enneagram subtypes differ from each other?

• What does "taming" the dominant instinct look like?

• What about "nurturing" the repressed instinct?

• How is the Enneagram symbol itself useful for growth?

Reason #2: Growing in the company of others

For various reasons, so many of us tend to try to heal and grow in isolation. 'Tis an overgeneralization, but this is what I've observed of the following groups:

• Heart types (Enneagram 2s, 3s, 4s) tend to feel embarrassed to be exploring their inner pain and struggles in front of others and thus tend to put up an image (or not know who they actually are)

• Head types (Enneagram 5s, 6s, 7s) tend to get stuck in their heads or have a hard time connecting with their own or others' emotions 

• Body types (Enneagram 8s, 9s, 1s) tend to influence (or be influenced) by others

• Self-preservation (SP) dominant folks tend to avoid situations where they don't know what to expect

• Social (SO) repressed folks tend to be mistrusting of groups

• Sexual (SX) dominant folks tend to prefer 1:1 interactions

Because our Enneagram types, subtypes, and instinct sequences reveal how our defense mechanisms (which used to be helpful) eventually create problems, a lot of our present day struggles may arise precisely because of an avoidance of connections with individuals and/or groups. Therefore, reengaging connections might be the very thing to help us get out of our own mess.

We can only heal relationship wounds in relationships. We can't "just get over it" by analyzing, avoiding, ignoring, or controlling relationships.

In these retreats, you're in the company of 20-25 individuals who are there to really do the hard inner work. Inevitably, you'll bump shoulders with SOMEONE in SOME WAY during those 5 days, but might also realize that this is similar to the kinds of struggles you experience in normal life. 

Consider these retreats like a safe laboratory where you can:

• learn more about your own patterns and reactions

• see them happening in real time (so that you might try something different)

• gain feedback about your actual impact on others (and compare them to what you assumed about yourself)

• receive encouragement or recommendations of what else to try

(For example, one of the other participants might have the same subtype as your mom who is so suffocating...This might be a great chance for you to do some deep healing as you interact with that participant differently than how you would with your mom.)

In normal life, you don't have any guarantees that the people you're bumping shoulders with are safe or well-intending. Precisely because people seek these retreats with the intention of truly growing beyond their respective bullshit patterns, you're in good company. What better place to try doing things differently? Sign up here!

Reason #3: Tuning into the Body Center

There's so much emphasis and bias towards Head Center experiences especially in the Western world. Those already intellectualize and also dampening their emotions or body experiences are often celebrated as "good", "mature", etc., whereas those who tend to be emotionally or energetically driven or outwardly expressive tend to be punished more severely.

In recent decades, there's been more welcoming to the Heart Center experiences, with people like Brene Brown or Susan David becoming household names. It's a great thing that there are more literature and media about Emotional Intelligence, nonviolent communication, empathy, etc. because it balances out the heady ways of life.

However, it's gonna take a long while until the Body Center experiences become just as integrated into society (the yoga & meditative movement is just the tip of the iceberg). Think about it - out of the three Centers of Intelligence (Head, Heart, and Body) how much more difficult is it to describe what exactly a Body type is?

More to come about the Body types, but in a nutshell, here are some contrasting concepts to illustrate different Centers of Intelligence:

Head - thoughts // concepts, security, certainty // fear

Heart - emotions // connections, image // shame/sadness

Body - energy // agency, action, will, justice // anger 

CP Enneagram Academy's retreats provide opportunities for you to see firsthand how each of the Centers show up and how you can become more balanced in all three. You'll also witness the nature of energy that is more normal for people who are familiar with Eastern traditions that we don't often see in the Western world.

Reason #4: Collective experiences 

In Reason #2 (Growing in the company of others), I talked about the growth experience that comes from literally engaging other people. There is another dimension of this too that deserves its own section. 

Another limitation to the Western world is the emphasis on the individual - Life is about ME, MY, MINE, including in personal inner work. There is less of an emphasis on WE, OUR, OURS, much to our detriment. So many of society's ailments (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.) might have been averted had we been more familiar with having a collective consciousness. 

As an Enneagram 4 (which is literally called the Individualist), this has been a huge blind spot of mine. I used to think that as long as I put in the work - if I read the books, attend the workshops, learn more concepts, and do the exercises), I would heal and grow. Only when I learned AMONG others in these retreats did I experience a whole new level of transformation that was impossible for me to attain on my own.

(For example, how can I move beyond my Enneagram 4 shame that says "I'm the ONLY person who struggles with this" until I hear 3-6 other people also say it's their struggle too?)

Discovering collective experiences is one thing...healing collectively is another. When ONE person heals a specific pain, OTHER PEOPLE might also heal in that area by virtue of being present in seeing that happen.

When I connected with and expressed my inner rage in a primal, gutteral scream, a ton of others in the room also unlocked something within themselves.

When I saw one woman (with whom I share very little in common) connecting with her grief in realizing how much time she lost in her reactivity -- I FELT that, too. 

What does this mean? When you are present for another person's pain & healing, you might heal yours too (and vice versa). How much time, opportunities, and money could we save by sharing the healing load?

Reason #5: Limits to therapy & coaching 

Obviously, as an Enneagram therapist & coach, I have a bias towards these fields. Tons of people across various types experience powerful life-changing transformations through these individualized sessions.

However, here are some of the drawbacks of therapy and coaching sessions.

• Hub & Spokes
  Sometimes I literally have the same conversation with 4-5 other within a week, with each person feeling like they're the only person who struggles with this or that they're going crazy. The nature of being a therapist is that everyone shares their deepest darkest secrets with me...not knowing that the person from the previous hour might have felt the same. I really wish I could connect y'all to each other!! Alas -- confidentiality is the law of the land.

• Unidirectional
  There's an uneven distribution of vulnerability (and therefore power) between me & my clients. I know WAY more about my clients than they do about me, and that might make some people feel more nervous or embarrassed in sharing things. How much more growth could happen if y'all were to know what I'm processing too so that you know you're not alone or crazy, that I wouldn't judge you bc you know that I know what it's like!

• Asynchronous
  People share what happened AFTER shit already hit the fan or BEFORE an important event (you can prepare for your interview all you want in session, but what will really happen when it's game time?)

• Expensive
  As much as I believe that therapy & coaching is worth it for many people, what if you could get the same degree of work for a lot less? A 50-min session with me is $275...Weekly sessions skipping holidays & vacations might come to $12,000+ per year. A single 5-day retreat where you get SO MUCH processing done (again, also because you're healing vicariously through others' work too) is $1,500-$2,400. I don't know about y'all, but sometimes retreats might make more math sense depending on the topic. 

There's def a time and place for therapy or coaching...but DO consider retreats as a great supplemental option for deeper work. Retreats don't replace therapy (in fact, Bea & Uranio would probably encourage some people to seek therapy to continue the work after these retreats), but they can definitely help heal or focus our attention on important areas that we might otherwise wander aimlessly around.

A word of caution

Now before you sign up right away, just some things to consider...

Only consider these retreats if you're NOT currently in any form of crisis (recent breakup, job loss, bereavement, psychiatric emergency, etc.). You might want to wait until your life feels somewhat steady before you dive into the depths.

Especially if you've NEVER done therapy before or come from a conservative religious background - there's a chance that what happens in these retreats might feel so out of left field, so different from your worldview, or so beyond your comfort level that you might feel overwhelmed, confused, or disoriented.

If after one of these retreats you need to process, reach out and let's do a coaching session so you can make more sense of what to do next.

It's totally okay to have lotsa feelings - sometimes that's a sign that a huge blind spot has been illuminated.

Have I convinced you enough about these retreats? Here's the link again if you're intrigued!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

My Annual Heart Cleaning

Every year, I'm digitally offgrid for several days at an inner work retreat with my Enneagram teachers Beatrice Chestnut & Uranio Paes, who founded the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy.

Some of these retreats, which are a part of their Professional Certification Track & Personal Mastery Track, became the milestone markers of how I've healed and grown over time, as I vividly remember what I was working through each of those moments.

Here’s are some things I worked on at these retreats:

• Recognizing my Enneagram 4 SP autopilot habits of:

  • Getting sucked into melancholy

  • Monologuing about past hurts (much like a broken record)

  • How I create my own suffering 

  • Push/pull dynamics in relationships

• Connecting with my physical body

• Tapping into & releasing pent up rage that's actually my ally

• Connecting with the flow of life, rather than trying to control everything 

Since starting my Enneagram journey, my life did a total 180. I barely recognize myself from when I was younger, and now have dimples to prove it!

This is a snapshot of how I used to be:

• "I AM how I feel."

• The "good, easy kid"

• Emotionally shut down, trying not to be a burden

• Closeted queer kid who grew up in the church

• MAJORLY repressed in all the ways 

• Withdrawn, disconnected from myself & others

• Queen of RBF (Resting Bitch Face)

• An intensity, drama, and complexity junky

• Way too familiar with anxiety, guilt, shame (partly bc I was allergic to anger)

• Depression, anxiety, panic attacks, loneliness, shame

• Suffering silently & solo 

...and how I am nowadays:

• "I have feelings, but I'm more than my feelings."

• Anger is one of many feelings that tell me what I need or want

• Open, flexible, light & easy

• Guilt-free rest & play as part of my normal rhythm 

• Open heart to receive whatever life has in store for me that day 

• Nurturing and pursuing my desires (rather than swinging between repression & resentment)

• Mutually nourishing relationships 

• Having the time of my life

Here’s a video of me sharing my takeaways from a past inner work retreat.

If you're wanting to supercharge your own inner work journey (I'm specifically looking at all y'all who tend to hoard heady knowledge about personal development without actually taking action), I HIGHLY recommend CP Enneagram's personal retreats.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Growth Tips for Each Enneagram Type (Part I)

The Enneagram tells us 9 different ways of seeing/responding to life that USED TO be helpful coping strategies when we were younger that NOW keep us stuck in painful situations.

(If you don’t know your Enneagram type, here’s a blog to help you find it.)

Here is one quick growth tip to help you grow BEYOND your Enneagram type!

Type 1 (The Improver)

• Go out in nature and observe how the trees & wildlife are imperfect AND YET are still worthy. Entertain the idea that the same might also apply to you.

Type 2 (The Befriender)

• What percentage of your time this week did you spend focusing on or doing something for other people?

• What's your guess as to what percentage of time non-Twos spend on others?

• Go gather info - ask 3 people you know (ideally non-Twos) this question and hear what they say.

• Notice the difference - What are the BENEFITS of spending less attention on others and more on themselves? 

Type 3 (The Achiever)

• How often have you felt the emotions of impatience or frustration this week around tasks?

• What might be the BENEFITS of things moving at a different speed or way that you would like?

Type 4 (The Individualist)

• (Without judging yourself) What is your guess as to the kind of impact you have on other people? (positive? negative? big? small? neutral?) Write the guess down.

• Ask 3 other people this question, then compare their answer to yours. Do their answers align with yours?

• If yes, what's that like having accurate self-assessment?

• If no, why do you suppose their responses are so different from yours?

Type 5 (The Observer)

• What's your reaction when you find out that you DON'T know something? How comfortable are you with the state of not knowing about a topic or not knowing how to do something?

• Does it matter whether other people know whether you do or don't have knowledge in an area? Are there ever moments when it's okay that you don't have all the information or know-how?

Type 6 (The Questionner)

• At the beginning of the day, write down what you anticipate happening in the day. At the end of the day, write down what actually happened.

• Focus on the ACTUAL, not HYPOTHETICALS.

Type 7 (The Enthusiast)

• When thinking about what to do over the weekend, write down 5-6 options of activities, put them in a jar, then draw one card.

• Consider what else remains in the jar as irrelevant until the following weekend.

• This one option is the adventure of the weekend!

Type 8 (The Challenger)

• When has your reliance on your power and strength backfired?

• When something goes wrong, how likely are you to assume that it must automatically be because someone else messed up?

• How often do you take ownership of your own impact on the outcome or on relationships?

Type 9 (The Peacemaker)

• Coin Flip - When making a decision, flip a coin. When the coin lands with its assigned outcomes, notice your immediate reaction. Did you feel relief or tension?

• Relief means go with the outcome of the coin toss.

• Tension/dread means go with the other option.

After you try this, leave a comment letting me know what you think! Since I only have firsthand familiarity with the ways of Type 4, I would love any feedback from those of other types!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Let Your Body Show You The Way

If you told me a decade that I would EVER become a yoga studio member, I woulda thought you were high...

The few times I did yoga before, my reaction was:

• WHY IS THIS SO SLOW??

• WHY IS THIS SO BORING??

• There's no freakin' way I can do that.

• What if I fall?

• What if I fart?

• What if everyone looks at me funny?

• OMG...why am I here again?

• *insert more grumbling* 

Don't quote me on this, but it's my observation that Enneagram 4s are typically very disconnected from their physical bodies (and overly connected to their heart first and then their head). The body is an afterthought, except as a target of self-criticism, judgment, and shame.

I have no freakin clue what possessed me to not just sign up for a 3-week trial at the yoga studio, but also to sign up for a membership (and actually stick with it even to this day!!).

Whatever the reason, here are all the things I've learned from being more connected with my body center of intelligence.

See which ones stand out to you, especially if:

• You live disconnected from or unaware of your body

• You tend to live as if the world is on your shoulders

• You believe that you are what you DO

• You’re a control-junkie

• You manage how you’re seen by others

• You have a hard time being still or resting

The only thing I bring into the studio with me is my mat and my body.

I leave everything outside the door -- my phone, my schedule, my email, my responsibilities, my worries.

These things continue to exist, but during the next 1-1.5 hours, it's as if they are irrelevant.

The world continues to spin even when I'm not doing anything.

Life continues, even when I don't do anything else.

The world does not fall apart just because I stopped working.

No one is dying because I am not thinking about them or not doing anything for them.

Other people continue to live & exist as if I am not the center of the universe. (Ha!!)

When I'm lying on the floor, I am literally doing NOTHING. The FLOOR is doing all the work in lifting me up.

I don't have to be the only one giving, working, serving, etc. to others; I CAN be a passive recipient of someone (something) else doing good work.

I too deserve to receive good things; I don't need to EARN goodness.

I am not more worthy when I'm useful, and I am not less worthy when I'm not.

I can just rest -- nothing bad is going to happen in this exact moment.

‘Come with the body you have...’

What I have in this moment is enough. Some days I come with more energy, some days with less. Neither is inherently better or worse -- it is what it is. I show up however I am...and that's enough.

There is no basis of comparison with others bc we all have our own bodies (& individualities). All are welcome as we are, however we are.

My body can do so many more things than I ever gave it credit for.

I've learned to suspend judgment on my own body and let it demonstrate what it actually can or can't do as a neutral piece of info. It is what it is!

If I'm surprised by just how much my body is actually capable of doing, maybe it can also do other surprising things!

Let me see what actually happens, rather than assuming a certain outcome and not bothering to even try.

I don't need to be in control or in the lead. I don't have to always know what's coming next or where it's going.

I have no clue where the yoga instructor is going to take us. Sometimes even they don't know! And that's totally okay.

All I need to do is to follow their lead and to focus on just the immediate next step.

I can turn off my brain and heart, and just BE in my body.

Sometimes, it's easier to do new/riskier things when I CAN’T see.

My own ability to see/perceive things is overrated. Sometimes it actually gets in the way. 

I don't just have a heart (or head), but also a body that has its own wisdom as another center of intelligence. I CAN learn to listen to my gut.

Sometimes it's literally easier to hold my balance when my glasses are off or my eyes are closed and I let my body lead with intuition/instinct.

Sometimes, no one is paying attention to me...and that's FREEING.

I don't have to be self-conscious, worried that other people are looking at and judging me.

Sometimes (a lot of times), they're in their own world, focusing on all kinds of things other than me.

I don't have to be or look a certain way. I can just mind my own body and business and carry on, and others can do the same.

If someone looks towards me and judges me during freakin YOGA, that's THEIR issue (plus, they're probably going to literally fall over).

Other people's thoughts and opinions of me are none of my business.

Anything stand out to you?

Maybe that reaction is your body's signal that this is an important part of your own personal work.

How can you incorporate body work into your path of growing BEYOND your Enneagram type?

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Tagged: emotions, numb, self care

Quarterly Check-in!

With a notebook handy, take 10 minutes connecting with yourself (ESPECIALLY your body if you tend to be stuck in your heart or head).

Ask yourself these questions (and write them down with a timestamp!):

• What's my body highlighting about how I'm doing now?
  - What am I feeling?
  - What am I needing?
  - How can I take steps to meet those needs?
   

• What are some good things that happened since the beginning of the year?
  - What are some hard things?
   

• In the next three months, where would I like to be in one of these areas?
  - physical
  - emotional
  - mental/intellectual
  - relational
  - environmental
  - financial
  - professional
  - personal/spiritual/existential

If you're needing some extra questions or examples to guide you in this self-check-in, here's a blog I myself revisit every quarter. 

Of the eight above, the one that stands out to me personally at this time is relational. Time to reach out to my own Enneagram coach! 

Share in the comments - What is one area that's standing out to you today! What is one step you will take this week to nurture that area?

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Investing in Myself

"True self-care is not salt baths and chocolate cake, it is making the choice to build a life you don't need to regularly escape from." [Brianna Wiest]

It is a regular rhythm of mine to sign up for 2-3 courses throughout the year for personal and/or professional development. 

In 2022, I did:

• Inner Work Retreat B - Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy

• Space Holder/Side Hustle - Marissa Lawton

• Million Dollar Year - Dow Janes

Each of these kinds of courses range from $2,000-6,000, but after taking them, this feels like chump change. 

As a firstborn daughter of an immigrant family with zero generational wealth, I've learned how to take care of my own needs myself (if at all). I've learned a lot of survival mindsets and strategies along the way, including,

• "If I don't do it, no one will - I can't rely on others."

• "I need to be on top of this, because otherwise one surprise is going to make it all crumple."

You'd be surprised as to just how this paradigm showed up in all aspects of my life - physical, emotional, psychological, relational, financial, etc.

I'm taking these courses not just because I want a certain concrete outcome, but mainly as an act of declaring that I am worth healing and nurturing, too.

I used to see the prices on these courses and think, "that's too expensive," "X is going to judge or be mad at me," or "I don't think I'm worth this much."

After many years of taking out the head trash, I am now comfortably in a place personally to build these into my annual budget. I don't have a ton of cash to just drop for random things, but I've learned to be really intentional with my time, energy, and money to make it count.

(Actually, being more anchored internally has helped me make better money/business decisions so that I DO now have cash dedicated for this without sacrificing other important things. Inner remodeling leads to external reconstruction. THIS is why I'm so obsessed with the idea of a FLOW state: minimal input, maximum impact.)

I'm not here to tell you you should "just TREAT YOSELF" by buying this and that, taking luxurious vacations that put you in further debt and stress you out the remaining 50 weeks of the year.

I am encouraging you to consider whether your small daily decisions are leading you to a vicious cycle of stress and reactivity or virtuous cycle of healing, freedom, and joy.

A one degree shift leads to MILES of change over a long period of time. Take 15 minutes sometime this week to consider:

• Are my daily decisions REACTIVE or PROACTIVE?

• What is one thing I can do this week to shift my life trajectory towards the better?

If you want some help with this, here are some resources:

• Atomic Habits (book)

• Enneagram Guide to Waking Up (book)

• Million Dollar Year (shoot me an email if you want a $100 code!)

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Which Ax Are You?

Two Lumberjacks

Have you heard of the story of the two lumberjacks?

There once were two lumberjacks who decided to have a little competition to see who could cut the most wood in a day. They rolled up their sleeves and started hacking away at the trees.

Dude A kept going strong, chopping and chopping, all the way til sunset.

Dude B started strong, but every once in a while walked away, disappearing for 15 minutes at a time after every hour.

Dude A thought, "Bro, your loss!" and kept swinging his ax.

Dude B did this throughout the day, disappearing for a total of 3 hours.

At sunset, they piled their wood blocks to settle the match.

(By this point in your life, y'all you would have heard enough stories to know that Dude B won.)

"What the hell!" stated Dude A. "You must have cheated! How is this possible that you cut more than me? You weren't even around for a fourth of the time!"

"Cheated? No. All we decided on was who would cut down more wood. I used the same ax as you have, bro." 

"Then how did this happen?"

"I took a break. The breeze was nice today!"

"???"

"Yeah, it was such a gorgeous day, that I wanted to just chill and take in the view. I let my body rest, stretched, and sharpened my ax." Dude B pulled out a polished stone from his pocket.

Sharpen Your Knife

Moral of the story? Resting is NOT slacking off. It's refusing to work harder than you need to - taking the simpler, easier, more enjoyable route. It's rebelling against society's pressure to believe, "I am what I DO." 

Resting is NOT a sign of laziness. It's also not a sign of incompetency or worthlessness. Rather, it's the opposite.

Knowledge says, "If I keep working the whole time without stopping, I'll get more done."

Wisdom says, "If I'm in my peak condition, my element, everything would just FLOW. I'll get more done, even with less work."

Even in your kitchen, if you use a dull knife, you are more likely to: 

1. Exert far more effort than using a sharpened knife

2. Have sloppier results

3. Hurt yourself 

If you've been frustrated with yourself because you're struggling with procrastination, perfectionism, overwhelm, etc., I get it. My Enneagram self-preservation 4 autopilot prompts me to keep pushing the daily grind until I wear myself out and shut down.

I've learned the hard way that growth, progress, and productivity isn't linear. More time, more money, more effort does NOT always win out.

...not that growth, progress, or productivity is the point. 

Like Dude B, you can take a break, catch a breath, and enjoy the scenery. That he was also productive was BONUS, but not the point.

Dude B was a winner, and not because he chopped more wood. He was a winner because he had a great time. He ENJOYED life.

What's the state of your knife or ax?

• Are you in a FLOW state, where things feel like you're cutting butter?

• Or a FRUSTRATED state, where everything feels so damn difficult and annoying?

If it's been a while since you've taken a breather, now's your chance. It doesn't even have to be long or complicated.

Put the ax down.

Rest your feet.

Stretch your arms.

Take in the view.

Sharpen your ax - let your mind, body, and heart be focused.

Want some ideas to help you hone your senses? Here are some options:

• The Five S's of Self-Care

• Create Your Safe Haven

• 3 Ways to Calm your Nervous System as a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)

• Build Self-esteem with a Fuck-it List

---

Do your BIG Feelings always TAKE OVER, ruining important moments or derailing your goals?

Grab this free guide that helps you handle feelings like a pro when they show up at the "wrong place" or "wrong time"!

I want my First Aid Kit!

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---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

3 Ways to Calm Your Nervous System as a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)

I was a guest on the Highly Sensitive Podcast with Lauren LaSalle.

I shared about how I learned I was a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) and gave three tips about how to calm your nervous system as an HSP.

(Scroll down for the transcript.)

My HSP Story

Lauren: What was your experience like discovering that you were highly sensitive? 

Joanne: I heard about it a couple years back during my pre-license years in therapy.  

I think just the lights went on and everything kind of clicked and made sense in terms of just how readily aggravated I get over sensory experiences, especially in my environment.

I used to label myself as being very asocial and withdrawn and things like that. 

I used to live with my in-laws for a good number of years. Being in a household full of vivacious people with all these sounds, I found myself coming home from work, going straight into my bedroom, turning off all the lights, putting my earplugs in, and going into bed.

Or in other times, we would have a big family gathering where they would hangout until past midnight. I would usually be the first to duck out because my eyes were glazing over from all of the activity and energy and I wouldn’t really be listening anymore.

I found out later that my in-laws wondered whether I was okay or thought that I didn’t like them.

Once I learned that I was HSP, how my body felt and what I did all made sense.

I explained to my in-laws that my body needed to decompress from all that happened during the day, and that it wasn’t personal. Because a lot of them were also HSPs, they understood. Now they know how to interpret my reactions.

To smooth things over, nowadays I just tell people, “Hey, I need to go decompress. I’ll be back in 20 minutes” and help my body and brain recharge. It’s a neutral, regular, and routine thing I do these days.

Lauren: Wow. I can't even imagine living with, I mean, even my own parents again, let alone my in-laws. That sounds really tough as an HSP.

Joanne: Fortunately, my in-laws are really great. They're emotionally fluent enough where I can share how I'm feeling and they're okay. 

It's more the sensory experiences of just there being a lot of chatter I hear through the walls and pots and pans clanging and things like that.

I think having agency over my own immediate space has been super helpful. Having my own office space was actually a huge plus for my own personal emotional and mental health, because I get to control the space however I want to and add all kinds of very soothing features to it in ways that I wouldn't have been able to at home.

What is Trauma?

Lauren: Not only are you highly sensitive, but you are also a therapist who works with highly sensitive people. What are some examples of how normal events can be traumatic for HSPs and kind of what can cause this to happen? 

Joanne: I like thinking about things through the lens of our nervous system in terms of how overwhelmed it gets. 

Often when people think about reactivity, they think about the actions people do in response to being stressed. There's less of a focus about how a person gets stressed to begin with.

 I would say there is a general window by which we are supposed to be stimulated throughout the day, like the sun rises or the coffee machine works, et cetera. Generally we're supposed to take those stimuli and use them to kind of wake up and engage the day. 

It's just that for HSPs that window is a lot smaller where we can get readily flooded all too easily and non HSPs they're like, I don't even notice a difference. 

When that overstimulation happens for an extended period of time it really wears away at the body, at the nervous system with cortisol (the stress hormones) constantly coursing through our veins. Cortisol has been shown to actually erode some aspects of our bodily function, it actually impacts some organs. 

It's this deadly cycle where we get overstimulated more readily, our bodies are under a lot of strain, we make reactive decisions that often make hard things worse, and then there's more strain and then it just keeps spiraling through. 

Generally I define trauma more openly than other therapists might. I don't just consider those big dramatic events, like a car crash or assault or things like that as trauma. I define trauma as any event, big or small, that gives people a very concentrated set of feeling out of control, feeling like they're in danger, or feeling embarrassed. 

That last piece would I think give a lot of people more empathy towards themselves. 

If a person when they're growing up in their elementary school classroom gets called on by a teacher to answer a question on the board, some kids might be like, oh, this is super exciting I can finally show off what I can do, and they answer the question on the board, that's taken as a very positive experience. But for a lot of people, especially HSPs, who are called on the spot, they weren't expecting it.  

Getting called on itself is very stressful on top of getting all this attention from everyone in the classroom, and then they might actually turn beat red. Therefore also losing control over their own bodily experiences and would be super embarrassed. They will be socially isolated, or at least internally, that's how they would interpret it. 

That event, which normally will be considered a very normal, day-to-day experience, is a traumatic event.  Later down the line, the person might have a lot of anxiety when it comes to giving presentations at work.

These are the actual kinds of situations that I help my therapy clients with in the present day. 

Lauren: I love that example because as you were talking about it, I started to feel anxious. Because I was one of those people where if the teacher called on me,  even if I knew the answer, it was a total blank. Like, I have no idea what's going on. I feel all hot and like everybody's looking at me and like I just kind of want to disappear. So I can totally relate to that, and I'm sure a lot of people will be able to as well. 

Joanne: Being sensitive not just towards being put on the spot, but also other people's energies and emotions, and also sensitivity towards one’s own bodily functions.t's kind of like a triple, quadruple dose of stimulation. 

It will definitely lead people to shut down and afterwards having shut down then there's a lot of the shame talk. Like, oh, why couldn't I be like Tommy? Or why did I do this? Like, I'm so dumb, et cetera. 

And that's adding several extra layers.

Lauren: I like how you define trauma too, because I think I've done that as well with my clients. I think a lot of people just think, oh, trauma is these big events that happen, but it really can be seemingly smaller events. Just because it doesn't affect one person negatively doesn't mean that it's not going to really, really affect somebody else and have a lasting impact on them. I really like that definition. 

Joanne: What I also like about that definition is that we can also flip it upside down to talk about what kinds of experiences help an HSP heal, or general person, but HSPs all the more.

If trauma is any experience, big or small, that leads a person to feel super out of control, super in danger or embarrassed, then healing would be any experience, big or small, that helps a person feel like they're in self-control, that they're super safe and secure and feeling seen, known and validated.

Finding ways to give ourselves more of those experiences on purpose, integrating that into our day-to-day lives is super important, because in the same way that we would be bothered more readily by different things that come up, we could also be readily soothed then for non HSPs.

It goes both ways. That's the nice thing about it. 

Responsiveness and Attunement

Lauren: I think that's so interesting that research has found that. It's just a really strange thing. I wouldn't have thought that that would be the case. I guess it's kind of sad in a way, but it's kind of nice also that even though we can be negatively affected by things more than the average person, we can actually be more affected by positive things, too.

Joanne: It eventually kind of breaks even, you know?

It's just that neutral stimulation. Less so having a moral charge of good and bad towards it. 

I think for that reason, those who are highly sensitive or are in relationships with HSPs need to be particularly attentive to noticing things in our environment like, five senses. 

Like bringing in more greenery, for example. 

Even those small things can have their own compound interest, if you will. It just keeps snowballing so that even when a person comes home, if their environment is very soothing, then they can actually recharge a lot more quickly than for someone who's not particularly paying attention and they're still getting aggravated along the way.

I would say that the HSP trait prompts one to need more responsiveness and attunement and more intentionality to their daily experiences. 

Lauren: I agree. And I've started to try, I mean, now I have a six month old at home so that's just another added layer on top of everything. As a new mom you hear, you don't have to keep up with the dishes and all of this, it's okay because you're busy, which I totally agree with. But on the flip side, if I don't, it stresses me out. If there's stuff all over the place, I lose my mind. So I know that for my own mental health, I also have to be as much on top of dishes, laundry, and cleaning up clutter as I can be. Otherwise it's going to go rapidly downhill.

Joanne: It's not about being particular or about having high standards or whatnot. The alternative is I'm just going to be irritable all the time. 

We give our nervous systems a chance to breathe more easily.

Using Brainspotting to Decompress

Lauren: So what are some other things that we can do to help our nervous systems other than being really intentional about our surroundings? 

Joanne: There are two approaches that I use most of the time in therapy. One is the Enneagram Personality framework. The other is called brainspotting, which is a derivative of EMDR, another trauma therapy technique. 

Brainspotting is actually what we do naturally, just not on purpose. 

If you've ever seen a veteran who is back in civilian life and they're kind of sitting on a bench and they're staring off into space. That's an example of brainspotting. 

The person doesn't quite know that they're internally processing, but their lizard brain is definitely trying to metabolize some stressful things. Obviously, for veterans, they've gone through a lot. 

HSPs tend to do that, staring off into space a lot more often. It's just that the idea of staring off into space is not socially acceptable. It's as if someone is not engaged or disinterested or whatever. 

Often when someone is sitting, staring off into space, the people around them are like, hey, are you okay?

But in actuality, the person's brain is saying, no, I just need to sit and do nothing and decompress. 

What I recommend for clients who come in, they find out that they're HSP or they've known for some time, but they're wanting to know how can I de-stress as soon as possible. I would say give yourself permission to sit and zone out for at least five minutes uninterrupted. 

The emphasis is on permission. 

Often when we have those experiences, when we're checked out, there's a lot of judgment and shame around it. When our body's actually trying to recover, when we bring in that judgment, then that actually sets up a whole bunch of triggers that ends up adding more stress than even before we start zoning out.

If a person can give themselves at least three to five minutes of zone out time throughout the day.  Great! 

If a person does it five minutes every hour, the five minutes will help decompress whatever happened within that 55 minutes prior, and then again, and again, and again. Really taking advantage of breaks. 

Let's say a person's work environment is not conducive to that kind of stuff. Where it's an open office and everyone's talking all the time. Excuse yourself to go to the restroom and then just sit there for a couple extra minutes so that you can have uninterrupted time where you can just allow your body to metabolize whatever comes up.

Brainspotting traditionally is using specifically one's eye position and zoning out while looking at that particular spot. It's just that a lot of people might do so accidentally where they're zooming in on a negative experience and then end up ruminating. 

My encouragement for people is that instead of focusing on what's bothering them to scan their body. Look for the most neutral or the most pleasant or grounding spot. 

Then while they're focusing on that spot notice where their eyes naturally gravitate towards and then stare there… for not too long because this is originally a therapy approach, so it really should be done with a therapist. Especially when processing difficult things. But because our bodies reflexively do it anyway, it will be good for people to try that on purpose.

An idea with brainspotting is where you look affects how you feel. So it's kind of hacking that towards HSPs. 

Lauren: That's so cool! I'm guessing doing this might help with falling asleep at night. I know a lot of us, if we have trouble falling asleep, it's because our brain won't shut off. I'm guessing if you give yourself breaks during the day to process things instead of leaving it all to when you're trying to fall asleep, then it will help with the time it takes to fall asleep. 

Joanne: Focusing on a very soothed or relaxed part of your body, noticing where your eye naturally drifts to and staring off in that place and just noticing whatever comes up. 

We don't have to analyze or anything. It's better that we don't analyze. 

Another approach is to focus on what you would like to feel. Thinking of either a time in your life, a memory, or if you don't have a particular memory, make up a scenario. 

For some people it might be laying in a hammock with a cocktail in your hand in front of the beach. Focusing on that until you experience the body sensations and then notice where your eye looks and then stare there. 

You can use either of those approaches. No fancy equipment necessary. You could actually do this while you're laying in bed in the dark. It's kind of a nice, handy way to do so.

Lauren: I'm gonna try that. I've heard of brainspotting through working, but I've never, gone further than just hearing about what it is. So that's really interesting to learn about that. I'm glad you brought that. 

Joanne: We don't have one brain, we have three, and they're very much interconnected.

So if someone, having gone through a bad situation, and they have negative emotions and their body shows it. Facial expressions or the posture or whatnot. The reverse is also true as well. 

When people actually simulate a posture that's associated with either positive or relaxed experiences, maybe even power postures, that's something that has been gaining more popularity nowadays, that can also affect how we feel on the inside.

It's just that the highly sensitive person trait often is associated with social experiences of making oneself small or meek or gentle or quiet, caring, et cetera. 

I would actually even encourage HSPs to practice living as if they're not HSPs, at least in their bodies. That can actually create a different feedback loop.

Lauren: I like that. 

Joanne: I might encourage a non HSPs to actually practice being like HSPs. So it goes both ways 

Lauren: I'm so glad you brought all of this to the podcast because I hadn't talked about some of these things before. Your expertise is much appreciated. 

Joanne: It's a great space. I'm really thankful that you have this avenue for people to really learn more about themselves and take good care.

Top Two, Bottom Two

Lauren: Thank you. So is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to make sure you brought up? 

Joanne: In terms of the five senses, one thing I talk about with people is in noticing which of the five senses are your top two? Like you notice it all too readily. They either bother you or they please you very easily. 

Then what are your bottom two senses? 

For me, I'm super easily affected by sight and touch. My bottom two senses are taste and smell. 

It actually has been a very healing journey for me personally. I used to dissociate a lot. In actually tapping into those bottom two senses and trying to reconnect with my physical body.

I happen to do so by making cocktails. That's been a fun experience for me because I'm really focusing in on what usually takes more effort. That's helped me to connect with a present versus drifting away into wherever I tend to go in my mind and my feelings. 

Lauren: I like that.

So how can people connect with you?

Joanne: I have my website, olivemecounseling.com. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram. I do also have a side business called Intelligent Emotions and that is an online course where I help people find out how to navigate with their big feelings.

Often if we leave our big feelings as they are, they tend to spiral into a vortex. It's a self paced course where people can find out that emotions are actually very logical and they actually have a system of their own. We're just not ever taught about it. Those two things:

OliveMe Counseling or Intelligent Emotions, that's the name of the course. 

Lauren: Thank you so much for being here. I think a lot of people will benefit from what you shared with us.

---

Do your BIG Feelings always TAKE OVER, ruining important moments or derailing your goals?

Grab this free guide that helps you handle feelings like a pro when they show up at the "wrong place" or "wrong time"!

I want my First Aid Kit!

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---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Designing a Healing Space: How HSPs Can Create a Safe Haven at Home

Hanging on the wall of my best friend’s office is this sign that reads:

Sanctuary:

your safe and peaceful haven.
a comforting place of refuge and rest in a noisy, chaotic world.

Ever since I learned that I’m a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP), I realized just how much my external environment impacts my inner world, and vice versa.

Home for this HSP

Having learned this, I started recalibrating how my physical space is both at home and at work.

Here’s what I did for myself:

• I got plants, which taught me valuable lessons

• I gave myself permission to toss out itchy clothes

• I replaced all the lighting in my home with soft, warm light

• I bought a TON of plushy blankets and cushions

• I got fuzzy slippers and warm layers

• I got rid of anything looks visually jarring (busy patterns, annoying colors, clutter)

• I often wear earplugs or noise cancelling earphones when unwinding or focusing on a task

Moreover, I chose a home specifically considering what impact it might have on my HSP body. Even if it cost more, I gave more weight to things like natural lighting, tons of greenery, access to water, and lots of quiet.

(Imagine how many therapy sessions I saved myself because my body regularly gets to rest and relax! All in all, a net GAIN.)

Within my home, here is a nook I created for myself, my own sanctuary.

Inside matches Outside

One morning, I bust out my watercolors and joined in the Draw Your Feelings workshop that my friend Rukmini (@rockinruksi) offers. The prompt for that morning was: “Mapping Your Heart”.

This is what came out during that time.

In the past several years, I’ve done a lot of personal work in considering myself as being JUST AS WORTHY as others - no more, no less (think equanimity: “equal life” or “equal soul”).

A lot of this inner work was possible because I also recalibrated my external environment.

Your Safe Haven

I define TRAUMA to be any experience that stirs up strong feelings of being unsafe, ashamed, or out of control.

In turn, I define HEALING to be any experience that provides the opposite - that gives you the sense of being safe, worthy, or in self-control.

• When it comes to your physical environment (home and work), what do you notice?

• What is its impact on your mind? your emotions? your nervous system?

Not everyone has the opportunity and freedom to do a complete overhaul of their personal space, but there is still a lot of adjustments that might be feasible.

Specifically consider the five senses: sight, smell, sound, taste, and touch:

1. How can you reduce, dampen, or eliminate some things that BOTHER you?

2. How can you bring more of what REJUVENATES you?

Take one small action to help your body soothe a bit more this week.

---

Do your BIG Feelings always TAKE OVER, ruining important moments or derailing your goals?

Grab this free guide that helps you handle feelings like a pro when they show up at the "wrong place" or "wrong time"!

I want my First Aid Kit!

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Thank you!

Check your inbox for your copy of The BIG Feeler First Aid Kit!

---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How to Set Boundaries over the Holidays

"I KNOW I need to set boundaries, but I CAN'T."

This is what I hear often when I'm working with people who learned how to people please, placate, and repress their own feelings/needs to survive their significant relationships. All of these are examples of "FAWN" responses (in addition to FIGHT, FLIGHT, and FREEZE) to (even anticipated) scary or risky situations.

Why the resistance to setting boundaries? Here are some reasons:

• I don't know how.

• I feel guilty/bad. (BTW - "bad" is not a feeling, but you get the idea)

• I don't want to because it's too scary.

• I don't want to because I don't think I'm worth it.

• I don't want to make them mad.

The majority of the people I work with have some strained relationship with family members. Unlike friends, whom you can choose or leave at will, family is what you're born into without any say.

As the holiday season rolls around (and also around family holidays like Mother's Day or Father's Day), old wounds are poked, stirring up feelings of anxiety, guilt, overwhelm, shame, irritation, resentment, etc.

Even relatively healthy relationships with family might stir up stress as people navigate spoken or unspoken expectations, travel plans, financial strain, and limited time.

Questions to prepare for the holidays

If you're feeling DREAD around seeing some people over the holidays, consider up front:

How can you keep from overextending yourself?

What are your realistic limits in terms of mental, emotional, physical, or financial energy? How can you build more down time into your schedule?

During the harder times of the year, plan to do 70% of what you usually do so that you have a greater buffer. Operating at the full 100% makes it so that any extra pain starts depleting the resources you need to just get by a “normal” week.

When things are harder, make it EASIER on yourself. DO NOT TRY TO TOUGH IT OUT - YOU’VE ALREADY DEALT WITH PLENTY OF SHIT.

Who are some people who drain energy?

What's the maximum amount of time you can hang around someone without becoming reactive?

PRO TIP: Schedule 1-2 hours with that person and schedule something ELSE at the end of that time period.

Give the person a head's up that you have something afterwards ("I have other things I gotta do while I'm here" or "I have other people I need to also meet up with"), and when time's up, say "I gotta go!"

How can YOU initiate an activity?

You might have some people you’re not super excited to see but feel like you HAVE to (like a nagging relative who keeps saying, “Why don’t we ever see you?”).

They keep reaching out to you, and you feel like you have to either maneuver your way out of that invite (and feel guilty) or endure that experience (and feel trapped, anxious, and ashamed).

PRO TIP: Sometimes, if YOU initiate an activity you feel better or safer about (bowling, watching a sports game, or shopping), then THEY would be in a position to say yes or no. If they say yes, it’s at least on YOUR terms and timeline. If no, oh well! At least you tried.

Who are people you need to steer clear of completely?

Or hang out only in public spaces? Or only when other people are around?

Don’t force yourself to hang out with them. You don’t owe anyone your time, energy, or sanity.

Let them throw a tantrum or get upset. You’re not the asshole for not making their drama your drama.

Who keeps asking inappropriate or uncomfortable questions?

Some people are freakin nosy, digging for deets about whether/who you're dating, whether/when you'll have kids, how much money you're making, etc.

PRO TIP: Pick some neutral/shallow topics you can purposefully redirect the conversation to. Not everyone deserves to have access to you. YOU get to choose - not letting others into your life does NOT make you a bad person.

Who are some safe people who can care for you?

Who can you ask keep you company during those scarier situations?

Who can help you decompress afterwards?

Here’s a blog that describes who’s a safe vs. unsafe person.

PRO TIP: Ask one of them ahead of time to call you with some urgent matter partway through if you need an out of an unpleasant meetup.

If you’re feeling guilty

Obviously, some of these things I'm encouraging you isn’t 100% ethical. Save your ethics and morality for situations where you actually have SAFETY and FREEDOM - not when you're pressured, bullied, or guilt-tripped.

When you're dealing with unhealthy, manipulative people, you do NOT need to expose yourself to being exploited or hurt again. YOU ARE NOT A BAD PERSON FOR KEEPING YOURSELF SAFE.

If you’re playing a game where the other parties keep cheating or changing the rules, there’s no fair play. No need to follow the rules; you may stop playing the game altogether.

To butcher a Henry Cloud quote: If you set boundaries and the other person gets mad, it's NOT a sign that you're doing something WRONG. In fact, it's CONFIRMATION that boundaries were necessary in the first place, because this person has been benefitting at your expense this whole time. 

MAD: The Emotion of Boundaries

ANGER is a good self-protecting and self-honoring emotion right about now. Not all anger is bad, and not all love is good. The healthy versions of both create relationships where there's enough room for BOTH parties, not just one at the other's expense.

If you're wanting to know more about the HOW-TOs of boundary setting and assertiveness, check out the following:

• A blog I wrote about Radical Candor (from Kim Scott's book).

• An interview I had about toxic relationships

• A blog about assertiveness

• A blog about resentment

• A blog about safe people (from Henry Cloud and John Townsend's book)

• These Instagram posts about anger (bio page > “MAD” highlights)

I’m really rooting for you. Hang in there.

After this season is over, I encourage you to use the non-holiday months next year to build towards a year-end time that suits and honors you. Perhaps it might be time for you to find yourself a therapist.

---

Do your BIG Feelings always TAKE OVER, ruining important moments or derailing your goals?

Grab this free guide that helps you handle feelings like a pro when they show up at the "wrong place" or "wrong time"!

I want my First Aid Kit!

Loading...

Thank you!

Check your inbox for your copy of The BIG Feeler First Aid Kit!

---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

3 Lessons Plants Taught Me

I speak as if I’m a natural green thumb. I’m not. I’m genuinely surprised that my plants are still alive. I believe they lived this long DESPITE me, not BECAUSE of me. 

At first, I got plants for my office as a way of bringing in more greenery into my space. (As a Highly Sensitive Person, I am easily impacted by my physical environment.) 

Never did I imagine that tending to plants would a fantastic way of taming my autopilot tendencies to:

• Be perfectionistic

• Be anxious about what’s not going well or might go wrong

• Overwork

• Have difficulty sitting still

• Live disconnected from the present

• Seek intensity and novelty

Here are three things plants taught me about how to do my life differently. 

Imperfect, but nonetheless worthy

No two plants are the same. No two leaves are the same. More often than not, you see asymmetry and imperfections of color, size, and shape. 

Go outside and look at the trees, bushes, and flowers - if you’re looking for it, you will find blemishes, broken branches, and ways it could be “better”. 

…So what? Plants are still beautiful and valuable as they are, and rarely do we think about how they’re so even though they’re imperfect. 

You probably didn’t even notice those plants’ disfigurations all that much until you were prompted to look for them. You go about your day having enjoyed them, as if it’s not a problem, because it really isn’t. 

Why do we place so much emphasis on ourselves and others as if perfection is what makes us worthy and acceptable?

See yourself as a plant. It is what it is, and it’s already beautiful. 

Here’s a mantra for you:

I am how I am, and I am already good.

Are your needs met?

I get the main point of the idiom, “Bloom where you’re planted.” You’re to take advantage of the opportunities that your present circumstances provide and learn to be grateful.

That’s definitely an important skill to have in life, but as with all adages, there are limitations. 

If you have an autopilot that makes things seem worse than they actually are, and if being critical and unhappy is your baseline, do practice blooming where you’re planted. 

But useful also is the skill of attuning to yourself and knowing what works best for YOU. What works for one plant doesn’t work for another unless they have similar needs. 

Some plants need direct lighting; others would shrivel if they’re in the same conditions. Some plants need frequent watering; others are susceptible to growing root rot (RIP my olive tree). 

We are all individual and unique. Sure, we have some universal needs like food and sleep we share in common, but even in those things we have differences is how much or in what way. 

Know your own distinct needs and take steps to meet them, rather than judging yourself for not “growing” or “performing” in the way someone else is. Both of you are neither inherently better or worse; y’all are who you are, you’re both worthy, and each of you have specific needs to flourish well. 

Know thyself. Know thy needs.

Do an audit of what are your specific needs in these arenas:

• Physical

• Emotional

• Relational

• Environmental

• Intellectual

• Professional

• Spiritual

• Financial

What steps will you take this week to get these needs met?

Blame the bug, not the plant

Sometimes a plant languishes or is stunted in its growth because of pests that extract its valuable nutrients. When that happens, we are ready to see the pest (not the plant) as a problem, remove the parasites, and give the plant some good TLC so it can recover.

The same ought to be done about ourselves in some of our relationships, because there ARE people in our lives who operate like parasites. 

In my therapy practice, I often work with people who are in one-sided relationships with parents, partners, friends, or coworkers who seek a “host” to exploit, meeting their own needs at the expense of my clients’. We explore the topics of emotional abuse, manipulation, power dynamics, resentment, dependency, and codependency. 

Sometimes this exploitation is deliberate - the “parasite” consciously takes advantage of the other person or is vindictive, cruel, or petty with utter disregard for the recipients’ wellbeing. As Henry Cloud describes in his book, “Necessary Endings,” these are the “Evil Persons” who we must limit their access to us ASAP.

Then there are those who are accidentally exploitative as a byproduct of some other pattern. For example, when a person doesn’t take responsibility for meeting their own needs or see themselves as helpless, they create a power vacuum for someone else to step in for them. 

(Imagine the kind of relationship between one housemate who doesn’t clean up after themselves and another who just can’t stand the mess. Or the imbalanced relationship between someone who cries at the thought of figuring out the internet and a family member whose heart string is pulled and calls the internet company for them.) 

Are you a “host”?

The party who steps in often has a soft spot for others who are struggling, even if the pain is of their own making. Those who have a higher likelihood of being a “host” include:

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• Those who are conscientious, responsible, empathic types

• Empaths, Highly Sensitive Persons

• Enneagram 1s, 2s, 4s, 9s, and some other subtypes (all for different reasons)

• Oldest siblings (especially women)

• Children of immigrants

• Those who are in caregiving roles or professions (teachers, therapists, nurses, etc.)

Those who live as if they’re hosts often:

• Have a hard time knowing what they want and need (and ignore them)

• Find it difficult to say “no”

• Is scared of conflict or asking for help

• Overly focus on what other people are needing

• Feel guilty about taking care of themselves

Eventually, because the “hosts” have their own valid yet unmet needs, usually these imbalanced relationships leave them feeling fatigued, depleted, and resentful. 

(In this case, resentment is very GOOD, as it signals the need for boundaries, reciprocity, and care.)

We ought not to judge the depleted host for being tired, but rather remove the exploitative agents. If you’re having a difficult time flourishing where you are, consider whether it might be because someone else is sapping your energy, time, resources, and money. 

Remove the parasites ASAP (don’t let them grow), clear your environment of toxicity, and nourish yourself with what you specifically need. 

(BTW - just to be clear, this is NOT about judging others for being LESS THAN, but rather holding them accountable for their own needs and actions. You providing them nourishment that they need to give to themselves is NOT helping them, but is ENABLING them in being dependent upon hosts. Win-lose relationships are LOSE-LOSE.)  

I highly recommend you grab a copy of Henry Cloud’s book, Necessary Endings, so you know how to tend to yourself well by pruning away things that sap your strength and eliminating harmful influences. 

How will you set boundaries with others this week? 

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

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© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Two Quick Tips to Be Assertive

The Value of Assertiveness in Relationships

Many of the people I work with (myself included) have trouble being assertive in relationships. We tend to focus our connections on empathy and meeting the needs of others, but that focus on the other OVER the self can really impact the relationship and yourself. Such a dynamic is what Kim Scott calls “Ruinous Empathy,” a dynamic that takes empathy so far that the relationship no longer has room for the self. Such relationships cultivate resentment and lead to easy burnout. (You can read more about Ruinous Empathy in my blog post on Radical Candor.) Practicing assertiveness is a tool for building BALANCED relationships where both YOU and OTHERS matter.

Tip #1: Use the Sentence: I am open to “____”; I am not open to “____.”

One way to be assertive is to use the sentence, "I am open to 'blank;' I am not open to 'blank.'" Sometimes when someone else makes a request or a demand of us, we might find ourselves feeling stuck between the options of:

• Saying YES, going along with their demand or request, OR

• Saying NO, where we're in the position of rejecting.

So, the template, "I am open to blank, I'm not open to blank," provides an alternative option. An example is if someone asks, "Hey, can we go to San Francisco and do X Y Z things." I might not be up to that because I tend to have low energy, so I may say, "Hey, I'm open to grabbing coffee for a couple of hours with you; I'm not open to spending the whole day in SF." That might be enough.

Instead of you being in a position of going with the other person's request exactly as it is or denying their request completely, you pitch a THIRD OPTION. Now there's room for negotiation here and that's totally okay. The idea is that you're not stuck in an all-or-nothing arrangement.

The converse can happen as well when you're making a request to someone else, and they're in a position of saying yes or no. If they say no, you can follow up with, "Well, what are you available to do?" You give them an opportunity to speak for themselves. That way, you don't just have two options. It opens up that conversation.

Tip #2: Don’t Over-Explain

The second way of being assertive is to NOT over-explain yourself. Now if you're like me and a lot of people that I work with, we tend to feel bad about putting forth our needs. We feel guilty or we're scared that the other person may say no or get mad, and when we finally muster up the courage to make a request, we provide this lengthy explanation as to why that request needs to happen or why it's a good idea.

It's totally understandable why people might feel the need to over-explain. The downside is the more you explain yourself, the more you actually dilute down the effect of your request. You water it down. So sometimes when you over-explain, the listener may have a harder time keeping track of what your initial request is. An example might be instead of saying "I'm not available on Friday,” you say something like "I'm not available on Friday because I need to go to the grocery store, because I need to gather all this food to prepare because my in-laws are coming tomorrow and they have high expectations.” The other person is like, well, that's way more much information than I needed.

The over-explanation might not be necessary and sometimes it's just generally good practice, especially if you have a hard time with boundaries, to hold back on sharing more than is actually concretely necessary for the question at hand. The main question is, "Are you available on Friday or not?" So instead of over-explaining yourself, stick to the point. Stick to the action item saying, "I am available on Friday," or "I'm not available on Friday," and notice how often you do over-explain and see what tends to happen in those conversations. More likely, the other person you're talking to may feel or sense that you are more defensive or you are more insecure because in effect you're kind of backtracking.

So, state the request very clearly or state the boundary very clearly. You don't owe anyone an explanation for anything, for any of your decisions. If you happen to be interacting with someone who tends to push boundaries, like they say, "Well, why?" Well, that might actually be a reflection of them being a less safe person than you thought they were, and that might be a signal for you to start dialing back for that very reason. If you're interacting with someone who demands to know the very reasons or justifications for your actions, that's kind of a sign that they don't really respect you all that much. So, to develop respect, instead of giving more of yourself, you give them less access to you; that's generally a good practice.

Being Assertive in Your Connections

So in summary, there are two quick ways of being assertive.

One is for you to say the sentence, "I am open to blank; I am not open to blank."

The second one is to watch when you over-explain yourself and practice dialing back.

You don't have to do a full 180; just practice dialing back 5% and then see what happens. Sometimes people might be okay with a simple yes or no. We don't know. So go test out these assertiveness tips and see how they might improve your relationships.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

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---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Concentric Circles of Connection

Shifting Relationships

Every time we go through any major life event (positive or negative), it's good to check in with the nature of our current connections.

Such shifting points include:

• Getting a new job

• Starting or ending a relationship

• Upgrading to the “next level” of relationships

• Moving to another city, state, country

• The pandemic

• Losing (or gaining) a job

Sometimes we find out through life experience that our connections maybe aren't as sustainable as we might think of them to be. With some people, we may not actually be as close to as we would like.

Instead of constantly putting yourself out there and then feeling disappointed, or hurt, or realizing that your relationships are super imbalanced, it's good to do a check-in every now and then.

Ask yourself, "Is my connection with someone able to sustain the level of intimacy as I would like?"

The Concentric Circles of Connection

There are many different kinds of friendships. It's not a matter of “Yes, I have friends” or “No, I don’t have friends,” but “What kind of friends do I have?”

Imagine that there are several levels or tiers of friendships.

(The number of levels may change over time, but here’s one way of distinguishing them.)

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• +: Positive experiences

• —: Negative experiences

Tier 1: BFFs (+++———)

At the innermost circle are those who are our Ride-or-Die people. These are the people who know ourselves the best, those with whom we can share our deepest darkest secrets with and they will show up.

The relationship is consistent day after day. They're going to be there for you, no matter what. They’ve explicitly made that commitment clear.

You've cultivated a lot of connection and trust and rapport, and they're also able to sustain the difficult emotions. So, it doesn't mean that you have an equal amount of positive and negative interactions with each other, but this is the depth of experiences that you share with them.

When the best and worst things happen, these are the people you call first.

Tier 2: Close Friends (++——)

These folks have demonstrated that they're trustworthy. They share in your personal hardships and also celebrate your wins. You can have great dinners and heart-to-heart talks.

You're still close to them and deeply enjoy their company, but they're not the first people you would call if something happens. (You’ll eventually catch them up when you do meet.)

Tier 3: Fun Friends (++—)

These are people with whom you have mutual interests and have fun. You might like going to concerts, play board games, or do wine tastings, but when something hard goes on in your life, they're nowhere to be found.

That doesn't mean that they're necessarily a bad friend, but they're just not in your inner circles. That’s okay.

It's important when we come across these kinds of connections that we release them from any expectations for us to rely on them, so that THEY don't feel trapped about what we're going through, and WE don't rely on people who are not readily available for us.

But we can still have a good time! Relationships don’t have to be all-or-nothing, eggs-in-one-basket, intensity-or-bust (Take heed, Enneagram Fours! Not all experiences we have in life are super serious and it's good to learn how to lighten up and to enjoy things.).

It’s good to have a wide range of relationships, even ones where surface-level convos are the norm and where activities serve as the core.

Tier 4: Neighbors (+—)

These people can be co-workers or literal neighbors—people you see pretty often. You know each other's names, how many kids or pets y’all have, generally what might be going on in each others’ lives, but you're not necessarily going to call them up to hang out all the time.

You might share, "Someone hit my car bumper last night, and I'm kind of feeling frustrated," or "Yeah, like my kid is about to do a major performance and super excited about it."

Sometimes, to avoid repercussions in your daily life, you may opt NOT to share things.

You might connect every once in a while, but mostly you see each other in passing, say hello, be polite, be gentle. Other than that, they're not necessarily involved in your lives.

Tier 5: Acquaintances (~)

These are people who are neutral and you don’t share much with at all, good or bad. You know of each other, from a distance. If you don’t hit it off, oh well. It’s not (necessarily) a problem.

Tier 6: Blacklisters (——)

These are people who have demonstrated over and over again that they are NOT trustworthy, and they hurt more than help. They often take way too taking up way too much space in the relationship. It’s all about them, and there’s little room for your own feelings or your experiences.

When you try to speak up for what you need, you get shot down or you get dismissed, minimized, gaslit, etc. As these people are toxic, it's generally good to have strong walls up and give them minimal information.

Sometimes these people are those who used to be your closest friends, and sometimes they're family members. It's really really hard and painful in those situations, but the cost for not putting up those boundaries is that you get more and more diminished.

Emotions like resentment, guilt, shame, anxiety are all evidence that someone who belongs in the outer tiers are too close to you. Sometimes they barge in, sometimes you give them an inch and they take a mile.

They may still be valuable as human beings, so they deserve a base level of human dignity (don't be mean to them), but don't give out your personal information (including what’s going on in your life) because they might use it against you.

These are people you interact with where afterwards you feel bad about yourself or your life. THESE ARE NOT YOUR PEOPLE; GTFO.

Is everyone in their rightful tiers?

To maintain health and longevity, do an audit of your current relationships. List 10 people you often see these days, and indicate what your general interaction is like with + and —.

• Tier 1 (BFFs): +++——— (can handle both strong positive and strong negative experiences):

• Tier 2 (Close Friends): ++—— (similar as BFF, but not first pick)

• Tier 3 (Fun Friends): ++— (mostly pleasant, but not as deep)

• Tier 4 (Neighbors): +— (neutral, frequent but surface level)

• Tier 5 (Acquaintances): ~ (neutral, little sharing)

• Tier 6 (Blacklist): ——— (consistently negative)

Plot these individuals onto the Concentric Circles chart (download here). What do you notice?

Some questions to think of:

1. Are there people who have more access to you than they deserve?
   If you keep experiencing more pain than good with someone (and they refuse to change), it might be time for you to bump them into outer tiers.
   This does not make them lesser of a person, but just relocates them to where the relationship can actually handle the level of intimacy. When people stay closer than they’re supposed to, that increases the risk that the relationship will implode or explode, resulting in that person being sent to the Blacklist.
   Find the right amount of intimacy that is sustainable.

2. Are there some people who have demonstrated trustworthiness that you can give more access to?
   Sometimes, those you never expected to be close to may become some of your closest people. Be open to trying out new levels of intimacy until you hit a limit - that might be the new equilibrium point for the next season of your life.

Changing Needs, Shifting Tiers

You may find that there are some people who kind of move back and forth between different tiers—that's totally okay!

Be open to having relationships of varying mobility. Remember, it’s not all-or-nothing.

As we change and grow in life, our needs and wants change. We need to shift our connections to match the new level of personal growth.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Nervous System Health: Stuck On & Stuck Off

Not 1 but 3 Brains

This might be new information, but we don’t have ONE brain, we actually have THREE BRAINS.

1. We have the thinking, executive brain that plans things makes executive decisions and implements them, and can think in the past or far ahead.

2. We have our feeling and emotional brain, which is very relational. It tunes into other people’s facial expresses and cues and responds accordingly. It’s also the part that holds our emotions and big events in our lives, both harsh and great.

3. Finally, we have the bottom part of the brain that’s reflexive, called “lizard brain” that regulates all regulated aspects of our being—the things we have no control over, like pupil dilation, heart rate, blood flow, etc.

Give all the things going on in the world, the country, in our local areas, within our relationships, I wouldn’t be surprised if our bodies are being bombarded with all kinds of stress that it doesn’t know how to decompress from. Our habits of thinking, feeling, and doing are on hyperdrive as our bodies are trying to cope and survive.

Healthy Nervous System

Smooth Flow

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

This is a visual of what happens within our nervous systems. We have what’s called a “Sympathetic Nervous System” (SNS) at the peak, which is the activity and energizing focus dedicated part of our nervous systems where we are alert in the day, we’re trying to get things done, and we’re active. We’re increasing in activity and arousal (stress).

Then we have another part of our nervous system called the Parasympathetic Nervous System (PNS), which is when our bodies are the opposite—more relaxed, grounded, slow, and deliberate. Imagine having a big Thanksgiving meal and feeling super groggy afterward because you’re in a food coma. That’s the parasympathetic kicking in.

Throughout a normal day, our nervous systems are supposed to be in this particular window (normal range) where there’s a smooth and easy flow between the Sympathetic Nervous System as we wake up in the morning, stay alert in the day, and then after 1 or 2 o’clock hits and you feel the crash coming where you need an extra cup of coffee. Then another burst of energy that slowly tapers off as we finish the work day, to return home, veg for a bit, then do something stimulating (watching TV, hanging out with friends) until it’s time to hit the sack.

On > Off > On > Off - a rhythm that repeats throughout the day in a smooth curve. That’s what’s supposed to help us stay present and connected, not in our reactive autopilots.

(Our Enneagram types reveal what our reactive patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing are.)

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Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

Nervous System Overload

Spikes between “Stuck On” and “Stuck Off”

We’re generally supposed to stay in the normal range. However, when we experience a very harsh situation, either a single, acute event or a chronic series of lower-grade events, it overloads our nervous system and we don’t know how to decompress or heal from that. That’s when we jump into the Un-Discharged Traumatic Stress System.

We can compare the sympathetic to parasympathetic flow of the normal range to how the event (or series of events) overload the system. There’s TOO MUCH STRESS going on and it’s not discharged, which means it’s stuck in our bodies and doesn’t know where to go.

View fullsize

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

Some of us may switch into what’s called “STUCK ON” where our nervous systems are on hyperdrive. The sympathetic nervous system—which is the alert and activity part—kicks in really hard, where the person is spinning in anxiety, they’re trying to be really active and get onto tasks. These tend to be the folks who push themselves really hard, have a hard time settling, spin into being hypervigilant, are very irritable, have digestive issues, etc.

Then there are some of us who go down into the “STUCK OFF” position in our nervous system. The systems shut down. People get really slow and sluggish, they have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning, they have a hard time focusing because it requires so much energy which they don’t feel like they have, there’s very low activity in the body, low blood pressure, etc.

Some of us might go to the “stuck on” where we go into hyperdrive too long, sometimes people stay in “stuck off” position too long where it’s hard to get ourselves to do anything, whereas some people oscillate between “stuck on” and “stuck off” while completely skipping over the normal range window.

Stuck ON/OFF and Reactive Autopilot

When our bodies are so overloaded, we can’t help but kick into our reactive modes. Our bodies are trying to cope, trying to survive, trying to get by, and early on in life, those habits were super useful. But when we’re adults, those patterns don’t work in the ways that they were intended anymore. Sometimes they generate problems, like being hyperfocused and hyperalert has been useful for some time, but sometimes a person might be really irritable in that place and then they get into a fight with their partner, and now there’s yet another thing they have to deal with. When you are within the normal range, you should recognize a sense of choices and options rather than default reactions.

View fullsize

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

The goal is to find ways to come back within the normal range. When someone is “stuck on,” the goal is to try to find ways to down-regulate. If you have a hard time relaxing, it’s about finding ways to simplify things, do things deliberately more slowly, find ways to switch breathing zones (deep, belly breathing instead of the top chest, rapid breathing).

Find out ways you can take care of yourself, especially through this very stressful time with the pandemic. Not only are we experiencing very acute stressors that are very intense and out of nowhere, but we are also experiencing low-grade chronic, drawn-out stressors as well.

If you find yourself resonating with these experiences, you’re NOT ALONE and you’re NOT BROKEN. There’s nothing wrong with you, but it does mean that you’re HUMAN and your limits are actually good. It’s telling you now’s the time to limit all that you’re carrying and focus back on YOURSELF. To help you focus on the self and discover strategies to return to the normal range, check out my blogging series on self-care.

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Messy feelings spilling out at the WRONG TIME, WRONG PLACE, WRONG WAY?

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”