Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) and Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) join Nikhil Sharma (AlignUs World) in a six part series to discuss the Enneagram.
In this six part series we give an introduction to each Enneagram Type, look at each of the Triads: Body, Heart, and Head, and discuss subtypes and instincts.
Watch the video below for Cracking the Code: An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part II) (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)
Cracking the Code: An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part I)
Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s
Head Types - 5s, 6s, 7s
Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s
Downloadables
Grab each of these guides separately!
Transcript
Continuing from “Cracking the Code: An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part 1)”…
Type Three
Nikhil: Let’s move on to Type Three.
Melinda: I like to call them “The Performers” because that's just how they do life. They want to be seen as successful, valuable. They want to be seen as sometimes even the best at what they do where they are. However, they do that in a way that's similar to Two, they shapeshift. Often, they'll take on what's valuable to the group around them and shapeshift into that and often become the most successful version of that in order to be admired. As opposed to Twos wanting to be loved, Threes want to be respected, admired, applauded. Loved is fine, but I think those other things are more paramount for Threes and they'll shapeshift in order to do it. But they don't know themselves. They lose touch with their own internals as well.
Joanne: I would say that if you overlay all the personality disorder descriptions, the diagnosis codes, you will see one or two or three personality disorders for every Type, except for Type Three. We're in a very Three-ish country. So, Three is just assumed to be the standard.
Melinda: It's all about success. Getting to the top, looking good, having other people think you're awesome.
Nikhil: Is that right? Have we found out that Type Three is the most common Enneagram Type in the US?
Melinda: No, I don’t think so. I think it's probably the most aspired to.
Joanne: I wouldn't say that there's more Threes in the population, but because their dynamics are just assumed to be the baseline. Threes, in addition to their deadly sin being self-deceit, have the hardest time recognizing themselves because the entire world basically applauds them for their ego patterns.
Melinda: They are so productive. They do things all the time. Even their rest is productive. Often, I run into Threes in my own practice because they've burned out. They’re like I’ve had a heart attack. My body's given out. I'm sick and my marriage is falling apart, my relationship, and I had no other choice but to go to therapy.
Joanne: They wear themselves out and they come in like, “Just tell me what the steps are. Let’s go!”
Melinda: And we’re like, “We’re going to have to get into your feelings.” And they're like, that's so unproductive.
Joanne: Inefficient.
Nikhil: That's interesting. Because they're a part of the Heart Type and I feel like that Type is a little bit vulnerable or they have a lot of emotions. They're emotional thinkers.
Melinda: I think what's interesting, and we'll talk about this more with the Heart Triad, but Threes underdo feeling. They underdo Heart. Fours overdo it. Twos tend to be in conflict or have a chaotic.
Joanne: In the Gut Types as well, that's the same case. Eights overdue anger, Nines under-do anger, and Ones are at odds with it. So, Nines in the Gut Triad are the ones that are like, huh, how are you in the Anger Triad?
Melinda: They're never angry.
Joanne: That would be Sixes for the Head Types.
Melinda: So, for Threes, exactly correct. They don't really have much to do or are in touch with their emotions.
Nikhil: Got it. Now, moving on to Type Four and we have our experts here in Joanne.
Type Four
Joanne: The resident Four.
One way of easily conceptualizing Fours is in opposition to Twos and Threes. In fact, Twos and Threes tend to seek connection at the expense of authenticity or connection with themselves. Fours go the opposite direction. They overly connect with themselves and lose connection with other people.
Sometimes the Fours are known as “The Romantics”, “The Artists”, “The Tragic”. That can happen but it kind of depends on the Four and the context that they're in. Whereas Nines try to find the common area and try to blend themselves in, Fours try to stand out. I think the term individualist is probably more useful and flexible in that they often live as if everyone else belongs with each other, but I stand out. I'm on the outside looking in. There's something different about me for better and for worse. Either I'm super special and awesome, or I'm the worst person on the planet or both.
Melinda: Sometimes they oscillate.
Joanne: It's still the sense of feeling disconnected, feeling disconnected from life, from other people and in their echo chamber they focus on their flaws. It's like there must be something essential in me that I'm missing and it's out there somewhere. What is it? I don't know, but it's probably something and it's probably out there somewhere. So, I got to go chase that instead of recognizing that we already have the essential thing in being present.
So, Fours end up being super emotionally expressive or emotionally motivated. They might not always show their feelings, but they tend to do according to how they feel. What they feel often tends to be negative emotions because they're living out of the sense of lack and out of the sense of not being enough.
So, they are very comfortable with negative feelings. Probably any movie or any TV drama has a lot of Fourishness. Because whatever doesn't involve drama is boring. Fours tend to live out their drama. They probably don't need TV drama.
Melinda: Probably not. Some of them might look down on TV dramas.
Joanne: Fours often have an easier time when things are actually going terribly. Like during Covid Fours were the calmest people.
Melinda: It was so crazy. I was freaking out and she's like, oh, well, things were already bad.
Joanne: Yeah, everyone's having an existential crisis, everyone’s freaking out and Fours were like, oh, you guys are now catching up.
Nikhil: I gotcha. So, kind of like the rocks of the situation, like in chaos you guys are the people to be able to depend upon and to help guide you through those tough situations that others may find very disruptive.
Joanne: I would say we're suffering junkies. It's like suffering and sadness is very delicious.
Melinda: Oh my gosh. And yet you mentioned anything like hope or joy. They're like, ahh!
Joanne: No, no, pass.
Nikhil: Mentioning about the lack and how people live, I feel like a lot of people live in that mentality where we are not good enough and we tend to dwell on the negative aspects of our being. It's almost like our brains are hardwired to try to figure out the one or two things that aren't going good in our life or that we feel we don't have and that's just a feeling. Again people, our feelings and our thoughts are not always true, but somehow, we believe that they are true because from a young age that's what we've been growing up to believe. I think it's something that a lot of us can resonate with and we feel like we need to gain validation externally for a lot of our feelings. But we realize once we sit down and do a little self-reflection that, hey, all that we need is right here, right inside of us. We don't need to be like others.
Joanne: You mentioned earlier that we probably resonate with a little bit of everything because these are universal human experiences. It's just that each Type identifies with one aspect of the human experience and makes it seem as if that's all of who they are. So, Fours identify themselves with their suffering. It's like their security blankie. We need to recognize that there's a lot more to us than just what we think we are. Whereas for everyone else, that’s not a Four, needs to get in touch with Four-ish experiences. That happens in like midlife crisis.
Melinda: I have a direct line to Four. So, it's been very helpful for me to get in touch with those things for sure.
Nikhil: That's a great explanation of Fours and the Heart Triads. Now, we're moving into my favorite Triad just because I'm a part of this Triad, which is the Head Triad. And that's Types Five, Six, and Seven. And this is the thinking Triad.
Head Triad
Type Five
Melinda: We'll start with Five. I'm married to a Five. Actually, Two and Five couples are really common. Fives are known to be “The Observers”. I live in Silicon Valley, a lot of mathematicians, software engineers, scientists, et cetera, end up being Fives, interestingly. It's a profession that has a lot to do with their brains. They rely on their thoughts and their heads in order to navigate life and remain in control. However, they have a very difficult time accessing their hearts and their bodies in order to input information. My hook with Fives is often you're not being as logical as you think you are because you deny two incredibly important ways of taking in information via your emotions and your body or your gut.
Fives are very top heavy and so head heavy. Out of fear of being overwhelmed, out of fear of being overtaken, they rely on their heads to get them through life, thinking, knowing things, and keeping a lock control on their energy. So, God forbid a Five doesn't know what they're going to do with their day because they're not going to be able to allocate their energy correctly so that they're not depleted, which is I think probably one of their biggest fears.
Anything you want to add?
Joanne: I like describing Fives as someone who's living in a fortress with an ivory tower. It's like heavily guarded walls with a drawbridge. On top of that, they're living in their ivory towers, looking down and observing everything else all the meanwhile feeling sad and lonely very deeply. Wanting to be connecting with others, but feeling very scared of possibly being overtaken if they were to let them in. But if others also move away, they're like peeking out the windows, where’d you go?
Melinda: I think that's the aspect that a lot of people don't really know about Fives. They're deeply sensitive. They have really deep feelings. It's just that they have a really hard time connecting with others and connecting with those emotions. If somebody identifies as Five and heard me say that they'd be like, do I? But they do.
Nikhil: Do they have a quality of being judgmental at times? Because they built up this tower and they're seeing things from this higher perspective or so they think.
Joanne: I think it's because they find their knowledge as a source of safety and security. It's like if they're more certain then they're less vulnerable but inadvertently they end up looking down on other people. That can often create a lot of tension in their life circumstances. At work they get praised for it because that's what they're paid to do in being the expert but in personal, nonprofessional arenas it's really hard.
The other part around the fortress is that because the gates are locked up, they only have a set number of materials, resources, et cetera. And if only they opened the doors to be connected with the rest of the world, they’d have more resources. But because of their fear of possibly being overtaken and seeing others as possible invaders, they keep their doors locked up and then they need to figure out how am I going to ration myself, my time, my energy, my money.
Melinda: All the things. Which is the passion of the Five, which is avarice. They need to make sure they have enough because they're not accepting other resources internally.
Nikhil: We need to get that drawbridge down for them, to their fortress.
Joanne: But they've also learned how to live on very little. They think they have enough with what they have because they've shrunk in their parts, and they decrease the size of their needs.
Scarcity is there.
Melinda: It's a huge thing.
Joanne: They don't know it's scarcity.
Nikhil: That's a great explanation of Type Fives.
And now we're moving to Type Sixes.
Type Six
Melinda: I have family members who are Sixes.
Nikhil: As we're going through this conversation, there's so many people who are popping into my head for each Type. It's just so beautiful. I'm hoping that's happening to those that are listening and viewing this podcast as well.
Melinda: Yeah. So, Type Six, also a Head Type. Type Sixes are interesting because they're “The Contrarian”. They have lots of terms, but “Contrarian” is good. They live in the world anticipating the worst. So, if Fives, Sixes and Sevens are on the Head Triad and the Fear Triad, Sixess are the ones that overdo fear.
They are constantly anticipating worst case scenarios. How they are going to get through them? What is going to happen? How they're going to survive in order to get through the day and through their lives. So, they have an over focuse on those things and their needs are around security. How can I be safe in this world that is so dangerous. Sixes go about that in different ways either finding somebody who is an authority to latch on to, but also, they're suspicious of them. Finding community and friends to find security in or conquering their fears. Going straight at them. Either way they tend to be controlled by fear.
They often find themselves paralyzed to know what to do in the midst of it, even though they're creating worst case scenarios, they often question themselves. Am I doing the right thing? I don't know. Should we be doing this? I don't know. They often have a very hard time landing on a way to be or go because they have a very hard time trusting themselves and others.
Joanne: Let's say the descriptions of Type Sixes from the outside would mimic a lot of PTSD symptoms. The main difference is that in terms of hyper vigilance, worst case scenario, scanning for signs of danger, mistrusting other people, all that stuff, Sixes do it as part of their defense mechanism. So, Sixes also can experience trauma, but a lot of their internal turmoil comes from them assuming that there's a threat and danger. Pre-traumatic stress disorder probably describes them as opposed to post-traumatic stress disorder.
Whereas Fives tend to find their security in accumulating knowledge, Sixes find the security in anticipating, being vigilant, and planning for things not knowing that they probably don't need to prepare as much. But Sixes, it's as if they need to have something that's dangerous to justify them preparing for it. So, Sixes have a really hard time owning their actual power and their own strength. These are folks who often can be stuck in imposter syndrome, a lot of self-questioning and self-doubt. Even though everyone else is like, what are you talking about? You’re so good at this! No, but what if?
Melinda: Yeah. They give away their power a lot and project it outward, which is another defense mechanism of the Six. They project their power outward. Like, oh, you know what you're doing. I'm going to trust you. But they’re not the contrarian for nothing. There's also a conflictual relationship.
Joanne: It’s a love, hate relationship with authority figures because Sixes have disowned their own power.
Nikhil: For those who don't know what the Imposter Syndrome is, it's really when you tend to self-doubt your own abilities and beliefs when you're feeling you're not good enough or you don't belong here. That's typically known as Imposter Syndrome. I think that's a very good explanation of Sixes.
Moving forward to the last, but not least, clearly the best, and I'm clearly probably already exhibiting some of my characteristic traits for a Type Seven, which is like an Enthusiast or a Dreamer Type. How do Type Sevens typically show up?
Type Seven
Melinda: I'll say this one thing, and then I'll let Joanne take the helm.
Sevens are one of the only Types I know who, when they find their Type, they're ecstatic. They're like, this is clearly the best one. So fun. So exciting. Like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Wait until we get to that depth work.
Nikhil: Oh, I know.
Joanne: I like describing Sevens in comparison to Ones and Fours who are the other idealist Types. It's like a three-legged stool. I mentioned with Ones that they tend to compare reality to the ideal and fill the space in between with frustration, Fours fill it with sadness, and Sevens fill it with excitement and anticipation.
It's kind of counterintuitive, like how are they in the Head Type. Head Type’s easier to understand, how they are in the Fear Triad? Because they're so like positivity, like fun, excitement, etc. It's just that what we see on the outside is the fear showing up. It's the fear of being trapped, especially being trapped in pain and suffering, all the negative stuff in the world. By overly considering the world as being their oyster, and they're going to go out and have all these fun experiences so that they don't FOMO.
Nikhil: Yeah, that's it. It's the fear of FOMO for sure.
Melinda: Absolutely. It's like I'm doing this fun thing now, but what are the five other fun things that I could also be doing right now? It's all about what could be.
Nikhil: Exactly. And I'll tell the viewers and audience like how it shows up for me or how it used to show up for me was that I would have a large group of friends. I have many friends and different group circles. So, I would go out with one group of friends and while I'm there having dinner, I'm not really paying attention to what's going on there. I'm actually thinking about the club that we're going to be going to next where I'm going to meet my next group of friends, which are the more outgoing, like really want to get crazy, we're going to take shots. But I'm here at dinner because these are my resident friends and I still have a good community with them, but I can't wait for the next scene. Let's hurry up and finish up. I'm looking at the clock. I'm like, let's go, we're missing out. The party's about to start.
Melinda: Exactly.
Joanne: I think some ways that that shows up in the day to day is not wanting to lock down plans just in case something more exciting shows up. Often the Sevens can be very slippery in the way that they kind of get away from making decisions or making commitments all the meanwhile, rationalizing. This is what the Head Type kicks in. Really effectively rationalizing why that is good or why that's important. So, Sevens would be like the kids who talk the parents out of making sure that they do their chores because they justified some good reason, but it's really the defense mechanism at work so that they don't have to do the boring stuff.
Melinda: Something else I really want to emphasize with Sevens is that deep fear of being trapped or stuck in negative emotion is the thing. Negative emotion is the thing that drives them. There's huge fear of really being in the present and being in the present means accepting whatever comes, positive negative. It doesn't matter. Sevens avoid the negative. In fact, that I find so sad, they don't actually experience true joy because true joy is being fully in the present and accepting everything that is. All negative and positive experiences and then finding joy.
So, Sevens actually miss out.
Joanne: The other things is that Sevens accidentally end up creating suffering for themselves by avoiding it. So, Sevens are one of the Types that tend to only show up to therapy when they're dragged into couples therapy because their partner is so fed up.
Melinda: “We need to talk.”
“We're good. Everything's fine.”
Nikhil: I can confirm that. Yes, I've been in that situation.
Joanne: People who are in the splash zone are the ones who overly experience negativity because the person who's a Seven is underly dealing with themselves.
Nikhil: Right. I feel like we don't like routines and we don't like to be tied down for too long. We love our freedom. Anytime that there's pain, we cringe and run. I'd usually book a flight to Vegas as soon as I felt like I needed to escape any kind of tough situation, whether that was something that was going on with my family and my dad or whatever. It's just that the feeling of sitting in anything discomfort, I don't want to feel like that’s all that there can be. There always is a positive side or there's a “the grass is greener on the other side” type of situation. That’s why when I read about the Sevens I was like, oh, that's me. I fell right perfectly into that.
Now when you're explaining it like this, and obviously I've been doing the work for the past nine months, you see where the qualities that you think are good, but there is clearly a really bad side to being the way that you are, at least for a Seven. That not having any routine, nowadays, Joanne knows that I can't live without a routine, like I have to be up at six o'clock in the morning. I have to walk. I have to meditate. I have to journal. That's what's great about the Enneagram. It's about finding out who you are, what has worked for you and what hasn't worked for you to get to where you're at today. And then implement a plan of how you can move forward and do it.
Melinda: Follow it to its end. Go all the way, not just start a new project.
Nikhil: No, exactly. For people to really understand, this isn't easy. This is not an easy journey. It's not something that's going to happen overnight for you. I've been on this journey for nine and a half months and I feel like I'm just past the surface of what the potential is. But if you keep at it, despite numerous obstacles that will certainly come up, because you changing is going to trigger a lot of people. It's going to make you have to possibly change jobs. It's going to make you have to change your friends. It's going to bring a lot of change and change is very uncomfortable for people. It's uncomfortable. We're creatures of comfort. It's easy for us to fall back to our autopilot mode and to be back with the same friends that we grew up with. It's not to say that we can't be around these people, you just have to be cognizant about this journey. It's such a beautiful journey. You literally will empower yourself. You will take life by its horns and be able to control and actually dictate what most of the actions and outcomes that will happen in life. Whereas before I feel like you're just going through life and then, oh, something happens and you're shocked and you're not able to handle life's adversities when you're not as awake as you can be.
Joanne: Well said.
Melinda: Yes, there we are. I don’t think I can one-up that.
Nikhil: That's a perfect way I feel to wrap up this beautiful interview today.
Are there any key takeaways that you guys have for us about the Enneagram? Specifically, we'd love for our audience and viewers to be able to join on this journey and try to figure out what their Enneagram Types are. We try to have them do something this week and some sort of challenge.
How to Find Your Enneagram Type
Melinda: I think a key takeaway, which kind of leads into the challenge, and the challenges over the series is the Enneagram is not just a descriptor. It's not just a way of describing coping mechanisms and autopilot patterns. It is a mode and a tool for growth. Deep transformation. With that in mind, that's how I want us to take these challenges that we have for the week. Because this is about finding our essential selves.
Joanne: You really can't change what you don't know is already happening.
The very first step is find out what's happening. So, if you don't know your Type that will be the first place to start. You kind of get a sense of it when you're listening to the nine Types and you're like, ooh, that didn't feel good. Or that sounds so familiar. It might be because either that is your Type or you have a connection to that Type in your growth path, or it might be that some of the significant people in your life kind of embodies that Type, as well. So, just first point of explanation is as you listen to the different Types descriptions notice your internal reactions. If it really isn't likely your Type, you're not going to have much of a reaction to it because your behind-the-scenes defense mechanism isn't going to be put on blast.
Melinda: And if you're like, oh, that Type sounds cool. That's probably not your Type. That's described well, then it's not your Type.
Joanne: After you find out what your Type is, then it's for you to allow whatever reactions to come. It's very normal. It's kind of like the matrix. You take the pill, and you find out that life in reality is like totally different from what you thought it was. It's okay for you to feel disoriented and confused. I highly recommend you either work with a professional who can help walk you down that path or some really good, trusted friends who are also committed to doing their own personal work.
If you don't know your Type, we do have a blog that has like DIY, step by step instructions. Though, because the Enneagram is a description about why we do what we do instead of what we do, it can be a lot more slippery than Strengths Finders or Myers Briggs where you can just take an online test to find your Type.
Melinda: Exactly. There's another resource that we have that will describe probably a really good indicator that you found your correct Type. I would suggest reading both of those resources.
Nikhil: We'll certainly link and provide the descriptions of those websites in our comment section below.
Just one quick question. You're saying that the personality Type tests that are online for the Enneagram are not accurate or reliable sources? Because you know how it is these days, people pass along these little links and it's like, oh yeah, take the Enneagram test. How accurate are those tests just for everyone to understand that.
Joanne: If it helps eliminate some numbers, of the nine, fine.
Melinda: I would say they're not particularly accurate in finding your Core Type because a lot of those tests are going on what the Type can look like, not necessarily the motivator. People get mistyped very easily if they just rely on a test.
Joanne: The social context that we're in also matters too, because countries have their own Enneagram Types. Or specific families or specific organizations. So, sometimes there are some shapeshifting Types. They tend to look like whatever they are expected. So, we also can’t just rely on test results because of those other layers involved. It's also self-reporting and honestly, if we're not really self-aware already, how accurately can we really answer questions about what our core needs or core fears are?
Nikhil: Very true. Thank you guys for joining us on the AlignUs Podcast, where we inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy for more resources on today's events and to stay connected to AlignUs and our app release, visit our website. You can also follow us on all of our social media play pages at AlignUs World.
Until we meet again. Stay aligned. Stay connected and stay anchored in the power of unconditional love. Namaste.
Stay tuned for Subtypes and Insticts
About Dr. Nikhil Sharma & AlignUs
I’m Dr. Nikhil Sharma, founder of AlignUs and for the last 10 years I had dedicated my life to working with patients with liver failure due to alcohol or obesity, who suffer from addictions and was a part of their rehabilitation process and helping them to get to a new liver and a second chance at life. During that period, I thought to myself, what if we could prevent people from suffering major physical health issues by helping them heal from their traumas and improve their mental health?
So, I created AlignUs where our mission is to inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy through compassion, connection and competition.
AlignUs creates a high vibrational atmosphere that involves self-care, physical competition and charitable donations. AlignUs will revolutionize how we do philanthropy in this digital age, while making it fun and rewarding to help each other.
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JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT
Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.
Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:
“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”
“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”
The three Enneagram instincts (Self-Preservation, Social, and Sexual) instincts show up in the way we engage our lives and creative endeavors. Check out this conversation with Rim from The Empowered Sensitive and Creative Podcast!