Enneagram Types & Therapy

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I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this panel, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Whitney Russell Stabile, MS, LPC-S, CEDS-C (Type 1)

• Eden Hyder, LPC, LCMHC-QS (Type 2)

• Leslie Bley, LPC-S (Type 6)

• Joanne Kim, LMFT (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I have four panelists with me, all of whom are professional therapists. We have some amazing panels today, as you can see on the schedule. We have a heart types panel, a gut types panel, a head types panel, a parents panel, but this particular panel is for creating some space to talk about mental health.

With some mental health professionals about their observations about each Enneagram type in therapy. So this panel is going to be perfect, for any Enneagram enthusiast looking to get insights or patterns about how their type approaches mental health, and maybe what some of the barriers might be to, you know, healing and growth, but this panel is also going to be perfect for therapists who use the Enneagram or are thinking about using the Enneagram more in their practice.

So without further ado, let me introduce you to our panelists. Um, we have, uh, Whitney Russell Stabile. Can you just wave so we can, and we have Eden Heider and then Leslie Bley and then Joanne Kim. And Eden is on the heart types panel along with Joanne. So you can go over to the heart size panel and hear a little bit more of their story.

But before we jump into our observations, I'd love for you guys just to give a little brief bio of yourself so we can get to know you. Whitney, would you mind going first? Sure.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): So I'm Whitney and I'm married to Joel Stabile and we have four wonderful kids. We're a blended family. So it's a yours, mine and ours situation.

So there's lots of lovely logistics that go along with that. Um, I've been a therapist since 2009 and, um, I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor. I'm a certified eating disorder specialist consultant. I'm also EMDR trained, and I own a group practice called Brave Haven Counseling in Richardson, Texas.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Amazing. And you are type one, correct?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yes, that is right. And you made the type one go first. Like I didn't get to learn what to expect from what everybody else said.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I know you're prepared. So, Eden, would you introduce yourself?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes, I am Eden Heider. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, formerly lived in Texas and partnered with Whitney in the past, um, which has been really fun.

I have a practice with my husband, Michael Heider, who's also a therapist. He's an Enneagram 9. I'm an Enneagram 2. And, the practice is called Inside Out Collaborative. Also have some creative projects that I've dabbled in over the years. One is a podcast called Inside Out Podcast, which focuses on attachment and providing kind of psychoeducational material on attachment and how to integrate that into our concepts of ourselves and our relationships.

And that's kind of where my specialty is as well as an eating disorders and, anxiety and depression.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great Eden. Thank you.

And we have Leslie Bley who have interviewed on a past summit. And so it's good to have you back. Leslie, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I live in Austin, Texas. I have been a therapist for about 20 years. I'm an LPC and supervisor here and I am married to an Enneagram nine. I'm an Enneagram six and my husband and I have twin boys that are 13. So it is a lot of unique smells and sounds and sites in my house, but it's a lot of fun.

And then part of my practice is working with groups. I run a group for women throughout the year called Compassionate Community Therapy, and it's modeled after attachment and motion regulation, story work. And then I also run groups for therapists called Business Vitality, and it's to help support therapists who are often feeling super alone in their own formation and in their business sense.

And I come from a business background, but a therapist heart. And so I try to mix those in these support and business, you know, style groups. And then I also try to do regular Enneagram for counselors, uh, trainings and webinars since there's not a whole lot out there giving tons of real straightforward.

You know, credible ways to integrate this into our world. So that's me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Leslie. And not, but last but not least, Joanne Kim, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I am an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in the Silicon Valley. So in the San Francisco Bay area, and I, in classic or fashion where I get bored very easily, I have three businesses that now I think about on, like, I probably should have just stuck with the one, um, but, I love what I do, in my therapy practice.

A lot of my clients are nines, ones, twos, and fours. So most of the right side of the enneagram, because my people tend to struggle with a lot of anxiety, guilt, and shame. Partially because they have an allergic reaction to anger. So one of my hats is as an Enneagram therapist. So my other hats are around creating a, an online school for feelings, because there's a lot of things that I cover with my clients where they're like, I really wish I'd learned this in school.

And I'm like, got it. I will make one. So, um, that is my joy. It keeps me up at night. Just cause it's a lot of work, but, it's something that I feel like I've been brought on this planet to do so. I am a self preservation for, married to a social one. With my work wife who is a sexual tooth. And so I got both of my aerotypes covered and w definitely grow and stretch each other in all the interesting ways possible So happy to be here and happy to share things related to mental health and how the Enneagram helps inform our path forward.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wonderful. Thank you so much, Joanne. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to go around the Enneagram starting with type one, and I want to spend about five to seven minutes or so on each Enneagram type, talking about maybe one or two observations that you all have, not all of you have to share about each type because we have to put some boundaries and limitations on our time.

It's hard enough to do, to talk about the Enneagram with one person for, for an hour, but it's, it's going to be a little challenging, but I think we're going to. We're going to be able to uncover some great stuff today. So let's start with type one and we can just, just jump in. And really, again, what we're trying to do is just to share some observations so that we can help people maybe recognize some patterns in their own type, and also to help some therapists who are interested in using the Enneagram in their practice to know what to expect if somebody wants to do the Enneagram and, and what to look out for.

So super excited about this, this conversation. So, anyone can jump in now. What about type ones? What do you, what are you seeing in your practice?

Perfection in Progress: How Enneagram Ones Navigate Trust and the Long Journey of Therapy

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I'll say that sometimes type ones are looking for the perfect therapist, so they often struggle with just kind of the imperfection and journey of therapy.

Once they, it takes them a while to really trust a therapist because that inner critic and all of the, the deep shame that they have, like it's going to be a while before they're really vulnerable with that deep stuff. And then once they have established that bit, it's really hard to leave that therapist.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So you are saying that Leslie too, when they don't terminate, they just want to continue on in therapy for a really long time? Is that what you're saying?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, or just not want to even consider transitioning maybe to a different modality. Maybe it's time to work on something from a different angle, but that trust is established and it just doesn't feel easy or good to leave.

And that's been my experience with multiple Enneagram Ones.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, I like thinking about Ones as the improvers, because often they're like called the perfectionists and reformers, and I think that applies to some Ones, but the spirit of the term improver I think captures like the intentions of those who are Ones, and Often other people experience them as being like critical or judgmental, but it's really from this like sense of being connected with this ideal of like the perfect world or how the world ought to be.

And so it can be really lonely for a lot of ones who have that sense because other people don't see it. And so I think one of the things that often get missed with ones is that sadness from. Not being seen in one's experiences, being on this like mission to like help the planet be better. And then also being misunderstood and rejected by other people.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Type 1s tend to be more on the like, Restrictive behaviors and or over exercising everyone. I tell people like when they slip over into seven, there might be some binging there, but then they'll come back to one and then be mad at themselves for all the things that they did at seven.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That makes sense.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): That;s control.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, there's a, there's a, a need for that. Yeah. That structure, which I think that the passion for justice, which comes from that really sweet space, almost that, that connection to that ideal that you were talking about Joanne, that need for control and structure.

And I think the eating disorder can really. As well as maybe other mental health systems can offer like a respite from the world, which feels out of control or from their emotions, which feel out of control at times.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I'd say like, anxiety and depression has a certain flavor for ones in that. I mean, I think for ones like depression doesn't look how we typically think of depression like being in one's feels and like, just like, you know, whining and complaining, but it's more of like the existentially type, like in being more resigned, being resigned, like, I don't get to have my wants and needs because like I have to always be on and be responsible.

And so it's kind of one's own individuality, personal wants and needs kind of take the back seat if it's like available at all. And so there's this, I mean, I think that's partially why there's so much resentment buildup, but it's not necessarily just resentment because other people aren't willing to show up for them.

Once I've actually eliminate that option for other people by stepping into those roles themselves first, but to step away from that feels really scary because then it's out of control and out of their agency. It's kind of a cycle that they get into.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Ones usually do look super functional and a lot of the mental health stuff that they're going through like even with OCD or depression, anxiety, eating disorders are usually still very functional, which I think is one of the reasons why it's hard for them to see that there that there's a problem.

Like, my therapist tells me I'm a long sufferer. Like, it takes me a long time. To actually like acknowledge that there's a problem because I can be so functional.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): And isn't that kind of the power of anger as your core emotion to like keep You feeling active. It's very energizing. Right. Doesn't feel depressed.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Alright, let's move on to type 2. I'm curious about Eden's experience.

Boundaries & Burdens: Navigating Shame & Stability in Enneagram Twos

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah.

Oh man. Yeah. When I see type 2's, I think I see it's because there's so much relational instability um, or distress distress And it's the relationship or the relational instability that brings them in, which is often interpreted as their own failure. They've, they're failing in the relationship. And so they're coming in, um, and I think that can translate to a lot of resentment.

Sometimes it can go into a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And I think kind of what you said, Joanne, like telling a one, like. What if you tried to not improve? What if you tried to actually get worse, get worse? Right. In a way, I'm telling it to is what if you tried to set boundaries, it feels, you know, counterintuitive to a two that's struggling with their relationship because that feels like you're creating more conflict.

You're creating more distress. And that is really anxiety-provoking.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): For, I tell two is like, we have to set boundaries. But then the second part is you have to reinforce the boundary and you also have to manage your own feelings about reinforcing the boundary because there is that fear of the disruption in the relationship, but also the shame and guilt that they feel after they set the boundary.

Usually tends to allow them to not reinforce the boundary later. It’s like, they'll say, no, I'm not going to do that. And then they feel so much shame and guilt about saying no. And then they're like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah, there's 2 parts to the boundary battle.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So boundary work is just gonna be a big deal when, when twos in, in therapy.

And I'm next door as a three to the twos. And I, I, I resonate with, with that as well, like setting a boundary with kids or in parenting or anything. And then feeling like the bad guy for, for doing that and then having to wrestle with that. So I, uh, yeah, that's really insightful.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Usually have to give a disclaimer to like two clients who are coming in for therapy.

I'm like, well, I have to kind of assess where they are 'cause. If someone is like, really fused with the type 2 structure, then it's like, well, relationship is everything and so they come in for therapy. As long as their relationship, there's some stuff going on, but then once they resolve those relationships, they're like, well, I'm done.

Right? So they just like, leave, but there are a lot of people who come in and they're like, I don't know why I keep getting in the cycle where, like, I'm putting in so much work. Yeah, in these connections and like, why won't they love me type of thing. And so with those people, I'm like, I'm just going to give you a heads up.

You're going to come in thinking that the main thing is related to relationships. And what is actually going to happen is we're going to work on your connection with yourself just to give them a heads up. Cause not everyone wants that. And so then they can like move on to the next best spot. It's like, people who do know about the enneagram have an easier time sitting with that idea and that they keep like, getting themselves into the cycle.

They can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That’s really helpful, Joanne. That it's sort of therapy's sort of a conditional on a relationship. You might think, well, I need help because this relationship's out of whack. I need help on that. And then I'll leave. And you're like, no, stay, stay.

We need to work on, on you. That's good. Yeah.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): But I think if people are in that place, like as therapists, I'm like, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If anything else comes up in the future, let me know, just kind of leave the door open because I think twos are also more attentive to the relationship between them and the therapist and so like, I, I try to be more mindful about not imposing an agenda that might get them to like, make sure that I'm okay. Or I like them. So I kind of leave things a bit more open ended and it's like, yeah, whatever you're bringing in, like, let's work on that. And if they seem like, you know, I don't know if there's some, something more to this, then I might bring things up more directly. Um, because even knowing what's going on behind the scenes for twos might feel really painful because it feels so embarrassing compared to like fours who like, want you to tell them like all the. Deep dark. It's like, they're usually like, I want you to tell me that I'm not okay with them. I need to take it more lightly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think Michael Sheehan pointed out that in my interview with him, that a lot of times twos are so nice. They're asking him lots of questions. He's like, no, we need to ask you, I need to ask you the questions.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have twos that will, they just, They, they need those, like, first couple minutes of like, checking in with me almost.

And, and we've discussed that and, and made that kind of a part of our contract just to kind of ease them into the process. And I do think twos can struggle. With therapy, especially if they haven't been in therapy before, they may need know that they need help and know that they need to be there sitting in the room, but be very uncomfortable with the focus being on them and not really know what to do without data coming from the other person.

About how they're doing, what they need, how they should be in the room with the therapist.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know, so they're really like, when we are challenging them and saying, listen, you're the one that we're going to focus on. You're the one that all the attention is going to be on. They don't know what to do with that. It's like kind of a little disorienting for them to be the focus and to not be getting that feedback about.

You're doing a good job or I really like you or, you know, like we're, we're vibing, you know, as the kids, the kids, yeah, the last thing that I'll say just very specifically as an eating disorder therapist. I have never had a two in my office that hasn't believed this belief that I'm about to say. They believe that the way their body looks is either going to keep somebody in relationship with them or separate and disrupt a relationship.

And so, Then managing how their body looks through, like, exercise or diet or whatever is like, really important because that is threatening to whether they will have the relationship, whether people will love them or not and I have never sat in a in a session with the two that didn't believe that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Do you know if that's the case for different genders? TBD. I'll get back with you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's really good. Okay, let's talk about type threes.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I don't find a whole lot of threes in my practice because they're often looking for coaches. Unless they're dragged into couples therapy and even then kind of things kind of flame out because. Yeah. The either the shape shifting nature of the three and trying to like look good in front of the therapist or they're like, this is not moving fast enough.

Like, let's go or feelings are too slow. Like, why are we bogging down the process? And so I, I, when I've worked with threes, I like, I feel like there's like a very small window in the beginning where I need to say a very concise version of why the Enneagram is important. And how their type 3 pattern fits.

So that I can, like, map out the sequence. And that we're right here, so this section in the middle might feel like a waste of time. But this is actually the fastest way to get there. And because of that window closes, then I'm like, I don't know if they'll just leave and they don't know if it was actually useful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I had every single 1 of those bullet points listed. So I agree. I do think that 3s can, whether they're coming, you know, is 1 thing, but I think they can be a little bit of a flight risk. It's like they've, they've worked just enough to find a little bit of relief. And then they, they're gone cause that patient is real that they have a, they really struggle with that.

The only other thing that I would say is like, if you've been working with the 3 and they've revealed some behaviors to you that aren't, you know, like, super pretty behaviors that they are really struggling with, they're probably not going to bring them up again. And so like, you have to be the one that kind of intentionally checks in with them about that.

Clients who struggle with porn or addiction or, you know, any other things, cheating. And so I have to be the one that's like, Hey, how are you doing with that? Cause they're not going to bring it up again.

Beyond Achievement: Uncovering the True Self of Enneagram Threes Through Relationships & Vulnerability

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. The threes that I've had in, in my office one day, Therapy can become another subcategory of their performance of their like, I want to accomplish something here.

And so they can show up as very on task and as very like, Oh, you did. Wow. You've accomplished all these things. You've done all these things, or, wow, you've done so much work, and a lot of, I've got a lot of circling back with them that I do and actually, what I've found really interesting with my three clients is family therapy or some type of family or couples where you're seeing them in the relationship where, where oftentimes they're not feeling as competent or there is right.

Something that's happened. And that's been, that's been probably the most revealing, you know, of seeing what's, what's there in a three and then also where I've seen so much healing as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. I'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so, it's so valuable. What, I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're. So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. 'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so valuable. What I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just, just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're.

Dealing with them, because a lot of times that friction will be in their relationships because they'll be working so hard and that's what it will be that their spouse or their kids will feel neglected.

They're burnt out all those things and as a self press 3 kind of like a 1 kind of like a self press for like, we can be very like masochistic, very like. Just grinding, grinding, grinding, and no one knows that anything's wrong under the surface.

So it takes a lot for me to actually show if there's something wrong.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): When something you just said, Tyler, with The threes I've gotten to work with and I've, I've had a handful that have just come, you know, to improve. Two things. One is generally when there's like a pretty decent sized stressor to that happens during our relationship, that therapy totally jettisons into something different.

Really starts to get to the heart of things, but almost like with a seven, you, sometimes there needs to be kind of a catalyst, whether it's someone else in the room or a marriage that falls apart or a relationship or a job that falls apart that was really on their milestone benchmark list, that they really begin to do the actual feeling work that is more balancing for them.

And the other thing is there's so much, and this is heart triad, there's, They want to achieve in work and in relationships. There's such a tension I see with threes of succeeding in marriage and family and succeeding in jobs and that sort of work life balance, tension that they have to find at some point.

And I think that's been really neat to watch. They have such big, you have such big hearts, not just trying to climb the ladder, you know, at your job. You also want to be the best dad or the best. Or, you know, I appreciate that tension for threes.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great thoughts, Leslie. Yeah. I think that's just helpful to, for threes to help us normalize getting help, counseling, that just part of the process of life that you're not a failure, or doing something wrong.

It's, it's normal. That's really helpful to have that people remind us of that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So in the Bible for therapists, the DSM that highlights all these mental health disorders, whatever, in the personality disorder section, there's basically a go to personality disorder for all of the nine types, except for type three.

And I think that's partially because the United States is a very three ish 3 ish, 8 ish culture, and there's a lot of image orientation, things like that. And so. And I'm also, you know, in the Silicon Valley, which is I think very geared towards threes, like the social context really matters in that if a three has shapeshifted into being the successful persona, according to their immediate context, they're not going to be able to see that their personality patterns themselves are an issue.

That's why everyone else usually complains about the three instead of the person realizing it for themselves. And so there are certain professions like, anyone who has a public, platform or a pulpit who thinks that they're doing really well, not knowing that that's actually reinforcing their ego structure.

And so I think it's important for different organizations like communities, churches, whatever, to recognize that. It is a magnet for certain personalities. And that when they shine, that's actually their ego talking. It's not really who they are. And that's part of the reason why it's so hard for the threes to actually get help because they don't know that they're struggling.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I totally agree with that, Joanne. And I wish I could elaborate on that, but, for the sake of time, we'll keep moving here, but I think you said enough really helpful things for, for threes. Okay. Let's, let's move to type fours. What do you want to say about type four?

Joanne, do you want to jump in as a type, as our type four?

Therapy as a Playground: Challenging Enneagram Fours' Ego Trap and Shifting from Introspection to Action

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I mean, in fours fashion, I'm going to say something controversial. So, disclaimer, I think therapy, psychotherapy itself is a fours playground. Because therapy is designed in helping people focus on their internal world and their thoughts and feelings and their past and their trauma and all that kind of stuff.

And to like, you know, really do all this intersectional work that fours know how to do for free. They can do it on their own time. And so I think the trap for fours is that they seek therapy and like end up becoming the therapist's favorite client because the therapist doesn't need to do much work because the four clients already there doing the things that a therapy client is supposed to do.

And I think there's kind of this feedback loop that happens where the four client doesn't necessarily get healthier. Because their ego pattern is just playing itself out in therapy. And so it's important for therapists to know that is the bias that's baked into the profession of therapy, kind of like how coaching can be very like three ish, eight ish, and that my style as a therapist has changed over time to be more coaching like, because what a lot of for clients need is not more focusing on feelings and dredging up all the gunk.

But to get their asses in gear and to like, say, Hey, these things you think is not available to you. And that's why you're struggling so much, partially because you've identified with being a suffering person. But what if you actually have good things readily available to you already? It's not out there somewhere and maybe the only thing that's needed is for you to actually like, Map out the concrete steps and break it down into smaller pieces and actually follow through with those steps in the type one ish Aero type way not a lot of fours are up for that And so in that sense, I think it takes some discernment on the therapist part to recognize like what's the nature of client?

I'm working with here. If there are four are they here to reinforce their identity as a suffering person? Or do they recognize the trap that they're caught in and they want something different? Because if, if that's the case, we need to not do therapy as well. It's traditionally been, we actually need to do more action orientation and more body work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of, uh, fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at, at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I, I agree with all of that. Like, I think that my job. Working with four is to help them like organize their thoughts and emotions because they can just sit there and swirl And go down deep into them and my job and i'm good at it because i'm a one and that's what I do It's like these go here these go here these go here and now we're gonna now we need to make a plan. You know like holding them accountable to the action um, because I think they The other piece and you touched on this, but like they over identify with their feelings so much like sometimes they really fear any kind of healing.

So it's like, hey, what if we aren't this depressed person anymore? Or what if we aren't like, Really riddled in the shame what then, you know, they don't know who they would be because they over identify with those feelings so much that it can, like, even just imagining a place where they don't experience that is really hard and familiar.

And the other thought was, they, whether they have it or not, they can present as looking like they have ADHD. And attentive type because they can get so distracted by all the shiny objects. And because they are repressed doing, they don't get a lot done and they struggle with like motivation to do ordinary tasks.

And that's what I see a lot. And my clients is. It's like, whether they actually do have ADHD or not, sometimes I just treat them as if they do. And it usually works.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This is, this is so good. Do you guys find that force? Do they, do you feel like they're so introspective that they don't need therapy?

Or do they kind of, once they get into therapy, like type ones, they kind of stay in therapy for a long time? What, what have you guys observed?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Introspection is not self awareness. If they keep recycling the same thing over and over again. Yep. They're more self focused She's so part of it. You're a little

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): echo chamber.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah. Yeah, and so focusing on relationships, I think is an important way in To the self, to the fours work, because other people are in the floor fours slash zone. So there's a lot of this like push and pull dynamic or like pursuer withdrawer dynamic where like, kind of depending on what type of the other people are, if it's, let's say a group context, like work or community, family, church, whatever, it's like, Being the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, like exile, whatever.

There's kind of like a social role piece to the four. And then if it's more of like a one on one relationship, it's like, like magnets, like that switch back and forth. If the person's closed, they get bored and they want the drama and the intensity because they're intensity junkies. And so they're like, I don't want, I don't want to be around you.

Or like, I don't deserve to be around you. And then when the person's far away, I was like, Oh, I missed you so much. That whole thing. So I think because relationships are more concrete than existential, you know, deep purpose, meaning oriented topics where, you know, force can have ideas of the people they're in relationships with and there's the actual people involved.

So sometimes like inviting in their partner or their family member might be helpful so the therapist can see, Oh, like. I had this whole idea. Of this person based on how the four describe them. And now I see this person as they actually are. And there's a world of a difference.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. Introspection is not self awareness.

That is really a good statement.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Fours will get offended by that though. I'll just give you a heads up.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, before we go to fives, I, I just want to say, I do appreciate all the fours watching and the, those who are therapists, you know, you look at guys like Dr. Kurt Thompson and other fours who are just leading voices.

Cause they, it's just, they get the internal world there when they're healthy. They're just, Prophetic in our culture, uh, and really helpful, especially right now, since post COVID, since there's just a boom of people that are needing help and coming to you guys. So we, yeah, I, I really appreciate the fours and I want them to hear that before we, before we transition to fives.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Very short. Self preservation fours are the fours that don't look like fours. They look like all the other types. Depending on their mood. And the main piece for them is that they're the ones who suffer silently solo and they get mistyped a lot and sometimes get turned off by the Enneagram because of that.

And so for self pressed fours, they need, their growth path involves Practicing more of the traditional four ish behaviors, like complaining more often in real time to more people, which feels like pulling teeth, but it's absolutely necessary for them to recognize just how much they're struggling outside of this idea of, I need to be a strong person who can withstand a lot of things.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good, Joanne. Thank you. All right, let's transition to fives. What do you guys have for fives?

I don't see many fives unless they're brought in for a marital. So I'm, I'm curious. About the rest of you and your experience with fives.

Breaking Down Barriers: Navigating the Emotional Guard of Enneagram Fives in Relationships

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I would agree with that. Leslie, when I, when I see fives coming in, it's with a partner, often, and it's when I, when I think about attachment styles, I think about that avoidant attachment style.

So you've probably got an avoidant attached person, the partner that's fucked any room five, and then you've got them paired. Maybe with an anxious style and they activate each other and they're coming in to kind of work on that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And man, just the one triggering the other triggering the other. Yeah.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I've noticed you just doing Ingram work, not as a therapist. It's really hard to get them to open up because of the privacy. They have such good boundaries and they don't want me talking about the Enneagram a lot of times because it feels like I'm getting to their reading their mail, jumping over the fence, getting into the castle and can very, very uncomfortable.

And so that's interesting to hear you guys kind of say that you've experienced a little bit of that in therapy as well, that it's kind of hard to get, get over the wall or those privacy fences.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. My experience with fives. I've, I've seen a couple and you won't get the full picture until you've been working with them for like a year and then they'll drop this bomb on you and they're like, Oh my God, everything makes sense.

Now it's like this really pertinent piece of information. And then you finally get the full picture and then you're like, all right, now we can do some work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Oh, my goodness.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It happened to me with one of my fives I was working with recently. I was like, why have we never talked about this?

And she's like, you know. She never asked. She knows the Enneagram too. So we kind of had a good laugh about it.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Besides like relationship issues, professionally fives can struggle a lot. Because they spend so much time in their head and don't take a whole lot of action being actually repressed, like they can mull over something in for forever and then make a decision kind of more reluctantly because there's like a deadline or like stuff like that.

And so they might extend a whole lot more mental energy than the task actually requires. So that's been a struggle that I've. seen quite often and um, either teammates at work or spouses get super frustrated because like there's this delay effect.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Leslie, I think you were going to share something in. And then I also want to hear from you guys if there's any like general anxiety disorder or if there's any other disorders that you see with fives.

I would be curious to know what you see.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Well, I was just going to say, similar to Joanne sharing about, um, the space and the time need. I see a lot of fives that need the encouragement to be allowed to answer questions off the cuff, which is very uncomfortable for a lot of fives. They would prefer to speak accurately and accuracy takes time and reflection and information. And so being allowed to say, you can change your answer down the road. We're not holding you to this. I would just love to hear what you are. able to track or notice and you can circle back anytime it's okay to not quite get it, but there's this, there's just a tension around speaking off the cuff for a lot of fives and therapy is so in the moment so often.

And I think that I've seen that barrier.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. One thing I've noticed with my own mother is a type five is maybe this is Like the, like share with the ones, they, they're looking for the perfect therapist like I know for my mom, my mother is a five and a wonderful five. There's only like a particular kind of person that she'll go to.

And so maybe is it a little bit like that too? Does it maybe fives have a hard time of going to a therapist that they view as maybe competent or, You know, I don't know if you've seen that, but I was just thinking about that off the top of my head.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I wonder if there's a conflict between what they want and what they need when they're looking for a therapist.

What they, what they're wanting is someone who's right, as intellectual as they are, can kind of recite things to them, can lay it out very, um, rationally and logically, but maybe what they need is someone who can sit there and hold space and invite the emotion, invite the questions, invite uncertainty, and let that be a safe place for them to feel that.

But I think there's a conflict there.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): If there's any further thoughts, you can jump in. Otherwise let's move to type six.

Embracing the Pendulum: How Naming Duality Brings Freedom and Clarity to Enneagram Sixes

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): This is my number. I can jump in and say something since I'm a six and I've done a lot of therapy, on both sides of the chair. I really think being allowed to name, and this is how the Enneagram changed my life and it felt again, like kind of somebody had put Jumped into my backyard and had been stalking me and all that exposure was, was challenging.

But to name these dualistic experiences of having some love hate for things, having some fear and courage for things, having this extreme dependent times and extreme independent times, almost showing up like disorganized attachment, if you're familiar with kind of the sort of bifurcation of, of both anxious and avoidant styles.

And there's just a lot that feels kind of like this internal turmoil. And until a lot of sixes get any, Enneagram language, they can just feel kind of crazy. Anything from paranoid to, bipolar to, I mean, just to have somebody name this internal phobic to counter phobic continuum in a way that's safe and feeling seen and loved in that and where the gifting is in that, I think, is is huge for sixes.

And it's been really important for my own freedom, my own work to not feel like I am two different people, even though I can experience these extreme differences and this back and forth. That's really good. Leslie.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, Leslie, I'm married to a six, so I wish I would have heard that 18 years ago to know that I was marrying a, a bundle of opposites who could, you know, swing on a pendulum and.

And to just show compassion and have empathy for that and come alongside them and not, not freak out about it.

I wonder if one thing that gets outsourced by sixes is power and authority, disconnecting from their own power and authority, projecting it outwards, and then someone else takes on that power and authority.

And then the six, depending on the subtype, have different ways of interacting with the projected person. So having this sometimes conflictual relationship with authority figures or like completely fusing and aligning with them and that because of that the growth path for six is involved Recognizing that a lot of their mental activity or their anxiety or whatever comes from them having disconnected from their own power their work is to Bring that back, take ownership, make a decision, be decisive, and then own the outcomes of their decision knowing that they can make new decisions along the way so that they don't need to make this huge big decision up front that might set them off on a forever path and having more boldness and courage to face reality.

Each moment for what it is.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, just saying to sixes, what do you want in this situation? What are you thinking? What are you hoping for? What's been working for you? What's not been working for you? Anything that they can name on their own. Cause we're, we're a both and. We are a flight risk cause we get suspicious that you're seeing something wrong with us.

And we are over relying on authorities. And so there's kind of this, um, challenge there. We don't want to over rely on a therapist authority. We need to develop that gut centered self attachment. But then we also don't, we can be a flight risk if we feel unsafe or we perceive something is unsafe in the relationship.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): The one thing that I'll say about working with sixes is that, you know, they, because they're thinking dominant and thinking repressed. They are really good at rationalizing a lot of their fears and all of their worst case scenarios and They do really value their ability to kind of scan the horizon And so like a therapist does have to be very gentle and they're challenging of those like thinking patterns because A six identifies with them very strongly.

And so if you're like, hey, that's not totally real, or that's not totally a great way of thinking, that, that can be really challenging for the therapeutic relationship. So you have to be really gentle in how you challenge some of their anxieties and some of their fears.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think to Leslie's point, and then what, what you shared.

Whitney, that's just me talking, not as a therapist, cause I'm not one, but just from experience of having, you know, maybe being married to a six and then also having a counterphobic six son, there's lots of conversations about authority, and I'm not sure if that plays out in therapy with, with sixes of like, maybe, you know, kind of directing your attention towards some of those issues in their life and helping them work through issues of authority, like being, uh, overly trusting of authority.

Like I know my wife is very trusting of me. It makes me makes me wonder sometimes like I think she's she's leaning on me too much or trust me too much. Like she's fighting for me like an eight. And I'm like, I don't know if I deserve that. And or she should be doing that. She's just so like loyal, you know, to me.

And then my son is just, you know, rebel kind of as a counterphobic six, just rebels against all authority, even, and he's like a master rationalize, rationalize, or you know, he finds ways to get out of being under my authority.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It also sounds like your son has a seven wing. He's able to figure out how to get out from under your authority pretty easily or quickly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I don't know. I mean, it feels like he acts as it's both pretty well. Anything else, uh, observations on sixes? Oh, go ahead, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I was just going to say, as you said, authority, I really thought of the word safety. And I think that is, that is what authority and like that's the testing of authority and the counter is a counter phobic, right?

That pushes against the is really wanting to know that they're safe, that they're going to be safe right. In these, in these relationships in life. And, and when I when I'm working with sixes, I think that's part of the work that I do. Even like, Hey, what's what makes you feel safe in this room?

Right? Like kind of building up that internal sense and intuitive sense of safety and power, Joanne, like that there's, they can hold that sense or what gives them that sense on their own apart from. These outsourced source of power

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): lines, like moving away from polarization and more integration that they can be steady and exposed to risk all at the same time, that one does not negate the other, but it's more like knowing how to rest in that in between

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): and build up the tolerance for feeling unsafe sometimes, because.

Yeah, it is not a safe. This is not a safe world in a lot of ways. It's not guaranteed, right? And so building the eat and I love your, like, what is safe for you? How do we create that? But then at the same time, building the tolerance around not always feeling safe, but feeling connected and embodied, like Joanne was saying, that's so important.

Then the more you, the more sixes trust their gut, the more they can weather unsafe times, unsafe or truly unsafe experiences.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This has been great guys, talking about issues, authority, safety, like you mentioned, Eden, helping them to feel safe. No, you know, a lot of sixes struggle with, with anxiety.

And so helping them with that and helping to give them compassion for outworking of their strength of protecting of seeing what could go wrong in order to protect Their loved ones. And so that they feel like they're hardwired with vigilance, uh, for a positive reason to, to protect. And you can see why they would get anxious.

That vigilance is starting to get out of hand a little bit, but just to be a source of. Bring a sense of reassurance and comfort to them to help them to realize that they're not the problem, that this is, there's not something wrong with them, is, is incredibly helpful. Okay, should we, let's move to type sevens.

Navigating the Painful Paradox: Understanding Enneagram Sevens and Their Unique Relationship with Hardship

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): That hard is harder for sevens. That is my internal mantra. And I believe it and I feel for them in it.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Does anybody want to build off of that? Hard is harder? What you mean by that, Leslie? Or or anything you want to, else you want to share?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, what I mean by that is the tolerance for suffering, if it hasn't been, been built and it gets built in different ways, and often it gets built in ways you didn't sign up for, but the tolerance for pain, the tolerance for hard things for, taking responsibility for themselves, for moving away from satisfaction and demand from.

moving away from more is more. It just seems to me that their capacity and tolerance around suffering is just very challenging for them. Very, if it doesn't, if it can't kind of be moved forward quickly or bypassed with, information or something, it's, it's just so hard. To weather, a lot of the pain of just suffering of various kinds.

So to me, I really do feel for them that the hard feels a lot harder, um, than maybe some of us might approach hard. And

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I would almost say it's like, they're not even experiencing the suffering. So it's almost like they're not, they haven't like built a tolerance. There's so much compartmentalization of the suffering.

I'm married to a seven, so I, I can talk all day about what goes on with the seven. In my experience, sevens do have a lot of addiction. There's a lot of suicidal ideation, sometimes even suicidal attempts, can have a lot of anxiety, but a lot of anger at the same time. As a therapist, you will need to catch their reframing at like every turn.

Because you'll say something and challenge them and then they'll bring something else up to kind of negate what you said. And it's very rational and logical, but you gotta, you gotta catch them in it. Cause like you were saying, Tyler, like about your son, which was what was making me think that, you know, that seven wing, like they're so good.

At arguing and coming up with all different kinds of reasons about why something will work or, you know, whatever their, whatever their side of the argument is, they're so sophisticated and so quick at being able to come up with arguments for their side. And that is one of the reasons why it's really hard for them to be for them to change.

And even to be motivated to change and like, they do have to have some internal motivation or it's not going to happen. Like external motivators don't really do it. You know, I'm often telling my clients or even my clients who have 7 children, you know, like. You can try to give them all the consequences you want, like, life ultimately is going to be what teaches them those lessons, those like, unchangeable situations that they can't just negotiate themselves out of, those are the things that are going to be motivating to them, and Finally give them some kind of internal motivation for change.

They can have a lot of difficulty making life decisions. They can have difficulty caring for themselves. And I honestly think because they are, you know, that they're repressed and feeling, and they have no. intuitive line or access to feeling and emotions like emotion education and awareness is a non negotiable treatment goal.

Like, sometimes they will say that they know what emotions are, but like, do they actually experience them and emote them and talk about them with their loved ones? Like that takes so much work for a seven to be able to do and it takes a lot of patience for them as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Those are good thoughts, Whitney.

So what, when do, when does a seven show up in your guys office? What's, what's happened? Can you speak to that? Is it an addiction?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Sometimes I think it's like the people in their lives that are like, we can't do this anymore. Like you have got to do something, you know, a lot of times sevens will Work their way into a relationship where the other people are changing so that they don't have to change other people are kind of picking up the slack or enabling their behaviors in a lot of ways and so a lot of times it is like the people in their lives are like listen we're not going to do that anymore and having to hold that firm firm boundary with them. That's when I see them or addiction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): for sure.

I like thinking about sevens and the context of the idealist triangle along with ones and fours, like the three legged stool. We need all three legs to be even. It kind of like also overlaps with like the internal family system model of like the ones being the grownup, the fours being the teenagers and the sevens being the kids, but we have all of them, regardless of our type.

And when we overly rely on one leg of the stool and we underutilize the other ones, then things are just going to fall apart at some point. And so the piece that I think sevens outsource to other people, suffering responsibilities, type four, type one. And so like somebody else in their life probably occupies those positions, even if they're not ones and fours, like, there's a lot of sevens on relationships with very responsible people and they get, they get resentful.

So, you know, drag the seven into calls therapy or whatnot. But up until then, part partners or family members are the ones who are just putting in so much. And that is that external motivation like they're getting sevens are getting all this pressure from the outside because they themselves don't want to do it.

It's not personally important to them. They just need to wait out storm of the other person's complaints and eventually the person's going to give up and they're just going to do it themselves until the relationship gets so strained that the person who's been kind of nagging or whatever. It's like, I ain't doing this anymore.

I'm out. And then all of a sudden, the seventh, so I was like, well, where'd you go? And then they have all these bills to pay and like things that they completely neglected. So I think, I think a lot of times the way to get a seventh attention is that rock bottom experience, either through addictions or divorce or whatever.

They lose their job, where they don't have any more options literally available to them. And if the seven happens to make their way into therapy and they're open because they have no other options and life has already fallen apart, I like using the metaphor of the human body made of flesh and bone. If you have no structure in the human body and the, you know, it's just a bag of skin and organs on the floor, that person's not living.

In the same way that a person who's all bones and no flesh is not living either. So, structure, order, organization, responsibility, the things that the seven resists actually bring about the very life force that makes life as beautiful as it is. So, if sevens are seeking freedom, to thinking that freedom equals no limits, then they're going to paint themselves into a corner where they're completely restricted.

The opposite of which is if they actually choose limits and self limits, self imposed limits, which is basically taking responsibility. Then they have all these options available. So I think like there's some part of like maybe mentally or intellectually, like mapping that out for them saying like, I know you want freedom.

I want that for you too. Let's not get into a power struggle between the service and the client, but how can you actually give real freedom for yourself? Yeah. By voluntarily opting into some of these responsibilities. I think the power struggle piece is pretty big with sevens because they're very good at weaseling their way out of it.

And so I think it's important for therapists to not get it caught up in that either By becoming the next nagging person. So having a more neutral like more passive. Sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good Joanne some really deep and profound thoughts there as we move to type X, we have to keep moving here and we have two more types, but I'll just make a note that.

You know, my, for, if you're, if you have a friend or family member or partner, that's assertive type, like a three, seven, or eight, or maybe a five, who doesn't want to open up. It's okay to, to, to call them out and say, Hey, I'm not okay with this anymore. This behavior, we need to go and get help. I, you know, I didn't want to get help in my marriage was struggling.

You know, maybe a four or five years in the marriage, but my wife has a six had the enough courage to say, to come out and say, this is not okay. You're working too much. You're always listening to hundreds of podcasts, filling your mind, like there's no space for me. There's a, this is a problem and she was, she will, she was able to do that as a six for nines, you know, and other times it might be harder to, to say that so we're just giving old permission here to, to come at the threes like me or the sevens or eights, if you're in married to an assertive type, or no assertive type, and it's just.

It's harder because they have more power, more energy and, but to have permission to call them out and say, Hey, we need to get some help. We'll keep you from getting stuck and so have the courage to, to get them into, to the counseling office. Okay. With that said, let's move now to the eights. What do you guys want to share about the eights?

What do you guys see?

Embracing the Power: Navigating the Intimidation and Progress Anxiety of Working with Enneagram Eights

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I love working with eights. Um, I didn't think I would because as a six, I can be intimidated by powerful frames, frameworks, words, energy, dominant energy, that kind of thing. But I, I really enjoy working with eights, but something Joanne said, I see it, you said around threes and I think it's similar with being able to describe, this is kind of what the counseling process is.

This is what you may be frustrated by, but just know that you can get through that. We're going to get to this kind of outcome. I feel like aides in my caseload are the most likely to wonder if we're making enough progress or if they have enough of a sense of our, are we doing the things we should be doing with our time or there's just a lot of that evaluative presence around outcomes, progress.

And so I think like you said, outlining some of the ups and downs of this a linear experience can be helpful to validate for them, but it isn't going to be, maybe that linear and so, um, to normalize that early. And empathize with that early.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Leslie, I love what you said about like, when it's coming to the room and the dominant energy, I know immediately when an eight comes to the room, because you, I feel that wave of intimidation.

Right. And you're like, okay, here we are. Right. Like, gotcha. Right. Like and, and then being able to, I think in my attachment work as a therapist, I understand that as this is. Take this as this is how people outside of this room can experience this individual. And this is an experience that they have, and they, and they have that experience of people reacting against this intimidation.

And that may be part of why they're coming into the room.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good Eden.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): In my experience working with eights, their future orientation is often what is giving them so much trouble, like within in relationships or even with themselves. Like they have a hard time like stopping. And pausing and attending to like their own physical pain or their own emotional pain because they're doing dominant they can like shut all that off and just like get the job done and move on to the next thing so that anything like any pain is often cannot be attended to.

And so. Having them slow down is really important and the thing that I see sometimes is like, we'll talk about a problem or an issue, especially an emotional one or something that's causing some kind of relational conflict. And then the next session, we don't talk about it again. And I'm like, Hey, we gotta go back around to that thing.

I know you've already moved on to, like, the next problem or the next issue, but like, this is, this is a big deal. We need to. We need to keep giving this attention, um, and they sometimes don't like that, but it is that, that future orientation. She's like, okay, well, that's done. And now I'm moving on. And now I'm going to get on with the next thing.

I also see them struggle a lot at work and like, it's the same struggle with authority, but there's this, I think, very different because they often don't see an authority figure that's worth following. And I think that's or that's doing the job that they think should be done. And so just that like conflict they see so much with their bosses or like their organization at large, doing the things that they don't agree with can often cause a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, um, a lot of just dissatisfaction.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, that's a good observation, Whitney. That you might be talking with an eight about, yeah, work dynamics, bosses, authority figures. That's really helpful. And going back to what you said, Eden, about the privilege of working up close with an eight and seeing some of their emotions and softer side that other people don't get to see that that was really sweet, the eights are, are so great when you can get up close, with them.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): My other son's a type eight. So yeah. You got a lot of energy in that house.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I have a counterphobic six son and an eighth son and I'm a heart type. So I'm just like, just, yeah, yeah. Are you thankful for me? Do you love me? Why are you, why are you mad at me? That's how my, that's how my conversations go.

I realized I'm very high maintenance when it comes to. Meeting, like, love and affirmation back when, yeah, that's good.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I think the action orientation of type eight forward movement for focus, not a whole lot of patience for the nitty gritty details that are like high level visionaries. Like, I just want this, let's get there.

Like what's in the way of why are you causing troubles? Like it's not complaining move. So in terms of like communication style with eights, I think this is a case for across all types when we're interacting with someone of a certain type, the more we double down in our own type, the more intense their patterns get.

On the other hand, if we move closer to them and act like they act generally, then that minimizes the polarization. So talking to an, a, you know, open chest, direct eye contact, like own your own power and engage them directly and get straight to the point. Don't explain a whole lot. Don't apologize. It's like, just.

Say the thing that needs to be said, say the action item, I think that would smooth out a lot of relationships just like off of that. Not all eights are angry all the time. I think that's a misconception. I think they're very big presence, very energetic, very intense. I think that maybe conflict, engagement, colliding with the eight is a form of intimacy.

So when other people pull away and they withdraw the aid, it's like, where'd you go? It comes after them. And then other people like, avoid the aid even further and that's a whole cycle. So, I think it's I think because opposites attract. Those who are in relationship with aids probably need to like, gear up and then actually own their power and strength.

And then the eight doesn't have to be as strong because someone else is doing it. Like even with like leadership, like eights don't sense that anyone else is like a good enough leader that they occupy the space. They don't themselves want to be the leader. And so I think in relationship context, that's a lot of where the eights patterns show up because relationships are in the blind spot of the eight.

And so I don't know if eights would readily. Here, like, in order for you to improve your relationships, therefore, you need to do X, Y, Z, because I don't know if they have the patience for that. But like speaking to them, like, if you want to make a bigger impact in your wife, then you have to know how to work with people.

And that is why it's important to work on relationships. It's kind of like coming in through the back door.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well put Joanne. Okay. Let's, we got to move on to type Nate nines, uh, our last type. So let's, let's do it. Let's finish the, finish the circle here. What do you guys have for type nines?

Waking Up from Numb: Exploring the Hidden Struggles and Somatic Symptoms of Enneagram Nines

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I'll jump in.

First off, my husband's a nine and the nines that I've interacted with in my office as well, there's such a loss of self that there's They they have no idea what they want or they want everything because everything sounds plausible right, and so there's there's kind of aimlessness. Maybe that's there.

I would also say that some nines may never even make it into the therapy office because their mental health symptoms become psychosomatic become enter their body instead of. Their, their mental health, it goes into a different category. So they're going to develop physical symptoms versus emotional symptoms.

I have nines that come in with like heart palpitations that develop or with digestive issues, and they're going to seek out support around that before they even come to a therapist, because that's the issue, not the emotions that have built up in their body.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great, Eden. Yeah. That makes total sense.

Not even being a therapist, knowing that nine suppress their anger, deny their anger, but it's got to go somewhere. And so you're saying it shows up in the body. That's that's really insightful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, they kind of want to avoid anything uncomfortable like uncomfortable emotions physical sensations Anything in relationships, it's uncomfortable.

They really will try to just not be present for it I had a client who gave me some really good analogies for nines and she was like It's like we play possum like something uncomfortable comes up and we're like, oh, bye They just kind of check out and they numb themselves so much. And so I think for nines, a lot of my work is just like honoring the feelings that they have instead of numbing the feelings they can be so hard to get to do any kind of like action oriented therapy work or like creating any kind of change.

So a lot of motivational interviewing. Again, you know, sometimes I have a lot of nines that show some like ADHD type symptoms. So there's a lot of kind of working through some of that. A good thing that I think it was, I think it was Joe Stabile. Suzanne's husband said one time that interesting relationship between nines and ones and anger and sadness, like when a nine is sad, they're actually angry.

And when a one is angry, they're actually sad. And so like nines do kind of tend towards more like depression or sadness. But when you really get down to it, they're probably actually really angry about something. And they've just never attended to that anger or like the boundaries that were violated or them not getting their needs met.

And so they're sad about it, but they're actually really angry. It's just so interesting to be. Kind of delving into that with them and a lot of the, like, kind of what Eden was saying, but also that more 10 tending towards depression do see quite a bit of suicidal ideation with nines as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. That that's.

Very powerful, Whitney, the feelings having come out in sadness, I can see that with some nines to talking a lot about painful experiences in the past and continuing, continuing to talk about them and bring them up over and over again, being sort of sad about it, but it just, this, a loop that never stops.

So that, that's really helpful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. And it's like their orientation to the past is how they define themselves. And so it's hard for them to just process through everything in the past so that they can move forward. They get really stuck. Like you were talking about.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): And great plug for ones too, to realize for yourself when you're angry, to realize that you're really sad so we can have more compassion on our ones.

That's. I've been hearing some things about nines I've never heard before. This is very, there's very helpful for me. Any last thoughts on type nines?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I will just say that I've been encouraging nines to do group therapy. The individual relationship can be really intense for nines cause they don't always want to do that deeper process work or they don't want to go to the anger, which they have to in order to process pain, but group work can feel a little bit like more collaborative and it can also feel like they have some shared space and it's not so intense. On them, and that maybe they can kind of build some camaraderie, with other people. And I've just seen some really big shifts when I've sent clients that are nines to do group work alongside our individual work.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, to piggyback off of that, I mentioned earlier that like therapy itself is a very four ish space, and the four is known as the individualist, and I think that's the opposite for nines. In like blending in and merging with something else to not be a self like usually people think of like sloth as lack of activity there's a lot of action focus.

So I think for nines, it's a disconnection from self like falling asleep to oneself Disconnecting from self agency. So I think of nines like a card neutral gear or as type three. That line is like being the gas pedal and the type six being the brake pedal. You need all three to have a functioning car.

And so inaction is itself an action. And often nine to like say in relationships where I work, find themselves being more kind of reactionary to what others around them do. Not knowing that are the reason why the pressure is applied to them is because they've disconnected from their own initiative Engine, and so I've heard that like the most powerful type in all the Enneagram types is actually type 9, not type 8, not type 1, not the more like assertively known types, but when a 9 taps into their internal world like you better get out of the way. There's no stopping them. So I think a lot of body work is pretty good for better for worse.

I think nines tend to be conduits for energy. Absorbing other people's stuff or absorbing nature's energy and I think in that sense body movement Might be a good way to metabolize some of the uncomfortable experiences more than like top therapy or mental or emotional work.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, tacking on to that, Joanne, I will point my nines to, um, spending time in nature, going to a park, sticking their feet in the earth, you know, having some way of connecting with that animal therapy, right?

Pets can be a powerful resource for nines and then body work too, those are, because there isn't, there's no perspective there to merge to, right? It feels safe in a way. Yeah.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And cause they spend so much of their time being hypervigilant and like assessing other people and perceiving and observing everyone else kind of looking out for conflict.

Like that goes right along with what you were saying, Eden, like if they can tune into their body or nature or animals, like they don't have to be hypervigilant. Be protecting themselves.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): And the hypervigilance is very draining, very draining.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Whitney, I'd heard Suzanne say on, maybe it was in a conversation with me, I can't remember now, I think we were going around and talking about different correlations she had seen with mental health and she'd said like nines, she saw a lot of nines with ADD.

Which is now falls under the ADHD umbrella. And so the non, is it the non attentive kind of ADHD? Is that how you say it? So that's just something to be, to be aware of, uh, when you're working with nines, if you're a therapist. Or like that combined type. To you know, you mentioned Whitney, they can play possum, which is really good, a good illustration.

And just like sixes kind of swing in the pendulum of phobic to counter phobic. Do you guys experience nines is sometimes swing on the pendulum from like playing possum to then making dramatic moves. Do you see any of that that's causing any issues to be aware of? Leslie, you're nodding your head. Can you speak to that?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, I think from session to session, I can see the inertia principle, like whether it's they've been in low energy and so there's tons of low energy in the session or they're in that inertia and there's lots of energy. And I, I think 9th, you know, both. They're one wing and just who they are, there's a lot of idealism.

And so sometimes I say this about nines, I don't know if I'm right, but it's like they can envision things in from a three space, but they can't carry them out. And so I'll see like big endeavors or big words without the work, but like big words about what's going to happen, what they're going to do, what they're going to tackle.

But I know they don't have the energy to match that. But we need to kind of titrate down to something that is doable so they can actually feel self esteem.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. That's helpful. I see some other people nodding, so I must agree with you, Leslie.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I usually at the end of every session with the nine, we have concrete goals that they're supposed to achieve between that session and the next one.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's so good. Whitney and I have, I have a type nine. Book club right now. And one guy just emailed me today saying that he had, he had read through it, but now being in a group with other nines, he's getting so much more out of it because they're challenging each other and spurring one another on.

And so I, I like what you guys said about maybe the group work, or even just being with you, being in a room with somebody else that can hold them accountable, set goals, like you just said, Whitney. That can be incredibly helpful for a nine. So if you're nine, just know that you don't have to do it, uh, by yourself or try to do, do it alone.

So yeah, that's really good. Okay, we're out of time. Please share where we can find you guys online, uh, any resources you want to point us to. Uh, let's, let's start with you, Whitney. I would love for people to continue to learn from you like, like I've learned from you today. So where can we find you?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, so my group practice is Bravehaven Counseling. We're in Richardson, Texas. Um, you can find our website. www.bravehavencounseling.com. And then on Instagram, our Instagram handle is @bravehavencounseling and my individual Instagram is @whitneylpc.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. And all the links you've already given me.

So I'll put them down in the show notes. So people can easily click on those. So you don't have to take any notes right now. Thank you, Whitney. What about you, Eden? Where can we find you?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So I'm counsel out of Charlotte, North Carolina, but I serve Texas and North Carolina when it comes to therapy work with individuals and couples and that practice is insideout collaborative.com. And then I also do attachment coaching with couples and individuals, outside of those States as well. So that there's a little bit about that at insideoutcollaborative.com, but also edenheider.com and my Instagram is @edenheider. And that podcast that has more attachment focused, material is Inside Out Podcast.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. Thanks, Eden. Leslie, remind us where we can find you again.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, just Leslie Bley Counseling. I have a team of therapists under me here in Austin. I'm also licensed in Missouri, so Texas and Missouri residents. If you're a therapist, you can find resources like Enneagram for Counselors and the Counselor Vitality Groups that are all on that same website.

And then I'm also enneagramconsultant.com for more professional use of the Enneagram with teams and companies that want that kind of lens for understanding their staff.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great. Thank you, Leslie. And thanks for all the, yeah, the work that you've been doing and creating community for other counselors and therapists, that's, that's been really beneficial, and Joanne, where can we find you?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, with my Enneagram therapist hat on, I'm in California in the Silicon Valley, and I have a freebie guide, The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types. because each of the types have different ways of dealing with the emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, and NUMB. I'm also a feelings translator on the side, and that's beyond the state of California as well.

And I built a school about feelings, and in a way that's not just for heart types. Uh, so that people of whatever types can recognize that emotions have a central spot in helping us be more well rounded. They have a logic of their own and there are some action items that go along with them. So, and you can find me at intelligentemotions.com or on Instagram @intelligentemotions.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Fascinating, a feelings translator, that's, that's incredible. And like feelings resource. That's why I appreciate having all of you on the, your different anywhere, you're going to have times, you're all have different strengths. And I just want to thank you for, for joining me.

I know it's really hard. You're all professionals. You have clients. It's hard to find a time to get us all together, but we did it. And I'm so thankful for you. And I know those watching are thankful as well to have learned from you. I know I learned from something, something from each of you guys that I didn't know.

Before, and so this was really helpful to me and I know it's helpful to the Enneagram enthusiasts out there, the therapists out there. So thank you so much for just carving out this space to be a blessing to so many people. And a reminder to those watching, make sure to go back and check out all the other panels today.

The heart types, the head types, so many great panels to listen to today to really get a feel for all the Enneagram types when it comes to their own. Personal mental health stories. So make sure to go and check those out today. And if you don't have time to watch all the panels today, you can get the all access past, which will give you lifetime access to all the panels and all the sessions and all the transcripts, for this whole, any summit.

So if that's interests you, make sure to go check out that, but so much for joining us today. Before you head over to the next interview, the next panel, remember to do two things, like seek support. And share compassion because you are not alone.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Enneagram Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s

Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) and Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) join Nikhil Sharma (AlignUs World) in a six part series to discuss the Enneagram.

In this six part series we give an introduction to each Enneagram Type, look at each of the Triads: Body, Heart, and Head, and discuss subtypes and instincts.

Watch the video below for Body Types (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part I)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part II)

• Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s

• Head Types - 5s, 6s, 7s

• Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

• Subtypes and Instincts

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Transcript

Nikhil: In today's topic, we'll be discussing the Enneagram Body Types, which are Types Eight, Nine, and One. We are lucky today to have our special guest, Ms. Joanne Kim, who is an Enneagram therapist at OliveMe Counseling and Feelings Translator at Intelligent Emotions. Joanne helps people discover their true self beyond their Enneagram Type and live out their Flow State. The Enneagram is an excellent resource for those who feel they're kind of stuck in the mud to help them awaken themselves, to be able to live their best life, and to pursue meaningful and loving connections as well as being able to pursue all of their professional hopes and dreams.

I'm a firm believer of the Enneagram as I became aware of this about a year ago when I was clearly at the lowest state of my life. Through the Enneagram, and through the entire process of understanding it better, it has allowed me to literally go from being a physician to being a tech entrepreneur. I truly feel without the Enneagram, as well as my support system, which also includes Joanne as she has worked a lot with me on my Enneagram Type, I would not have come this far. I'm truly grateful for her. And it's surely a pleasure to have her here today with us at the AlignUs Podcast. Welcome Joanne. Thank you for being with us.

Joanne: Glad to be here.

Nikhil: We hear this Enneagram word a lot or I’ve certainly asked a lot of people about it and there is some familiar with it. For those who are new to the podcast and haven't heard the previous episodes, can you give us a quick, 30 second elevator pitch about what the Enneagram is.

What is the Enneagram?

Joanne: Yeah, the Enneagram is an ancient personality framework that in a nutshell tells us nine different ways of seeing and interpreting and responding to life. So, the nine Types in the Enneagram are archetypes of the universal human experience in highlighting our reflexive autopilot patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing. Of course, there's a lot more diversity to the human race, but it helps us conceptualize things in a very compact yet comprehensive way.

I love it.

Nikhil: I'm with you on that. It's truly empowering. When I first picked up the Enneagram book that you gave me, I was like, wow, that's me right there. Like, how did you know all the way to like, knowing how my childhood was? I was just so taken back by how this system could literally know that much about you. From that I became an instant believer, and it truly is the best way, I feel, to have self-discovery.

Being that there's these nine Types, they break them down into the centers of intelligence or these three Triads, as they are often referred to. Can you describe for us the Triads and what emotions they are typically associated with?

Joanne: Yeah, so people think that we have one brain, we actually have three. We have the topmost brain, which is sometimes known as the human brain, the thinking brain. Then the middle brain, also known as the mammal brain. That's kind of the seat of all emotions. Then the lizard brain downstairs in the brainstem area. That's kind of where it manages everything that we do reflexively, without thinking, it just kind of happens, like pupil dilation, heart rate, things like that.

So, the Triads of the Enneagram. If you break the Enneagram diagram into three sections, there's the Gut Types, or sometimes known as the Body Types, and that corresponds with the brainstem. The Heart Types, Twos, Threes, and Fours correspond with the mammal brain or the limbic brain. Then the Head Types, Fives, Sixes, and Sevens correspond with the Head Types. Obviously, we have all three and so it's that we live as if we're only one of the nine or one of three centers, but we actually have the whole brain and the whole being. So, the point of the Enneagram is to find out our Type, not so that we can reinforce our Type, but for us to recognize that that's kind of, we assume that we are a lot less than we actually are. The point is to find out our Type as the starting point for us to learn how to grow beyond our patterns, namely, to take ourselves out of the box that we put ourselves into.

Nikhil: That makes a lot of sense. So, basically, when you find out what your Triad Type is, that is the Type that you are most comfortable with. The ones that we subconsciously revert to, our autopilot Type that comes out. But the important thing for our listeners and our audience to be aware of is to understand what all the different Types are, especially different Triads, so that you can use those as areas of growth. Especially because we're so commonly locked into what we are used to that need to be more aware of what can become and other aspects or how other people think. So, that's what I love about it.

Body Types

Joanne: Then you had a question about specifically Body Types. So, if you think about just generally in the Western world, there's a lot more room to focus on heady things like intellect, reason, logic, et cetera. Nowadays, we hear more about the more Heart Triad things like emotions, image, identity, relationships. But Body Types are probably the least familiar Triad out of all three, especially in the Western world, because the main currency or language of Body Types is energy. So, think about instincts, intuition, having a gut sense or a felt sense. Those are very nonverbal, but this is a very important arena by which we gather lots of information that would be hard to visibly pick out. It's kind of like an energetic experience, even animals sometimes will know when there's an earthquake or a hurricane coming. I think that's kind of a lot of what Body Types tend to live in more reflexively. It's not always a conscious experience.

Nikhil: Right. I feel as humans, we only think that we either react logically, with our brain or we react with our heart and our emotions. But there is a whole subset of individuals who process the information from the outside with their bodies and then react with that bodies’ or with that specific Type. So, it's really interesting to think that there really are three different ways of processing information. With the Body Triad I realized it's like you're reacting with your intuition and it's like instinctual.

Joanne: Yeah. So, I think with more openness towards things like yoga, or some of the Eastern traditions, we're now hearing more about it. But it's got to take, I think, several decades before it gets just as much airtime as like Brene Brown feeling type stuff, or obviously just like rationality and intellect like sciences and emphasis on things that are more concrete, more measurable, things like that.

Nikhil: Can you explain to us how there are emotions that are tied specifically to the Gut Type compared to the Heart Type and then the Head Type so that maybe our viewers and audience can see which Type they kind of mix with?

Joanne: Yeah. Let's start from the basic foundation that there are general groups of feelings, human basic emotions. If we just focus on the negative emotions, there's anger, sadness, and fear, and basically one per Triad. So, each of the Types within these Triads have a very specific relationship with those given emotions. So, the Gut Types, their main emotion center is around anger. Heart Types is around sadness, sometimes people call it shame. My good friend, Melinda, will be covering that in a different episode. And Head Types correspond with the fear center. Within each Triad one Type of the nine tends to go with the feeling, mainly they overdo the feeling. Another Type underdoes the feeling. The last one has a very complicated, sometimes chaotic, sometimes ambivalent relationship with that emotion. Obviously, we have the capacity to feel all the full range of emotions, but our specific Type will have a go-to-habit around that emotion that happens so instinctually that we won't even know that's what's driving us until like we get into trouble.

Nikhil: Right. So, with the Body Types, is it associated with rage and anger in the sense that they're not able to control a situation and that's what brings out the anger for them? Why is that specifically associated with the body?

Joanne: Well, I'm glad you use the word control because each Triad also has their corresponding themes and it just so happens that for Gut Types, the word control is one of the big ones. So, control, will, power, agency, action, a lot of forward movement or very active energies, that anger as an emotion tends to make possible. Anger as a negative emotion says that something I want or something I need isn't happening or there's something in the way. So, in a sense, it is a reaction to us not getting what we want or us being out of control and for some Types anger in its raw energy is the way to get past that.

Again, one of the Types within the Gut Triad tends to overdo anger. Type Eight will be the one that tends to overly rely on anger. Sometimes they're so expansive with their energy that they don't think that they feel angry. Everyone else feels like they are, but that one overdoes anger.

Type Nines underdo anger. They kind of disconnect themselves from it. And in the sense of control, they tend to be the ones who are so non-asserting of their own agenda.

Then Type Ones, that's the Type with the complicated relationship with anger. It's like they want to, but they don't want to. There's constant like back and forth.

Nikhil: It's kind of like Type Eights externalizes it. Type Nine, it's like they repress it or suppress it inside.

Joanne: They disconnect from it.

Nikhil: It's almost like when anger does come out, it sort of shocks them or it shocks others that it's all been repressed and disconnected with them.

Then Type One, they seem to internalize that, correct?

Joanne: Yeah. For Type Ones, I love this word, I think it's like a Spanish term called “ira”. My Enneagram teachers describe it as, I think that's probably where the word irate or irritation comes from. It's like the slow simmering behind the scenes anger, like this constant churning. Versus what people usually associate with the anger being like explosive, rageful, destructive. That's usually describing traits that come with a territory of Type Eight. And especially for Eights, they're not necessarily trying to be destructive, but they can forget what kind of actual impact that they have. Kind of like anger unleashed. That's what that is.

Nikhil: That's good. I like that. Anger unleashed.

We're having a great conversation here so far learning about the Body Types. We’re going to jump into just going over the different Types of the Body Types, Type Eight, Type Nine, Type One, and just learn a little bit about some of the good qualities about them. Some of the challenges that they have, especially when it comes to relationships as well as some of the areas we can use for growth.

Type Eight

Joanne: This will be a useful metaphor for all the Gut Types. I like to think about all Gut Types, with the emphasis on control and agency, as a car, just a different feature of a car.

I like describing Eights as cars with no breaks. It's all gas pedal and it's all go. It's all energy, all forward movement. How this shows up in life is that as soon as they want something Eights will go for it without even thinking about whether the delivery or the execution is appropriate or the intensity with which they seek something is helpful or useful or what asked for.

In a typical day to day situation of how that's very useful is that Eights tend to be very good at big picture, visionary thinking, like high CEO, big boss level. They don't like being stuck in the weeds. They don't have the patience or the time for that. What their strengths are is whenever there is a situation that requires big, effective, wide scale action you call Eight to come and take charge. The downside though is that they're not always in a situation where they are the rightful authority or the rightful person to take big effective actions.

One big arena where Eights get into trouble is, for example, at work. They might be working on a project with other people but whoever's above them, namely their boss or manager, if Eights don't think that the manager is doing a good job, sometimes they can actually take over because they might feel stifled or like they're being slowed down. There's a lot of impatience that can happen with coworkers. So, when Eights sense that the rightful authority is not doing their job correctly, according to the Eights perspective, Eights often can take over in their ego and end up steamrolling over other people.

From an energetic standpoint this is still very effective in that it gets a lot of work done, but there's a lot of dead bodies in their wake. I think relationships personally and professionally can suffer a lot when the Type Eight ego is not tamed because the Type Eight resists being tamed at all costs.

Nikhil: It's like when they feel like once they processed all the information and they have it in their mind that they're right. What they're going to do is the right way to do things. There's no other possible way of doing things. They're just going to move them forward with whatever their thought process is, and nothing can stop them.

Joanne: Right. It's like, my truth is the Truth. Capital “T” Truth. Also let my will be done. All y'all get out of the way otherwise, you're going to get stomped.

Nikhil: Like I’m coming through. You don't want to hear, your headphones are on, like you are just moving forward.

Joanne: Yeah. Like a bull sees red. Like you better get out of the way of Type Eight.

You know, a car without brakes, the only way for the car to stop is if it hits something. So, often that's what, like getting fired from a job, a relationship breakup, often those major life circumstances are what finally catches the Eights’ attention in getting them to stop because they didn't impose limits from within themselves.

Limits are imposed on them.

Nikhil: It seems like they can turn very toxic very quickly, those Types of relationships.

Joanne: Yeah. I mean, I will say all nine Types have their own way of being toxic. It's probably the easiest to peg Type Eights as being so because their patterns are the most obvious. They're the most expressive.

In that sense, the growth path for Type Eights is to recognize that brakes exist. Brakes are necessary. It's not all about the gas pedal and we need to learn how to use the brakes so that the car can function well.

Nikhil: I feel like it's important not just for Eights, but all types of personalities, but okay, yeah, definitely Eights, to once we start creating these thoughts and emotions into our head or especially thoughts it's good for us to do some self-reflection prior to us putting our action plan forward. I feel like practicing any type of self-reflective, whether it's meditation, journaling, just taking a moment to pause to make sure that, hey, these seem like the right thoughts. I've thought about this for some time and yes, all right. I think I'm going to need to move forward with this. There may be some naysayers about it, but I feel like I've taken the appropriate steps to make the best overall decision. So that was great. That's Type Eight. What about Type Nines?

Type Nine

Joanne: Type Nines would be like a car that is on neutral gear. Forgets that they have a gas pedal, forgets that they have brakes. Let's just keep things neutral, keep things chill. If someone pushes me from behind, I'll keep my momentum going. If something stops me from the outside, I'm just going to stop and stay stopped. So, Nines sometimes they're known as The Mediators, Peacemakers, Harmonizers, and it's easy to think that that's what they intentionally do. But again, it's all reflex. The main reason why Nines end up taking on those positions is so that they don't exert the gas or brake pedal. There's a resistance towards exercising choice, freedom, action, agency, and it's like it's too much work. It's too much energy. I want to just take whatever path of least resistance I can. A lot of that is to go along with someone else's agenda or an already established pattern. So, Nines in a lot of ways are the opposite of Eights. Eights tend to be very unleashed and unrestricted. Nines tend to just disconnect from their gas tank altogether and I'm just going to go with whatever has already been done. It's a very low energy, whereas Eights are sometimes known to be larger than life.

Nikhil: Very domineering Types, right?

Joanne: I guess the toxic trait of Nines, because often people think that they're super sweet and super mellow and they are, they're very chill. But often the people who will be complaining about Nines are partners and coworkers because there's an under exercising of one's voice. Nines are very good at seeing through the eyes of everyone else, except for them. That's one thing that makes them great team builders and mediators in helping smooth out the rough edges so that there's a lot more harmony within the group, but they often forget themselves and they don't include themselves in the picture. It'd be fine for a group project and whatever helps to move that forward. But when it comes to more individualized experiences, like marriage, it creates a lot of problems. It's like those who are in relationship with Nines are like, I feel like I'm married to a shell. There's no person here. I have a physical body, like the lights are on and no one's home. That would be a common source of stress in Nines underly exercising their rightful power.

Nikhil: So, what can they do specifically to help expand or really be a little more assertive?

Joanne: It's to recognize that they have a gas and a brake pedal. That there are some things that they actually do want as a reflection of their individuality. That they go for what they want, even if it means bumping up against other people and also recognizing when is the time to stop because of one's own voluntary decision instead of being stopped just because of momentum or circumstances. Sometimes Nines might procrastinate because they can't choose between all these different options. They all feel equal because they're so disconnected from their individual sense of self and their own values. So, the big growth step for Nines is to reconnect with one's own core, to see oneself as an individual, and to put forth the individual in the world instead of just being a wallflower.

Nikhil: Right, it's kind of like they need to establish or discover what their character strengths are, what their values are, and just spending more time in self-awareness and self-discovery. From those anchors and foundation, they can move forward and make decisions based on things that will actually benefit them in ways. I feel like a lot of them probably have a lot of built-up resentment in some ways because when you agree and you're this total people pleaser or making sure everyone is always feeling good and not in any argumentative ways I feel like there's a lot of anger that starts building up. Because you didn't have the guts to bring what you felt needed to be done to the forefront because you wanted to keep the peace.

Joanne: Yeah, I think Nines would probably have a hard time getting in touch with their resentment because it's like the anger is so locked up in there. It's like Pringles like, one, two, pop, you can't stop. So, there's that deep fear that once Nines get in touch with their anger, they won't know how deep that tank goes. So, before Nines think about just how resentful they are, it might be more of just how tired they feel, just how uncomfortable they feel with discomfort. How much it stresses them out when they think about talking to someone or bringing up a request or pushback. Starting from that fear place as a way of getting connected with the emotions and then how eventually coming across anger and then that takes a lot of deeper work.

Nikhil: It's amazing how any uncomfortability in most humans automatically resorts us to get scared and then run back to what makes us feel comfortable. We see that when people have difficulty leaving their marriages, leaving relationships, leaving jobs, it just goes on and on, but all that uncomfortability it can start presenting itself, it manifests itself on our body and we tend to start feeling and acting in erratic ways. So, we don't like that. Then we will just go back to what makes things peaceful and comfortable until we kind of explode.

What I've learned up in this process has been when my body is telling me something, whether I'm having neck pain or having issues in my stomach that means for me, hey, Nik, you're having some stress that's going on in your life. You need to kind of delve into what your body is telling you. It's important for us to not ignore the signs that our body lets us know. The body does keep the score. So, it's very important for us to be in tune with our body and have all Triads being in tune with each other. That's the ultimate success.

Joanne: They're called body ties for the reason that the physical body is itself one of the best ways to gather information and also to digest them. So, for both Eights and Nines and Ones, whenever they are feeling any kind of tension in their body, whatever the emotion is, eventually it's good to process and tease that out. But if right then and there is not the best time for them to be doing that kind of work, find some way to release that pent up energy. For Nines, especially because they can often go numb, in moving their body until they can feel connected with it again.

Nikhil: And then we have the Type Ones. How are they typically presenting themselves?

Type One

Joanne: Yes, Ones are the cars with the emergency brake on all the time. So, despite how much gas they push, there's a lot of precious energy that turns into heat and irritation because it's kind of chafing against the emergency brakes. The big thing about Ones is that kind of like Eights, they tend to be very outward focused in releasing their energy. Ones have that ambivalent connection with their anger. Which is an outcome of their repressed desire. It's like desire wants them to move forward, but then the Type One structure pulls them back into repression. There's a lot of energy, precious energy that gets lost in things like perfectionism, irritation, obsessing over details. Eights are like the big sledgehammers. They're like, I just want to focus on the big picture. I don't want to deal with the details. Ones are like scalpels, exactly the opposite. They overly focus on the details to the point of missing the big picture. Like with scalpels they're very delicate instruments that you use them a couple of times, and it gets very blunt very quickly. Ones need to recognize just how many opportunities they miss out on, because they're focusing on the fine tune details at their own expense and mistrusting their own desires, assuming that their own desires are impure or bad and repressing them so much that they're actually kind of extinguishing their own life force.

On the surface, Ones look very put together, focus on right or wrong type of stuff and often we judge them for being very judgy. But what people don't know about Ones is that there's a lot of pain and suffering they experience because they can't help it but to restrict themselves and also end up restricting others. So, Eights underdo control and they overdue anger or outward energy. Nines disconnect from their own sense of self control by going with other people's agendas or what's already been established. Ones overexert control and end up extinguishing their life force.

So, the growth path for Ones involves letting go of the emergency breaks because they still have breaks that they can voluntarily step on. Take turns pushing the gas, pushing the brakes, based on what's happening in that moment, instead of pre-establishing the brakes for forever.

Nikhil: Yeah, this is all amazing stuff here, Joanne. Hopefully our listeners and our audience have, despite if you're not a Body Type, that's the whole thing, it's for us to better understand the different Types that are out there and then being able to try to improve upon where we feel that we may not be the best in and especially being able to use this as a resource for that.

As we're kind of coming to the end of the conversation, is there a takeaway that you can give the audience and the viewers to go home with and then something that they can try to use starting this week to help them along in their personal growth journey?

Growth Tips

Joanne: As I mentioned earlier, all the nine Types are archetypes of the universal human experience. So, we're supposed to resonate with at least a little bit of everything, but one tends to stand out the most, because that's what we're used to. Often people can defend their own personality Types, but that actually is reinforcing the ego that's keeping us trapped.

So, if any of the three Types, Eights, Nines and Ones really triggered you today, then chances are it's either because that might be your Type or the Type of a close one, a loved one in your life. Sometimes that might be because that Type is in your shadow. So, if whatever I mentioned today does resonate with you, if you're an Eight, reinforce some of the breaks. If you're a Nine, practice pressing the gas and brake pedals. And then if you're Type One, let go of the emergency brakes.

If you're in relationship with any of those Types, recognize that a lot of our patterns are reflexive. We don't do this on purpose. We don't even know that we're doing it. So, instead of judging any of the Types, be curious and be more open about asking what each person's individual experience is.

Maybe the reason why any of those Types might be driving you crazy is because maybe that's what you're supposed to do yourself on purpose. So, maybe you can learn from whoever is of whichever Type.

Nikhil: And just remember, I think people don't realize, and I didn't realize this recently, is that our personality Types were developed at a very young age for us. Literally in childhood. They were developed as a survival method for us to be able to grow up in the environment that we were in. However there came a point in our life where we have grown up and that personality trait has kind of caged us in, whether the good parts of that personality and then the bad parts of it, and it's up to us to realize how to break ourselves free from that mold that was created for us at a very young age. That's why I love the Enneagram and the model, because it not only helps us, but you’re also giving us vital information about who we are, it helps us develop strategic plans of action that we can use to slowly start breaking ourselves from those shackles I want to say that were built throughout our whole entire life.

Joanne: There's enough suffering in the world as it is. Let us not reinforce that by going with our egos and summon whatever compassion we can for ourselves and also other people. This is hard work. And this may be one of the hardest things we ever do is to recognize our own autopilots that we don't even know is there and to grow beyond that. All that means is we are all venturing into very unfamiliar, scary territory and we can use all the support we can get.

Nikhil: That's right. Step by step. There will be people along this journey who, when you start changing, can say things to you out of projection because you're changing. That might make you feel a certain way inside and make you feel like you have to revert back to being who you were. But just remember, like Joanne said, personal growth is a journey. It can be very hard. It can be uncomfortable. But usually in that discomfort, you're usually going along the right path. It's just about surrounding yourself with the right people who will support you on that path. It's truly a beautiful journey. I can speak only for myself, but it has truly transformed who I am. It's because of the support system that I have surrounded myself with.

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About Dr. Nikhil Sharma & AlignUs

I’m Dr. Nikhil Sharma, founder of AlignUs and for the last 10 years I had dedicated my life to working with patients with liver failure due to alcohol or obesity, who suffer from addictions and was a part of their rehabilitation process and helping them to get to a new liver and a second chance at life. During that period, I thought to myself, what if we could prevent people from suffering major physical health issues by helping them heal from their traumas and improve their mental health?

So, I created AlignUs where our mission is to inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy through compassion, connection and competition.

AlignUs creates a high vibrational atmosphere that involves self-care, physical competition and charitable donations. AlignUs will revolutionize how we do philanthropy in this digital age, while making it fun and rewarding to help each other.

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What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Enneagram Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) and Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) join Nikhil Sharma (AlignUs World) in a six part series to discuss the Enneagram.

In this six-part series we give an introduction to each Enneagram Type, look at each of the Triads: Body, Heart, and Head, and discuss subtypes and instincts.

Watch the video below for Heart Types - Types 2s, 3s, and 4s (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part I)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part II)

• Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s

• Head Types - 5s, 6s, 7s

• Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

• Subtypes and Instincts

Downloadables

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Transcript

Nikhil: Today we have a great topic, the Enneagram Heart Triad. We are welcoming back a special guest, Melinda Olsen who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, founder of Inviterra Counseling, and co-founder of Havenly Counseling Collective.

Welcome Melinda. Great to have you back here with us today.

Melinda: Thanks. So happy to be here.

Nikhil: Before we get started, do you mind just giving us a little bit of background about the work that you do?

Melinda: I'm an Enneagram Therapist. I'm an Enneagram obsessed person. Enneagram Two. So, I interweave that with all of my therapeutic work.

I like to bill myself as your resident Enneagram Therapist because I really love helping people go deeper into their Enneagram work beyond what the Types are. I really think that the Enneagram is just a transformative tool and I think it creates such a beautiful path toward transformation. When we're on that path we might not look the same as we did in the very beginning in terms of what our Type is. I love watching that process.

I'm also obsessed with creating community and care for helpers, for people who care for others and then just for my community at large. So that's what I'm obsessed with.

Nikhil: We can tell you’re very, very passionate. That's beautiful.

Thank you for being here with us today. Before we dive right into the Heart Triads for those that are new to the podcast and new to the Enneagram, do you mind giving us a quick overview of what the Enneagram is and what the Triads are?

What is the Enneagram?

Melinda: Yeah. In its most simple form, the Enneagram is just a personality descriptor. Numbers One through Nine. Every number describes a particular autopilot personality or particular coping mechanisms that we all do, constellations of coping mechanisms. So, when we talk about how we cope through life, get what we feel like we're needing, every Type does that differently. One of the ways that the Enneagram is divided, or split is into what you call Triads. We have three Types per Triad.

We have the Body Triad, which is Eights, Nines, and Ones. They tend to jam around anger, the emotion of anger.

We have Heart Types, which are Twos, Threes, and Fours. I'm a Two and we tend to deal with things like sadness and shame. That's what we tend to organize around.

Then you have the Head Types, which Nik, I know you are. We have Fives, Sixes, and Sevens. We call that the Fear Triad. That’s the Head Triad, the Fear Triad.

Every Triad has different themes that they have to navigate as they're on their transformational journey and different coping mechanisms that they lean into in order to get what their personality really thinks that they're needing. 

Nikhil: That's very well said.

I know you have such a great bond with this specific Triad. Like you said, you are a Type Two. Why don't we go over it? The Heart Triad, there are a lot of shame-based emotions. That shows up a little bit differently in each one of these Types. Why don't we start with Type Two and talk a little bit about how that goes with them?

Type Two

Melinda: I like to talk about shame and sadness, and that's a Beatrice Chestnut addition that I really support.

Type Two, they tend to be called “The Helpers”, but I like to kick that out the window because I think that that's a total stereotype. I think they're “Befrienders”. Two's autopilot is all about getting you to like me. Getting you on my side, getting you on board with loving me because I'm so great in whatever way I try to be great, so that people will love me. So that people will be on my side, give me what I'm needing. Twos really try to get what they're needing indirectly by making other people feel positively about them in whatever way that they organize around. That's really the theme of the Two.

One of the ways that happens is helping other people. But that's not the only way, and definitely not every type of Two does that. It could be through what we call seduction, like classic seduction. It could be through being nice and sweet and kind. It could be through bringing you a casserole. It could be through being very competent. It doesn't matter. But either way, we really are obsessed with making other people like us. We live our lives outside of ourselves, so we don't understand our own hearts and our own needs because we're so focused on other people's needs. That's really one of the issues of Enneagram Two.

Nikhil: So, you guys kind of have this feeling where if there's some sort of rejection or something along those lines where you don't feel you're good enough at times. Is that right?

Melinda: Yeah. All the time.

I feel like that might be almost in our shadow or subconscious. I think some of us are really aware of that but others of us are not. So, oftentimes we operate in the world thinking we know better how to help and care for other people. Sometimes we're operating in this pride space, but at the bottom of that, as we're trying to be in whatever way, more than who we are, more special, more significant, more likable, what we really don't come into much contact with, but definitely is running the show, is this feeling of not being good enough. Which is why sad and shame are something that Twos really struggle with.

Nikhil: I've gone through those feelings as well, that not feeling good enough. Again, for people that are out there, it doesn't matter what your Type is, you will likely experience something from each Type and each personality, each Triad. You’re supposed to, like an ideal version of somebody would be someone who has a balanced Head, Heart, and Body Type. So, anyone that's listening today, you could be likely picking up stuff like, that really resonates with me. Which is good because likely there's something that's going to be resonating with everybody.

I often think about, especially that or where I don't feel good enough then I think about not good enough for who, where is this good enough feeling coming from? What are we comparing this to and it's something that's been ingrained in us from a very young age that society has been structured. Like there's these “laws” that there aren't even real laws, right? But it's something that's just made up. What's great about this self-discovery journey is that when you realize that each individual is on their own little path and it's up to us to own that path and go your own way that's when the real awakening occurs. You start feeling different. That feeling of not feeling good enough, it starts to dissipate a little bit, I would say. There's a lot of parts of me that I do enjoy. So, it's nice to start understanding that.

But Twos, they really want to help please people. It makes them feel good.

Melinda: Yes. It makes them feel good and needed and significant.

Nikhil: How can Twos help balance that aspect out for themselves?

Melinda: Great question. Love that. That's the best.

One of the major themes, because Twos are such outward oriented Types, we focus on other people. The gravity of our existence is on others. So, if you think about gravity, almost like a blanket with something heavy on it. It's almost like we roll toward the thing that has the most gravity. Part of a Two's work is to flesh themselves out authentically, so they have more gravity. So, they start to focus more internally on themselves and what they need. Actually, I have this by my desk because like I said, I'm a Two. For viewers out there, I'm holding up a picture of a single dot and a very elaborate squibble. The single dot underneath says, “what I wanted to need” and the scribble is, “what I need”. Basically, it's just what we think we need is so simple but what we really need is incredibly elaborate and Twos are not in touch with that. So, shifting that gravity towards ourself, going internal, understanding our own feelings, dreams, thoughts, all of that is part of the work that I do with Twos. It's really shifting that gravity towards ourselves.

Nikhil: And it's like, again, when we feed more into ourselves, when we understand more of who we really are, we're better able to help others. You know what I mean? In a more sustained manner. It's really incredible when you can understand that, like the people start thinking, oh, you're being selfish or you're doing this. No, it's more like, hey, I'm trying to spend some time getting to know myself a little bit better so that I can show up better, not just for myself and for my family, for all those that are connected to me.

Melinda: Absolutely. And that's really the point. A lot of Twos do fear that this is such a selfish thing to do. But what I like to point out to them is in personality, like in your autopilot, the things that you're doing in order to care for other people, yeah, that's partially pure, but let's be honest. It's an indirect way of getting people to meet our needs and that's not actual generosity. Everybody thinks Twos are so generous. We are not, we are not. It's not because it's all a ploy to get our needs met when we don't know what they are. So, it's a very difficult web we weave.

Nikhil: Yeah, there's a little bit of manipulation maybe that's there.

Melinda: Yes, absolutely. That's a whole thing. I think when we shift our focus to understanding what we need, and that can be hard because Twos, experience our emotions like a roller coaster. It's a very chaotic experience inside. So, we feel feelings, but we don't tend to really know or understand why they come up or what's happening or when they're going to come up. So, the image I bring up for Twos that seems to really resonate is being on a roller coaster blindfolded. You experience all the feelings, but you don't know when the drop is or when all the turns are. We have to get to know our insides to get off the roller coaster, to really understand our feelings, and then understand what we need. And be direct about it instead of manipulating others to get that met when we might not even know what those needs are.

Nikhil: Well said.

So now, how does shame and these emotions show up for a Type Three?

Type Three

Melinda: Great question. Type Three. We can go over, just to talk a little bit about Type Three, if that's all right. Type Threes are outward oriented Types as well, just like Twos. Actually, there are a lot of similarities, but Threes are very “go-get-‘em”, action oriented because what they want is approval. They're going for success. They're going for applause. They're going for approval. Like, yeah, you're the best! Go Type Three! You rock! That's what they're living for. Whereas for Twos, that's really love, being liked, for Threes it really is more about being seen as successful.

What Beatrice Chestnut says around Threes is, emotions, they kind of get in the way for Threes to being that successful self. They like to be very efficient, to get stuff done, to be successful. So, they tend to shuck them out the window. Threes underdo emotion. They underdo sadness and shame. If you asked a Three what's your experience of shame and sadness, they'd be like, I don't know. That's what I find in my practice. You'll find Three is working really hard to get that approval.

Nikhil: They like to be admired. Is that what you would say?

Melinda: Yeah, yeah. It's like the admiration applause.

Nikhil: That’s kind of how they kind of show up. How can they better balance themselves to be able to feel some more emotion.

Melinda: I think first of all, because Threes work, they're the workaholics of the Enneagram. They're action oriented. They move quick, quick, quick. They want to make sure that they're getting shit done. They really need to start slowing down. Being unproductive for a Three, though hard, is incredibly important. Like, starting to slow down, because they can't even get in touch with their internals. They can't even get in touch with their insides if they're going so fast. That's torture for a Three, but all growth paths are torture. It really is about tuning inside to their actual desires instead of focusing so much on what will get them admired. Does that make sense?

Nikhil: It does make sense.

Melinda: So, I think slowing down to actually tune into themselves, asking questions like, do I really like this thing? Do I really like to do that? I don't know. What are my hates? What are my likes? What does that really mean? What is my true goal in life? How do I really want to live? Is it really for the admiration of others or doing these things? I might not even enjoy breaking my neck doing it, or is there a different way? And in that slowing down, they start to make more contact with their very sensitive hearts.

Nikhil: Again, it goes back to coming back into your inner self. Focusing on what it is that you want. Oftentimes our autopilot, as you said earlier, can be go, go, go, go. I want to be admired. This is the way it's supposed to be. Supposed to be for who? For what? There are times where I feel like I've been in that mode where I'd want some admiration and I think that's okay. It's okay to have some of that. It's all balanced. It's realizing is it coming truly from within that this is something that I've worked hard for and I am appreciating the admiration that I'm getting or am I doing everything just for admiration purposes.

Melinda: Yes, absolutely. And Threes are so good at tuning into whatever community they're a part of deems successful. Like either their family, or whatever communities there in, but do they actually think, the Three themselves, did they actually think that that's what success means or success looks like? Again, it is tuning into that inner self instead of working so hard to get that outside admiration.

Nikhil: All right.

Can we talk a little bit about the Type Four personality?

Type Four

Melinda: Yeah. Love Type Fours, as well. They’re all great. I love them all. I mean, I'm a Heart Type. I love them all.

Nikhil: Yeah, it's good. It's important because again, when we're most balanced, we have a little bit of each in us, right? So, you're just loving yourself. That's all.

Melinda: Yeah.

Fours, they cut a little different than Twos and Threes. Whereas Twos and Threes are outward oriented, Fours are very inward oriented. They tend to have a fairly good idea about how they feel, precisely how they feel. They tend to focus more on their internals, but not all of their internals, just the parts that they don't think are great, or the emotions that are suffering emotions. They tend to focus inward and really focus on things that might be wrong with them, ways that they're not good enough, or things that other people have that they wish they did but don’t. It's this longing. Fours experience this deep longing.

The internal experience for Fours, and that internal churn is very different than Twos and Threes. They shut out the outside world and focus inward. I think the reason that they do that is because they want to differentiate themselves. They feel different. They're “The Individualists”. So, they feel very different. They want to set themselves apart. Or often feel set apart.

Nikhil: What are some areas in there that that they can use or to try to help in their growth and development?

Melinda: The thing about Fours, Fours are probably the most therapized group of the Enneagram. First, I'm going to say that.

Nikhil: What are the Four known as?

Melinda: “The Individualists”.

Nikhil: That's exactly what I was thinking.

Melinda: I think. Does that resonate for any Fours you know?

Nikhil: Yeah, it does. That resonates with several Fours that I'm associated with, for sure.

Melinda: It makes sense, right? Every theme is around, if we think about that shame and sadness, it comes out in different ways. For Fours, and they're not thinking that they're good enough, they set themselves apart or aside and want to work to be special on an individual level. So, I'm special because I'm different, or me being different makes me special. That's kind of what they turn into. So, it can be really hard for a Four. They're the ones that have the most distinctive experiences of sadness and shame and probably the most direct experiences of sadness and shame, so much so that they have a hard time getting out of those feelings. They favor those feelings as opposed to maybe more positive feelings like hope or joy. They overdo those feelings.

To answer your question about growth, one of the first things that needs to happen is this recognition that their internals might not be 110% accurate in terms of how the world is and who they are in the world. They need to start balancing their internals with the people in their lives that care about them and what they say. There's a way in which the gravity needs to shift a little more balanced between external and internal feelings of who they are and how they define themselves because they think they're really negative. In fact, they're human beings and they're both beautiful and have issues like the rest of us and they tend to focus on the issues instead of the beauty. So, they need to start integrating that in.

Nikhil: I think we have a good understanding of the individuals, how each Type individually presents themselves.

A lot of our lives are based on relationships. Each individual at times, when we're in relationships, there's unhealthy qualities that can be exhibited. So, each one of these, especially being that they're part of the Heart Type and they're thinking with their emotions, what are some things that these Types need to be aware of when they're in relationships? That they can identify that, hey, there's something not right here, so that they can maybe take a step back, just being aware of some key factors or key traits that they tend to exhibit when they're unhealthy relationship patterns.

Unhealthy Relationship Patterns

Type Two

Melinda: Yeah. The biggest thing I see for Twos is just too much focus on their relationships. They will just focus all their energy on their partner or people and to the detriment of themselves. It can cause some issues. Because they're going to try to help people in ways that the person never asked for and then Twos start to get resentful. Like I helped you in all these ways and you're not even grateful. And I'm like, well, did they ask for that help? Resentment is something that you need to work on internally for yourself. It usually means you've overextended your boundaries or allowed somebody to cross your boundaries.

Nikhil: Can you say that again? Because that was beautiful.

Melinda: Resentment is something that you need to work on yourself because usually what that means is you've crossed your own boundaries or allowed somebody to cross your boundaries.

For Twos who live in resentment a lot, we need to understand that we need to create boundaries and not cross them to help others or care for others or go outside of ourselves. That happens so much in relationships. It's like you do it without even thinking. Then you look behind you and you're like, oh, that was a boundary. I only know that because I'm pissed that they didn't care for me right in the way that I wanted them to.

Nikhil: I think it's important like, we know when resentment starts building up in us and it's oftentimes that we just stuff it down inside. Then we think it's going to be okay or that happens in marriages or that's normal, you know what I mean. I was thinking about that.

It's like people just often think that it's normal. This is what goes on. The problem is what I've realized as I've grown up and I realized, no, Nik, that is only happening in your small subset group of friends and family that you're surrounding yourself with. There is a big world out there. There's 6 billion people. You realize that what you think is like that's okay to occur. Our thoughts are not necessarily true. We need to think about that for one second, realize all your thoughts aren't necessarily true. When we realize that, we can move forward with, hey, maybe something needs to change or, this isn't normal because I shouldn't be feeling like this for this prolonged period. Where did I learn that this is normal? Again, we learn what normal is through our immediate circle and our families and how we grew up. It doesn't mean it was the right way for you. We change and we're supposed to.

Melinda: That's the biggest thing I see with Twos, and I've experienced that too. So hopefully that helps some of your Two listeners.

Nikhil: Then how about our Type Threes?

Type Three

Melinda: So, usually I only see Threes in therapy for two reasons. One, they've either burned out or two, their partner, spouse, whatever has hauled them into therapy. When that happens it's usually because the Three is not really in contact with their feelings. They're working too much. They're really trying to be that successful person, but they're not tuned into their EQ, their emotional IQ in order to connect with their partner.

Usually, I'm seeing Threes have a really hard time, connecting relationally, even though they're Heart Types, even though they're so sensitive. They have a very hard time getting to that emotional nurturing level and that kind of emotional ability to hear their partner and connect in that way. That's usually what I find with my Threes and relationships. It's really hard.

Nikhil: That makes sense.

Then we have our Type Fours.

Type Four

Melinda: Type Fours, again, the most therapized Type on the Enneagram. I see them a lot in relationships when they're so focused inward it's hard for them to tune into their partner. Interestingly. So, if their partner has a different experience or something else going on, it's very hard for the Four to step outside of themselves enough to navigate that with them or to understand that experience. Now, Fours are great at not being judgmental. I think that's something I've noticed about Fours that I love. But it really is that piece about that lack of outward oriented-ness that tends to be an issue.

The other thing I see a lot is it's hard for them to step out of their own shame and their own sadness. That's usually what they're stuck in. Say a partner says, “Hey, I'm having a really hard time when you do X.” A Four could be like, “Oh, I did X? Oh, I'm a terrible person. There's something wrong with me. Why do I always do that?” Downward, downward, downward. What happens? The person who brought that need forward gets lost. They get lost in the Four just spiraling downward and inward. That is a dynamic I see a lot with Fours in relationships.

Nikhil: Relationships are a big deal. Obviously how we're showing up every day for ourselves it's important for us to have these tools of being aware of how our interactions are with others. It's important for our partners and others that we're associated with to understand who we are so we can better communicate, interact, and have more fulfilling conversations, more fulfilling relationships.

For all those that are listening out there, yes, it's important for you to understand who you are, but hopefully you're also picking up some traits of people that are around you and understanding like maybe that's why mom acts this way. Maybe I need to communicate with her like this or be more patient with her when she's stressed now, I know how she is at a certain type of way.

It's just all beautiful stuff I feel, the more we learn. It's not that you're necessarily going to learn every little detail. You're not going to necessarily figure out what your Enneagram Type is today per se, but hopefully you're figuring out some things about yourself and how you're showing up in a certain way. Then that just helps you progress and improve and helps balance yourself because that really is the goal. And these days, especially with poor mental health being on the rise. It's important to understand that the times and society is changing and there's something going on where more and more people are being affected in a negative kind of way.

Instead of us hoping for change to come from somewhere outside, it's never going to come, it's got to come within us. Each individual. It starts with yourself. And if you can optimize who you are, because you are the CEO of your own body, you can only control your thoughts, your emotions, your actions. That's it. There's nothing else that you can control. But if all of us started doing that that would amount to tremendous change. There's been more of a push now, right? For each individual to start focusing on their own mental health and their mental being. We often work out all the time. We get our muscles all big and do all that, but we're not focusing on mental fitness enough and that comes first with becoming more aware of who we are.

That's why all these self-discovery techniques, and obviously we are big homers of the Enneagram and that as a method for that. You probably see why we do love it so much and are passionate about it because it's very easy to see yourself in each one of these types of situations.

One other thing we wanted to touch on was because mental health has become more of a crisis, people are becoming more and more stressed. Each individual acts in a certain way when they are stressed. So, with each one of these Types, can you go over some of the traits that they need to be aware of when adversity hits them and how they tend to respond and maybe how they can improve that a little bit for themselves?

Enneagram Types & Stress

Melinda: What I've experienced is that every Type, they kind of experience some adversity until they hit a wall that makes change necessary. So, I'm going to describe how people look before they hit the wall.

Type Two

For Twos what happens is they grow in that resentment we were talking about. They get angrier and angrier. They're on that rollercoaster internally or number inside, sadder, or they kind of go into deflation with that shame. That starts to grow and grow and grow. And they're on that roller coaster with a blindfold. They're like, I have all these feelings and I'm so resentful. I read somewhere that Enneagram Twos can look like that nagging mother when they're in a very unhealthy state. That is definitely a space that Twos can get into. Then they tend to get into a lot of controlling behaviors, like controlling other people.

They tend into that Eight a little. They can tend into the Four as well, where they feel a lot, but they also go into the control of the Eight. Kind of manipulating people to do their will. When people aren't meeting their needs, the resentment grows until eventually something breaks. Then they end up in my office, or their kid is like, you need to go to therapy or we're cutting contact. It can get really dramatic depending on how long it takes for the Two to tune into themselves.

Nikhil: And Type Threes?

Type Three

Melinda: Type Threes, again, I find that they just numb out. They do more and more. The Threes that land in my office I find right beforehand, they've either experienced a hike in anxiety, which you've mentioned high anxiety, but they think that the way to deal with that is to just do more stuff. So even their vacations are productive. I could tell you so many stories about Threes that thought this vacation could have been improved by reading five self-help books or five self-improvement books and I'm going to have this schedule to make sure my vacation is as productively relaxing.

Nikhil: I like that. It's true. They can't just be.

Melinda: And it's very hard. So that gets picked up to a frenzied pace. The wall is usually burnout, debilitating panic attacks. Sometimes it's even health issues because they've somaticized all their emotions. They've taken all of their feelings into their body and it's causing issues. That's what I find, they become more and more numb out to that sensitive, sensitive heart they have.

Nikhil: Right. And just for people to understand that stress and internalizing stress and resentment, it will certainly show up in the physical aspect of things. I dealt with that a lot in my hospital training and liver failure, people overeating, then turning to other addictions, because that pain, those emotions internalizing that has to be channeled somewhere. Or if you're going to keep suppressing it you're using other substances or other devices to suppress that and that leads to poor health outcomes. People can certainly die from that. So, it is very important for you to understand the importance of not internalizing such emotion, pain, stress, there's certainly poor outcomes that will occur for all of us who do that. It's important to go to somebody like Melinda or your family or friend, whoever you feel comfortable with to discuss those things.

Threes don't hold it all in. You’ve got to let that out.

Then we have our Type Fours.

Type Four

Melinda: Type Fours, it really is just kind of leaning into that suffering and leaning into those emotions like anger, sadness, shame. Because Fours can also feel anger, depending on the Four, to a point in which it's almost like they have blinders on. They can't see anything else. That's all they see. They're looking down with blinders on and they're churning inside. So, they're caught in that downward spiral but they're aware that they're in that spiral and they're longing to get out, and they have no idea how to do it and then they beat themselves up for not doing it. That's a cycle that I see in Fours when they're in a very unhealthy place.

Now, the thing about it, when I say that Fours find themselves in therapy most right, usually therapists unknowingly reinforce this cycle. Because they're like, oh, you're so aware of your negative emotions. Let's talk about all your feelings. Let's talk about all these things. Which in some cases can further keep them stuck in those feelings. They can think about those feelings on their own for free. And they do. Before they hit that wall of realizing that they need to do something different. They're missing out on life staying stuck in this longing and shame and sadness. That's usually either that or somebody else gets them into therapy. That's what I find.

Nikhil: Well, so many amazing things that we discussed today. I feel like my mind's got a much better understanding of all these different Types, including myself. Again, when you talked about each Type, I felt like at least at some point in my life, whether that's currently, or a couple of years ago, I've felt those types of emotions or have acted those types of ways. I think people need to understand that we will go through different phases of life where we’ll resonate with each Type of personality, and we're supposed to. Or someone we know that does. So, it's important for us, the more we learn about the Enneagram, the more aware we're going to be, the better outcomes we're going to have. Not just personally or professionally, then most importantly, obviously in our relationships, which we need to show up every day for.

For our listeners out there, what are some key takeaways that you would you want them to take home from this podcast. Maybe giving each Type a little bit of a challenge to do for the week to start their self-discovery journey.

Growth Challenge

Melinda: I was really looking forward to this portion. I'm so looking forward to this portion of the podcast. Key takeaways are always awareness. So, if anything resonated with somebody and they think, oh, I might be a Heart Type. Just because you're a Heart Type doesn't mean you do feelings well. Let me just put that out there. We all have our feeling issues.

Kind of take a beat and reflect. Do you notice these themes in your life? Are they central? I think that's something that I would encourage anybody who's beginning an Enneagram journey to really lean into. I know you have some resources for people to figure out what Type they are. I know you're going to post those. I really think that's the first thing. Notice awareness is like you said, that's the first muscle that we can control. So really start to notice if you see resentment or leaning into suffering too much or numbness in your life. Those tend to be ways that Heart Types show up in their individual special ways. That's one thing.

I do have a challenge per Type, if that's okay for me to share.

Nikhil: I love it. No, that's perfect. Individualized each Type.

Type Two

Melinda: For Type Twos, I really want to challenge you. If you know that you're a Two within the next week or two to get some intentional solo time. So, you can't be around anyone else for maybe an hour or two. Ideally, get out of your environment, like your home environment, because there's too many things to do for other people in your home environment. Get out of your home environment. And then try to spend that time focused on your thoughts, emotions and dreams, like your internals. Notice how much you focus on other people, think about your relationships, or think about things outside of yourself. Like other people. Every time that happens, redirect, but just become aware of how often your thoughts go outside. It'll be a lot. Don't be discouraged. It's an awareness exercise. That's for Twos.

Nikhil: Be compassionate. Most importantly, be compassionate with yourselves. When you're starting to discover who you are there's a good side and there's obviously a shadow side that we all have and each one of us has this side. So, when we start becoming more aware of those aspects that we're not so proud of per se, it's important to be compassionate.

Melinda: Absolutely. And thank you because that's really important. Try to do this nonjudgmentally.

Type Three

So, for Threes, I want to encourage y'all to take maybe 30 minutes, because I think that's as much as they'll be able to hang with, challenge me if you think I'm wrong. Take about 30 minutes and do a mindful walk. You're not allowed to bring an iPod; you're not allowed to bring a Kindle. You're not allowed to bring anything productive, no podcasts, nothing. No music. I want you to just look around and try to be present, orient yourself to what you see, hear, smell, and feel during that 30-minute walk. Be present and notice what's in the present. Then Notice how hard that is, if it's hard for you.

Nikhil: I like that. Mindful walks are really, really helpful.

Melinda: Yeah. I think that's a helpful awareness tool for Threes specifically.

Type Four

For our Fours, and this is going to be a hard one, but I want them to start a small list of heart centered gratitude. I want them to keep a gratitude journal, like two or three things they're grateful for every day for a week. It doesn't have to take long, two to three minutes, but try to actively journal about what's good. Like two or three bullet points about what's good about you or what's good about your life right now.

It's going to feel very hard to actively notice what's good about especially yourself, but also the life you're in. This isn't to suppress or deny feelings, but it's actually to round out emotional experience for a Four. For them to notice how often they focus on suffering and how they need to work that muscle of rounding out their emotional experience to what's good and noticing what we call their golden shadow, which is the good things about them that tends to be in their blind spot. That's my challenge for Fours.

Nikhil: These are some great challenges, and we would love for the audience out there to come back next week in the comment section, or as the week's going on, let us know how these challenges are going for you. There is a lot of strength in community and to know that we're all doing this together and kind of like your own soul tribe that hey, change isn't easy. Growth is not easy, but it doesn't have to be done alone. The most important thing to understand is that we're all in this together. We're not meant to be doing everything in life by ourselves. That’s what's great about having a community, and a community of likeminded individuals.

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About Dr. Nikhil Sharma & AlignUs

I’m Dr. Nikhil Sharma, founder of AlignUs and for the last 10 years I had dedicated my life to working with patients with liver failure due to alcohol or obesity, who suffer from addictions and was a part of their rehabilitation process and helping them to get to a new liver and a second chance at life. During that period, I thought to myself, what if we could prevent people from suffering major physical health issues by helping them heal from their traumas and improve their mental health?

So, I created AlignUs where our mission is to inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy through compassion, connection and competition.

AlignUs creates a high vibrational atmosphere that involves self-care, physical competition and charitable donations. AlignUs will revolutionize how we do philanthropy in this digital age, while making it fun and rewarding to help each other.

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What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

An Intro to the Enneagram (Part II)

Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) and Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) join Nikhil Sharma (AlignUs World) in a six part series to discuss the Enneagram.

In this six part series we give an introduction to each Enneagram Type, look at each of the Triads: Body, Heart, and Head, and discuss subtypes and instincts.

Watch the video below for Cracking the Code: An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part II) (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)

• An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part I)

• Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s

• Head Types - 5s, 6s, 7s

• Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

• Subtypes and Instincts

Downloadables

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Transcript

Continuing from “Cracking the Code: An Introduction to the Enneagram (Part 1)”…

Type Three

Nikhil: Let’s move on to Type Three.

Melinda: I like to call them “The Performers” because that's just how they do life. They want to be seen as successful, valuable. They want to be seen as sometimes even the best at what they do where they are. However, they do that in a way that's similar to Two, they shapeshift. Often, they'll take on what's valuable to the group around them and shapeshift into that and often become the most successful version of that in order to be admired. As opposed to Twos wanting to be loved, Threes want to be respected, admired, applauded. Loved is fine, but I think those other things are more paramount for Threes and they'll shapeshift in order to do it. But they don't know themselves. They lose touch with their own internals as well.

Joanne: I would say that if you overlay all the personality disorder descriptions, the diagnosis codes, you will see one or two or three personality disorders for every Type, except for Type Three. We're in a very Three-ish country. So, Three is just assumed to be the standard.

Melinda: It's all about success. Getting to the top, looking good, having other people think you're awesome.

Nikhil: Is that right? Have we found out that Type Three is the most common Enneagram Type in the US?

Melinda: No, I don’t think so. I think it's probably the most aspired to.

Joanne: I wouldn't say that there's more Threes in the population, but because their dynamics are just assumed to be the baseline. Threes, in addition to their deadly sin being self-deceit, have the hardest time recognizing themselves because the entire world basically applauds them for their ego patterns.

Melinda: They are so productive. They do things all the time. Even their rest is productive. Often, I run into Threes in my own practice because they've burned out. They’re like I’ve had a heart attack. My body's given out. I'm sick and my marriage is falling apart, my relationship, and I had no other choice but to go to therapy.

Joanne: They wear themselves out and they come in like, “Just tell me what the steps are. Let’s go!”

Melinda: And we’re like, “We’re going to have to get into your feelings.” And they're like, that's so unproductive.

Joanne: Inefficient.

Nikhil: That's interesting. Because they're a part of the Heart Type and I feel like that Type is a little bit vulnerable or they have a lot of emotions. They're emotional thinkers.

Melinda: I think what's interesting, and we'll talk about this more with the Heart Triad, but Threes underdo feeling. They underdo Heart. Fours overdo it. Twos tend to be in conflict or have a chaotic.

Joanne: In the Gut Types as well, that's the same case. Eights overdue anger, Nines under-do anger, and Ones are at odds with it. So, Nines in the Gut Triad are the ones that are like, huh, how are you in the Anger Triad?

Melinda: They're never angry.

Joanne: That would be Sixes for the Head Types.

Melinda: So, for Threes, exactly correct. They don't really have much to do or are in touch with their emotions.

Nikhil: Got it. Now, moving on to Type Four and we have our experts here in Joanne.

Type Four

Joanne: The resident Four.

One way of easily conceptualizing Fours is in opposition to Twos and Threes. In fact, Twos and Threes tend to seek connection at the expense of authenticity or connection with themselves. Fours go the opposite direction. They overly connect with themselves and lose connection with other people.

Sometimes the Fours are known as “The Romantics”, “The Artists”, “The Tragic”. That can happen but it kind of depends on the Four and the context that they're in. Whereas Nines try to find the common area and try to blend themselves in, Fours try to stand out. I think the term individualist is probably more useful and flexible in that they often live as if everyone else belongs with each other, but I stand out. I'm on the outside looking in. There's something different about me for better and for worse. Either I'm super special and awesome, or I'm the worst person on the planet or both.

Melinda: Sometimes they oscillate.

Joanne: It's still the sense of feeling disconnected, feeling disconnected from life, from other people and in their echo chamber they focus on their flaws. It's like there must be something essential in me that I'm missing and it's out there somewhere. What is it? I don't know, but it's probably something and it's probably out there somewhere. So, I got to go chase that instead of recognizing that we already have the essential thing in being present.

So, Fours end up being super emotionally expressive or emotionally motivated. They might not always show their feelings, but they tend to do according to how they feel. What they feel often tends to be negative emotions because they're living out of the sense of lack and out of the sense of not being enough.

So, they are very comfortable with negative feelings. Probably any movie or any TV drama has a lot of Fourishness. Because whatever doesn't involve drama is boring. Fours tend to live out their drama. They probably don't need TV drama.

Melinda: Probably not. Some of them might look down on TV dramas.

Joanne: Fours often have an easier time when things are actually going terribly. Like during Covid Fours were the calmest people.

Melinda: It was so crazy. I was freaking out and she's like, oh, well, things were already bad.

Joanne: Yeah, everyone's having an existential crisis, everyone’s freaking out and Fours were like, oh, you guys are now catching up.

Nikhil: I gotcha. So, kind of like the rocks of the situation, like in chaos you guys are the people to be able to depend upon and to help guide you through those tough situations that others may find very disruptive.

Joanne: I would say we're suffering junkies. It's like suffering and sadness is very delicious.

Melinda: Oh my gosh. And yet you mentioned anything like hope or joy. They're like, ahh!

Joanne: No, no, pass.

Nikhil: Mentioning about the lack and how people live, I feel like a lot of people live in that mentality where we are not good enough and we tend to dwell on the negative aspects of our being. It's almost like our brains are hardwired to try to figure out the one or two things that aren't going good in our life or that we feel we don't have and that's just a feeling. Again people, our feelings and our thoughts are not always true, but somehow, we believe that they are true because from a young age that's what we've been growing up to believe. I think it's something that a lot of us can resonate with and we feel like we need to gain validation externally for a lot of our feelings. But we realize once we sit down and do a little self-reflection that, hey, all that we need is right here, right inside of us. We don't need to be like others.

Joanne: You mentioned earlier that we probably resonate with a little bit of everything because these are universal human experiences. It's just that each Type identifies with one aspect of the human experience and makes it seem as if that's all of who they are. So, Fours identify themselves with their suffering. It's like their security blankie. We need to recognize that there's a lot more to us than just what we think we are. Whereas for everyone else, that’s not a Four, needs to get in touch with Four-ish experiences. That happens in like midlife crisis.

Melinda: I have a direct line to Four. So, it's been very helpful for me to get in touch with those things for sure.

Nikhil: That's a great explanation of Fours and the Heart Triads. Now, we're moving into my favorite Triad just because I'm a part of this Triad, which is the Head Triad. And that's Types Five, Six, and Seven. And this is the thinking Triad.

Head Triad

Type Five

Melinda: We'll start with Five. I'm married to a Five. Actually, Two and Five couples are really common. Fives are known to be “The Observers”. I live in Silicon Valley, a lot of mathematicians, software engineers, scientists, et cetera, end up being Fives, interestingly. It's a profession that has a lot to do with their brains. They rely on their thoughts and their heads in order to navigate life and remain in control. However, they have a very difficult time accessing their hearts and their bodies in order to input information. My hook with Fives is often you're not being as logical as you think you are because you deny two incredibly important ways of taking in information via your emotions and your body or your gut.

Fives are very top heavy and so head heavy. Out of fear of being overwhelmed, out of fear of being overtaken, they rely on their heads to get them through life, thinking, knowing things, and keeping a lock control on their energy. So, God forbid a Five doesn't know what they're going to do with their day because they're not going to be able to allocate their energy correctly so that they're not depleted, which is I think probably one of their biggest fears.

Anything you want to add?

Joanne: I like describing Fives as someone who's living in a fortress with an ivory tower. It's like heavily guarded walls with a drawbridge. On top of that, they're living in their ivory towers, looking down and observing everything else all the meanwhile feeling sad and lonely very deeply. Wanting to be connecting with others, but feeling very scared of possibly being overtaken if they were to let them in. But if others also move away, they're like peeking out the windows, where’d you go?

Melinda: I think that's the aspect that a lot of people don't really know about Fives. They're deeply sensitive. They have really deep feelings. It's just that they have a really hard time connecting with others and connecting with those emotions. If somebody identifies as Five and heard me say that they'd be like, do I? But they do.

Nikhil: Do they have a quality of being judgmental at times? Because they built up this tower and they're seeing things from this higher perspective or so they think.

Joanne: I think it's because they find their knowledge as a source of safety and security. It's like if they're more certain then they're less vulnerable but inadvertently they end up looking down on other people. That can often create a lot of tension in their life circumstances. At work they get praised for it because that's what they're paid to do in being the expert but in personal, nonprofessional arenas it's really hard.

The other part around the fortress is that because the gates are locked up, they only have a set number of materials, resources, et cetera. And if only they opened the doors to be connected with the rest of the world, they’d have more resources. But because of their fear of possibly being overtaken and seeing others as possible invaders, they keep their doors locked up and then they need to figure out how am I going to ration myself, my time, my energy, my money.

Melinda: All the things. Which is the passion of the Five, which is avarice. They need to make sure they have enough because they're not accepting other resources internally.

Nikhil: We need to get that drawbridge down for them, to their fortress.

Joanne: But they've also learned how to live on very little. They think they have enough with what they have because they've shrunk in their parts, and they decrease the size of their needs.

Scarcity is there.

Melinda: It's a huge thing.

Joanne: They don't know it's scarcity.

Nikhil: That's a great explanation of Type Fives.

And now we're moving to Type Sixes.

Type Six

Melinda: I have family members who are Sixes.

Nikhil: As we're going through this conversation, there's so many people who are popping into my head for each Type. It's just so beautiful. I'm hoping that's happening to those that are listening and viewing this podcast as well.

Melinda: Yeah. So, Type Six, also a Head Type. Type Sixes are interesting because they're “The Contrarian”. They have lots of terms, but “Contrarian” is good. They live in the world anticipating the worst. So, if Fives, Sixes and Sevens are on the Head Triad and the Fear Triad, Sixess are the ones that overdo fear.

They are constantly anticipating worst case scenarios. How they are going to get through them? What is going to happen? How they're going to survive in order to get through the day and through their lives. So, they have an over focuse on those things and their needs are around security. How can I be safe in this world that is so dangerous. Sixes go about that in different ways either finding somebody who is an authority to latch on to, but also, they're suspicious of them. Finding community and friends to find security in or conquering their fears. Going straight at them. Either way they tend to be controlled by fear.

They often find themselves paralyzed to know what to do in the midst of it, even though they're creating worst case scenarios, they often question themselves. Am I doing the right thing? I don't know. Should we be doing this? I don't know. They often have a very hard time landing on a way to be or go because they have a very hard time trusting themselves and others.

Joanne: Let's say the descriptions of Type Sixes from the outside would mimic a lot of PTSD symptoms. The main difference is that in terms of hyper vigilance, worst case scenario, scanning for signs of danger, mistrusting other people, all that stuff, Sixes do it as part of their defense mechanism. So, Sixes also can experience trauma, but a lot of their internal turmoil comes from them assuming that there's a threat and danger. Pre-traumatic stress disorder probably describes them as opposed to post-traumatic stress disorder.

Whereas Fives tend to find their security in accumulating knowledge, Sixes find the security in anticipating, being vigilant, and planning for things not knowing that they probably don't need to prepare as much. But Sixes, it's as if they need to have something that's dangerous to justify them preparing for it. So, Sixes have a really hard time owning their actual power and their own strength. These are folks who often can be stuck in imposter syndrome, a lot of self-questioning and self-doubt. Even though everyone else is like, what are you talking about? You’re so good at this! No, but what if?

Melinda: Yeah. They give away their power a lot and project it outward, which is another defense mechanism of the Six. They project their power outward. Like, oh, you know what you're doing. I'm going to trust you. But they’re not the contrarian for nothing. There's also a conflictual relationship.

Joanne: It’s a love, hate relationship with authority figures because Sixes have disowned their own power.      

Nikhil: For those who don't know what the Imposter Syndrome is, it's really when you tend to self-doubt your own abilities and beliefs when you're feeling you're not good enough or you don't belong here. That's typically known as Imposter Syndrome. I think that's a very good explanation of Sixes.

Moving forward to the last, but not least, clearly the best, and I'm clearly probably already exhibiting some of my characteristic traits for a Type Seven, which is like an Enthusiast or a Dreamer Type. How do Type Sevens typically show up?

Type Seven

Melinda: I'll say this one thing, and then I'll let Joanne take the helm.

Sevens are one of the only Types I know who, when they find their Type, they're ecstatic. They're like, this is clearly the best one. So fun. So exciting. Like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Wait until we get to that depth work.

Nikhil: Oh, I know.

Joanne: I like describing Sevens in comparison to Ones and Fours who are the other idealist Types. It's like a three-legged stool. I mentioned with Ones that they tend to compare reality to the ideal and fill the space in between with frustration, Fours fill it with sadness, and Sevens fill it with excitement and anticipation.

It's kind of counterintuitive, like how are they in the Head Type. Head Type’s easier to understand, how they are in the Fear Triad? Because they're so like positivity, like fun, excitement, etc. It's just that what we see on the outside is the fear showing up. It's the fear of being trapped, especially being trapped in pain and suffering, all the negative stuff in the world. By overly considering the world as being their oyster, and they're going to go out and have all these fun experiences so that they don't FOMO.

Nikhil: Yeah, that's it. It's the fear of FOMO for sure.

Melinda: Absolutely. It's like I'm doing this fun thing now, but what are the five other fun things that I could also be doing right now? It's all about what could be.

Nikhil: Exactly. And I'll tell the viewers and audience like how it shows up for me or how it used to show up for me was that I would have a large group of friends. I have many friends and different group circles. So, I would go out with one group of friends and while I'm there having dinner, I'm not really paying attention to what's going on there. I'm actually thinking about the club that we're going to be going to next where I'm going to meet my next group of friends, which are the more outgoing, like really want to get crazy, we're going to take shots. But I'm here at dinner because these are my resident friends and I still have a good community with them, but I can't wait for the next scene. Let's hurry up and finish up. I'm looking at the clock. I'm like, let's go, we're missing out. The party's about to start.

Melinda: Exactly.

Joanne: I think some ways that that shows up in the day to day is not wanting to lock down plans just in case something more exciting shows up. Often the Sevens can be very slippery in the way that they kind of get away from making decisions or making commitments all the meanwhile, rationalizing. This is what the Head Type kicks in. Really effectively rationalizing why that is good or why that's important. So, Sevens would be like the kids who talk the parents out of making sure that they do their chores because they justified some good reason, but it's really the defense mechanism at work so that they don't have to do the boring stuff.

Melinda: Something else I really want to emphasize with Sevens is that deep fear of being trapped or stuck in negative emotion is the thing. Negative emotion is the thing that drives them. There's huge fear of really being in the present and being in the present means accepting whatever comes, positive negative. It doesn't matter. Sevens avoid the negative. In fact, that I find so sad, they don't actually experience true joy because true joy is being fully in the present and accepting everything that is. All negative and positive experiences and then finding joy.

So, Sevens actually miss out.

Joanne: The other things is that Sevens accidentally end up creating suffering for themselves by avoiding it. So, Sevens are one of the Types that tend to only show up to therapy when they're dragged into couples therapy because their partner is so fed up.

Melinda: “We need to talk.”

“We're good. Everything's fine.”

Nikhil: I can confirm that. Yes, I've been in that situation.

Joanne: People who are in the splash zone are the ones who overly experience negativity because the person who's a Seven is underly dealing with themselves.

Nikhil: Right. I feel like we don't like routines and we don't like to be tied down for too long. We love our freedom. Anytime that there's pain, we cringe and run. I'd usually book a flight to Vegas as soon as I felt like I needed to escape any kind of tough situation, whether that was something that was going on with my family and my dad or whatever. It's just that the feeling of sitting in anything discomfort, I don't want to feel like that’s all that there can be. There always is a positive side or there's a “the grass is greener on the other side” type of situation. That’s why when I read about the Sevens I was like, oh, that's me. I fell right perfectly into that.

Now when you're explaining it like this, and obviously I've been doing the work for the past nine months, you see where the qualities that you think are good, but there is clearly a really bad side to being the way that you are, at least for a Seven. That not having any routine, nowadays, Joanne knows that I can't live without a routine, like I have to be up at six o'clock in the morning. I have to walk. I have to meditate. I have to journal. That's what's great about the Enneagram. It's about finding out who you are, what has worked for you and what hasn't worked for you to get to where you're at today. And then implement a plan of how you can move forward and do it.

Melinda: Follow it to its end. Go all the way, not just start a new project.

Nikhil: No, exactly. For people to really understand, this isn't easy. This is not an easy journey. It's not something that's going to happen overnight for you. I've been on this journey for nine and a half months and I feel like I'm just past the surface of what the potential is. But if you keep at it, despite numerous obstacles that will certainly come up, because you changing is going to trigger a lot of people. It's going to make you have to possibly change jobs. It's going to make you have to change your friends. It's going to bring a lot of change and change is very uncomfortable for people. It's uncomfortable. We're creatures of comfort. It's easy for us to fall back to our autopilot mode and to be back with the same friends that we grew up with. It's not to say that we can't be around these people, you just have to be cognizant about this journey. It's such a beautiful journey. You literally will empower yourself. You will take life by its horns and be able to control and actually dictate what most of the actions and outcomes that will happen in life. Whereas before I feel like you're just going through life and then, oh, something happens and you're shocked and you're not able to handle life's adversities when you're not as awake as you can be.

Joanne: Well said.

Melinda: Yes, there we are. I don’t think I can one-up that.

Nikhil: That's a perfect way I feel to wrap up this beautiful interview today.

Are there any key takeaways that you guys have for us about the Enneagram? Specifically, we'd love for our audience and viewers to be able to join on this journey and try to figure out what their Enneagram Types are. We try to have them do something this week and some sort of challenge.

How to Find Your Enneagram Type

Melinda: I think a key takeaway, which kind of leads into the challenge, and the challenges over the series is the Enneagram is not just a descriptor. It's not just a way of describing coping mechanisms and autopilot patterns. It is a mode and a tool for growth. Deep transformation. With that in mind, that's how I want us to take these challenges that we have for the week. Because this is about finding our essential selves.

Joanne: You really can't change what you don't know is already happening.

The very first step is find out what's happening. So, if you don't know your Type that will be the first place to start. You kind of get a sense of it when you're listening to the nine Types and you're like, ooh, that didn't feel good. Or that sounds so familiar. It might be because either that is your Type or you have a connection to that Type in your growth path, or it might be that some of the significant people in your life kind of embodies that Type, as well. So, just first point of explanation is as you listen to the different Types descriptions notice your internal reactions. If it really isn't likely your Type, you're not going to have much of a reaction to it because your behind-the-scenes defense mechanism isn't going to be put on blast.

Melinda: And if you're like, oh, that Type sounds cool. That's probably not your Type. That's described well, then it's not your Type.

Joanne: After you find out what your Type is, then it's for you to allow whatever reactions to come. It's very normal. It's kind of like the matrix. You take the pill, and you find out that life in reality is like totally different from what you thought it was. It's okay for you to feel disoriented and confused. I highly recommend you either work with a professional who can help walk you down that path or some really good, trusted friends who are also committed to doing their own personal work.

If you don't know your Type, we do have a blog that has like DIY, step by step instructions. Though, because the Enneagram is a description about why we do what we do instead of what we do, it can be a lot more slippery than Strengths Finders or Myers Briggs where you can just take an online test to find your Type.

Melinda: Exactly. There's another resource that we have that will describe probably a really good indicator that you found your correct Type. I would suggest reading both of those resources.

Nikhil: We'll certainly link and provide the descriptions of those websites in our comment section below.

Just one quick question. You're saying that the personality Type tests that are online for the Enneagram are not accurate or reliable sources? Because you know how it is these days, people pass along these little links and it's like, oh yeah, take the Enneagram test. How accurate are those tests just for everyone to understand that.

Joanne: If it helps eliminate some numbers, of the nine, fine.

Melinda: I would say they're not particularly accurate in finding your Core Type because a lot of those tests are going on what the Type can look like, not necessarily the motivator. People get mistyped very easily if they just rely on a test.

Joanne: The social context that we're in also matters too, because countries have their own Enneagram Types. Or specific families or specific organizations. So, sometimes there are some shapeshifting Types. They tend to look like whatever they are expected. So, we also can’t just rely on test results because of those other layers involved. It's also self-reporting and honestly, if we're not really self-aware already, how accurately can we really answer questions about what our core needs or core fears are?

Nikhil: Very true. Thank you guys for joining us on the AlignUs Podcast, where we inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy for more resources on today's events and to stay connected to AlignUs and our app release, visit our website. You can also follow us on all of our social media play pages at AlignUs World.

Until we meet again. Stay aligned. Stay connected and stay anchored in the power of unconditional love. Namaste.

Stay tuned for Subtypes and Insticts

---

About Dr. Nikhil Sharma & AlignUs

I’m Dr. Nikhil Sharma, founder of AlignUs and for the last 10 years I had dedicated my life to working with patients with liver failure due to alcohol or obesity, who suffer from addictions and was a part of their rehabilitation process and helping them to get to a new liver and a second chance at life. During that period, I thought to myself, what if we could prevent people from suffering major physical health issues by helping them heal from their traumas and improve their mental health?

So, I created AlignUs where our mission is to inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy through compassion, connection and competition.

AlignUs creates a high vibrational atmosphere that involves self-care, physical competition and charitable donations. AlignUs will revolutionize how we do philanthropy in this digital age, while making it fun and rewarding to help each other.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Head Types

Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) & Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) are Enneagram therapists who love helping people grow beyond their reactive patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing.

Our Enneagram type patterns used to be helpful when we were actually vulnerable and powerless (often in childhood), but when we grew up, our autopilot patterns didn't update accordingly. What used to be our greatest strengths eventually become some of our greatest liabilities.

In this 4-part series on The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types, learn about:

• The main themes of the Head Triad

• The central emotion for Head Types: Fear

• How Enneagram Fives, Sixes, and Sevens navigate fear

• Growth steps for each Enneagram Type

Watch the video below for Part 4: Head Types (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)

• Part 1: Introduction

• Part 2: Body Types (8s, 9s, 1s)

• Part 3: Heart Types (2s, 3s, 4s)

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Video Transcript

Joanne: Welcome to our part four in this four part series, “Enneagram Emotional Habits”.

Melinda: Hi, everybody. 

Today we're going to talk about Head Types, which interestingly are the Types that mystify us the most. But we love them. We've done a lot of study around them. I am married to a Head Type, so I have a little insight into Head Types.

Joanne: A  lot of our main coaches and therapists have been Sixes.

Melinda: We're super grateful for that because we really need that as people who tend to undervalue the head.

Joanne: Regarding all the Triads they have their own corresponding themes. The main themes for Head Types, in particular, are around safety, security, certainty, trust and mistrust, and making sure they're okay. The way that each Type goes about it is different. The central emotion for all Head Types is around fear.

I think Fives tend to be in conflict with their fear, Sixes tend to overdo fear, and Sevens tend to underdo fear. 

Would you like to share with us about our lovely Fives? 

Melinda: I really would. I love Fives, not just because I'm married to a Five, but because I feel like Fives are really misunderstood. As a Two, I relate to that because I think we're also misunderstood. 

Fives, like I mentioned, though they are cut off from their feelings, because of them being Head Types they tend to actually have a quite conflicted or chaotic relationship with sadness. They tend to be a Type that leans more toward depression than the other two Types, and that's because they tend to isolate themselves.

I love this metaphor that Joanne came up with. It's like Fives are in a fortress with doors that are barred and locked. They are looking out and sometimes feeling the sadness or longing, wanting to be included, but terrified of allowing that door to open because they don't want to be overtaken or overwhelmed.

The themes for Fives often are around feeling fear that they're going to be overwhelmed by others. Their energy is going to be depleted. They won't have enough resources to get through the day or get through their lives. So they tend to be very protective of their energy, their time, even their stuff, and their knowledge. They tend to be very locked in. 

If we take that metaphor of the fortress with the doors locked, unfortunately, what they don't realize is that if they were to just open the doors they might be able to get the resources they need to get through the day and the connections that they need. But unfortunately, fear keeps it locked.

Fives aren't really always in touch with their fear. They've cut off their heart and their bodies and tend to live in their heads because they protect themselves from this fear by  knowing things, through knowledge. Fives collect knowledge. They store it up. The one thing that they allow in through those doors is the knowledge of everything. The things that they're really passionate about, their jobs, certain subjects, whatever. They bulk up on knowledge to defend themselves against being insecure. To defend themselves against feeling afraid in the world and to make themselves safe. Unfortunately, that means that they miss out on their emotions and connections. Emotions are the things that connect us with other people and connect us with ourselves. Fives really have an experience of not being connected with themselves and others.

I actually think more than most people admit, Fives really on some level understand that, which is why they tend toward depression. They understand that they're cut off and they isolate and they have a very hard time reaching out. It's almost like they're frozen. This is why I feel so sad about Fives because they’re so beautiful and sensitive and they themselves don't know that and the people in their lives tend to not know that.

Joanne: Of the BIG Five emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, NUMB, NUMB is probably their favorite emotion. Also in that they're very good at rationalizing why they should stay NUMB. Also pursuing things like careers that tend to be right in alignment with their giftings. It's like, in a lot of ways, it kind of is a mutually reinforcing echo chamber. 

Melinda: Yeah, I also find with Fives, much like Ones, they tend to somaticize their emotions. Like when you’re NUMB emotions have to come out. It means you're overwhelmed. Emotions have to come out some way. Often with Fives they come out with stiffness or issues with their back, feeling achy, sometimes nausea, and sometimes with depression. Fives are deeply sensitive people.

Joanne: That might be the growth step. You could actually use the body as a backdoor way of connecting with the heart. Noticing that you feel a certain ache or tension or whatnot and trying to translate that into corresponding to whatever feelings they might have. 

Melinda: You might want to ask a close friend, should you have that, or your partner, if they are more feelings conversant. It might be helpful to let them know like, “Hey, I have this ache or I have this nausea. Is there a corresponding feeling with that?” You might not be able to connect the two but they might be able to help you. That actually is a secondary growth step, which is asking for help, which I know is difficult for Fives, as well. 

Joanne: Let down that drawbridge, man. 

Melinda: Yeah, because there's so many resources that are there and ready for you if you allow things in. 

We love you Fives. Good luck with your challenge. Do we want to move on to Sixes?

Joanne: Sixes are hard to peg in a lot of ways and I think that comes to the territory of the Type itself. There's a lot of shifting going on on the vagrant side, especially in their heads.

Sometimes they're known as “The Contrarians” or “Devil's Advocate”, “The Questioner”, “The Loyalist”. All these contradictory terms, ironically. I think that also shows up when it comes to their own emotions, too. It’s just that there's always this questioning and never a settling. So, I would say that as a Head Type they're the feelers of the Head Type. They tend to be most driven or most obviously connected to fear as an emotion but they intellectualize it so much that they might not even register it as a feeling. 

Melinda: Yeah. It depends on the subtype usually. With Sixest there tends to be a pretty big stratification of how you experience the feeling based on your Subtype.

Sexual Instincts tend to face fear head on, so they might be the type that are less connected with their experience of fear. Though I've found that fear is still something pretty dominant for Sexual Subtypes and Sixes. It's just that they're like, “Fuck you fear, I'm gonna go at ya.” 

Joanne: Fight mode.

Melinda: Socials tend to be pretty removed from their fear. 

Joanne: More NUMB. 

Melinda: It's a more NUMB kind of feeling. They might do the things that the other two Types do in terms of fear. They might have some conscious understanding that they feel it, but I think they tend to withdraw from it a little more, tend to be a little more distant.

Self-preservation Sixes are the ones that we're kind of going to peg as the stereotypical Six. They tend to be very anxious. That's how we talk about Sixes. Overdoing fear. Self-pres Sixes are going to be the ones that are really obvious about it. Whichever one you identify with, we would say that you have kind of an over-active relationship with fear. That tends to show up for Sixes regardless of Type or Subtype as kind of the catastrophizing and the over preparation, just in case something bad happens. Would you say that's your experience with Sixes?

Joanne: Totally. Being more future oriented, they focus on what could happen and what could happen is more negative.

Mistrust is what leads the way and the emotion that I think Sixes have the hardest time connecting with is probably joy. And that like, “When's the other shoe going to drop?” as if there's always another shoe. Or like, “What does this person want from me? Are they being honest?” There's always like frenetic energy to them. 

I think even though Sixes are driven by fear they might not consciously be aware of it because they're so in their head and they're very good at justifying things. If you tell a Six they're being pessimistic, they would say, “I'm just being a realist.”

Across all Head Types they're so good at justifying their own position. I think that only reinforces the disconnect from the heart.

Melinda: For Sixes, I think one other thing to put out there is that the way that they try to find security, again is probably different per Subtype, but I think the thing that holds true with all of them is that they have a very difficult time finding security. Even when they either reach out, no matter how they try to do it, either finding security in their connections or other people, finding security in an authority or a dogma, or a way of viewing the world, or finding security and going at your fears, like balls to the wall. Whatever Sixes try to connect with and try to find security in, what remains true, is that they have a very hard time trusting and finding security within themselves.

The world out there is scary and the world in here is scary. I can't trust anybody out there and I can't trust anybody in here. That causes a huge, huge amount of insecurity and fear. Of course it would, because if you can't find safety anywhere, then you have to work really hard in order to make it happen. It's tenuous at best. Sixes kind of find themselves in a jam. I feel for them. That's really hard. Onto our growth step.

Joanne: I think being in touch with your fear. Being honest about it is one thing and allowing yourself to temper the questioning a little bit more, 5% less questioning than before. 

Melinda: Dialing it down just a tad.

Joanne: Because you might be creating your own anxiety, ironically. If that's the case it can also go the other direction. If you look for what is okay, even though things could go bad, then you might actually create another feedback loop where you start noticing things that are actually okay, even though it could be bad or it could be worse. So, giving more attention, more room towards things still being okay, being steady, being secure, that would be the recommendation. 

Melinda: We hope that you feel like you can engage that challenge Sixes. Good luck. We Heart Types love you. 

I think we're going to move on to Sevens.

Joanne: In a lot of ways, Sevens are the opposite of Sixes in that Sevens also focus on what could be, but towards the positive. I think whenever people find out what their Enneagram Types are, everyone else except for Sevens are like, “Oh, it's terrible. Why are you so negative?”

Sevens are like, “This is great. I love my Type.” 

Usually those who are in close relationships with Sevens are like, “Oh my god, I'm so tired. I feel so resentful and negative because Sevens tend to be positive.” 

GLAD for Sevens is a defense structure in that it's an overdoing of the positive emotion as a way of downplaying or ignoring the negative stuff. 

Melinda: Especially fear. Of the Triad, I think they underdo fear. 

Joanne: I don't think Sevens are as aware or conscious about their fear. One way to find out is they still look for the exits too when it comes to difficult conversations or whatnot. They just rationalize. That is the main defense mechanism, rationalization. They find their way to sweet talk their way out of focusing on difficult things, responsibilities, things that are boring, etc. Not knowing that they're weaseling out of things is actually what makes situations harder. 

Melinda: I think that's the way that Sevens actually act out their fear. If you're a Seven, think about things being sad, feeling trapped in that sadness, never being able to get out of your sadness. That's fear, right? Sevens have a fear of being trapped in negative emotions. Actually, Sevens have a fear of being trapped in general. 

Joanne: Keeping your options open, making sure you get to choose into the more fun or exciting or better thing.

Melinda: Exactly. What Sevens have a hard time doing, I think every Enneagram Type has a hard time with this, but being in the present. What they fail to understand, sadly, is that only when we're open to every emotion in the present and what's happening in the present do we actually connect with JOY. I think JOY is what Sevens are trying to connect with, but unfortunately, it doesn't happen if we're not connected with all of the feelings.

Joanne: Lower hanging fruit growth stuff for Sevens, because I'm not sure if y'all are eager to jump into the deep end just yet.

Melinda: And that's okay.

Joanne: Is to practice alternating between doing something exciting and something that is a little bit more blah. Just so that you still get the stuff going but you're not going to be completely trapped in it. There is an overemphasis on seeking freedom by resisting limits. But freedom and limits actually go hand in hand.

It's kind of like the fencing around a playground structure. Within the fencing you can go wild and do whatever you want, but you’ve got to make sure to stay within so that you're not at risk of danger. It’s the same thing with our life's experiences. There are responsibilities and things that must be done but that is actually what empowers you and frees you up to actually really engage things and enjoy the deeper things in life without this nagging thing in the back of your head. Like, “I know you shouldn't be doing this.” Make it easier on yourself. 

Someone said, “Swallow the frog.” 

Do the thing that you don't want to do first and then you can reward yourself with a fun thing.

Melinda: That's a great challenge. 

I think also remembering too, in the same way, engaging all your emotions eventually is the thing that leads to true JOY and freedom. I know it sounds very counterintuitive, especially for Sevens, but allowing yourself to be able to be present with what is, whether it be good or bad or neutral, is the thing that then frees you from actually being enslaved to positive or good vibes. Which actually is what Sevens are. You actually are trapped. That's the reality. 

Joanne: The bias of Head Types is that there's such a high emphasis on reasoning, rationale, the intellect, et cetera. Often all Head Types tend to think that they're just being mature, reasonable, grounded, and everyone else, especially those with feelings, are being immature, irrational, whatever. It's just that the ironic thing is, if our body and our heart are also other legitimate sources of really important information the irrational thing is to lop off or close off access to those other centers of intelligence. 

Melinda: How rational are you being if you lop off two incredibly important ways of viewing and interpreting the world. 

Joanne: It's actually irrational for you to only favor certain data and ignore everything else. 

High recommendation for all y'all Head Types to really get to know emotions and also your body experiences as a really important source of information. It seems irrational on the outside, but that's because no one really trained us on how to do feelings well. It is a huge, strong belief of mine that each of the BIG Five emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, NUMB, and also SHAME as well, have their corresponding themes and messages about what we're needing and what we're wanting, who we are, et cetera. So, to close off the door to your heart space is a huge disadvantage for you because you're basically living life blind. It's a huge part of you. 

We have a couple of resources for everyone. We have a quick, at a glance view of how each Enneagram Type interacts with each of the BIG Five emotions. Also a more in-depth guide, because I know y'all want to do your research, right? This guide, “The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types”, has a more thorough look as to what's really going on, not just with the main emotion of the Triad, but what each emotion actually means and what they're for.

Melinda has created another guide for us, “Growth Tip of the Enneagram Types”.

Melinda: I made this especially for y'all who are really just wanting to get into the nitty gritty of growth and deep transformation. The Enneagram is amazing for that and it's so much more than just descriptors of our core Types. I hope that these tips and challenges will help you to get even deeper into knowing your essential self and fighting against and becoming more aware of your ego patterns. As you get to know your essential selves, I think you'll find that they actually look a lot different than your core Type, which is pretty surprising. I developed this guide with a few tips for y'all who are really wanting to grow more deeply in your Enneagram journey. These have been helpful for us so I wanted to pass this on to y'all with more to come. 

I think you're Big Feelers First Aid Kit might be a good thing for our Head Types, too.

Joanne: I also made a separate guide specifically for those whose feelings tend to show up sideways and show up at the wrong place at the wrong time. For example, like a lot of Fives tend to call out sick from work because they stuffed their feelings so much that the body somaticized it. In order to prevent people from just locking up their feelings, this is kind of an alternative where you can buy yourself time if your feelings are showing up in more sideways ways. The point is to actually dedicate a specific time and space for you to actually sit with and process your feelings, not just way after the fact because they get more confusing. I'm sure y'all don't like that. Also grab the Big Feelers First Aid Kit as an additional resource, a handy tool to put into your library.

In general Head Types, one of the main areas of challenge is around relationships. So, don't just study about your own specific Type patterns, but also listen in on the Body Types and the Heart Types, as well.

Thanks again for joining us here for our series and we'll catch you next time.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type? Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Talk With an Enneagram Type Four

Here’s a video about being an Enneagram Type 4. Melissa Moore from the podcast “Faith Hope Love with Melissa Moore” invited me to talk about life as a Four. Scroll down for a transcript. Follow Faith Hope Love on Youtube.

Melissa: Hey guys, it's Melissa Moore. Thanks for joining me on today's episode of Faith Hope. Love where we grow together in our faith, increase in hope and learn how to better love God and love other people. We are in the middle of our, what's Your Type Enneagram series, and we're talking with a Four today. So I'm joined by a therapist of the Silicon Valley, Joanne Kim, licensed marriage family therapist, and we're gonna jump on in. Joanne, thanks for joining me.

Joanne: Glad to be here. I am a Four who actually doesn't look quite like a four, and I'll speak more to that a bit later. As a therapist, I primarily work with people who have a very. Familiar experience with anxiety, guilt, and shame, and also have an allergic reaction to anger.

A lot of the people I work with happen to be the empathic, conscientious, responsible types who then get burnt out and resentful and then they reach out to me. It's super fun to walk them through what it's like to understand their emotions and work with them instead of working against them. That's my jam.

My Enneagram Journey

Melissa: Being a type Four and being a therapist, I feel like that really helps you a lot in your practice, working with people that are similar in their desires for transformation. It's cool that you're able to help that process along just by being who you are. 

We're talking about the Enneagram today. How long have you been a student of the Enneagram and did you always know that you were a type Four? Did you mistype? What's your process been? 

Joanne: I came across the Enneagram about six or so years ago while I was in my therapy supervision group as a supervisee.

When the people around me introduced it to me I was like, there's no way that this can fit me, there's no way that this is going to resonate. 

And actually I was mistyped early on. It turns out a couple years later I learned that I'm actually a counter type, which means the version of the type that doesn't look like the type.

From the outside, what people would see of me is being very  much like a 9 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, basically everything except for type eight. But those who are close to me definitely know that I'm a Four. Even how I present myself is very much dependent on what mood I'm in. 

Once I learned about the subtypes, that's been a pretty big game changer because apparently the growth path for each type, for the counter type that's supposed to go the opposite direction..

It's been quite an interesting ride. 

Fours are generally known to be very emotional but very open and expressive and melodramatic. Self Preservation Fours go the opposite direction in that they need to actually learn how to open up about their feelings, which is really hard for me.

Strengths and Weaknesses

Melissa: It's interesting that you say that too, with the counter types. That's something that I've only looked into very minimally because Beatrice Chestnut’s book is so extensive. I actually skimmed through the whole thing and really honed in on the type Three.

To be able to address that is something I'm not going to cover in these videos just because it is a whole nother beast. If you're into the Enneagram and you want to go really, really deep, that's a great place to look. Especially if you feel like none of these numbers fits you  perfectly.

With that, being a type Four, how have you seen the type Four, strengths, weaknesses come out in your day-to-day life? Pre-Covid now also being in this Covid world that we live in now?

How has that looked for you personally? 

Joanne: The core themes for the Four are around emotions and around suffering. Fours tend to use suffering as a source of their identity. They kind of use it as a security blankie, and when things are calm on the outside Fours, freak out on the inside. There's a lot of chaos going on, and that's partially why everyone's super confused about them because there's a lot of things shifting internally.

Also, because Fours tend to be very self-referencing, their attention is focused inside themselves. So when Covid hit or when a lot of drastic changes happen for a Four’s life. Like life crises, someone passing away, getting fired from a job, et cetera. Yes, there's a lot of pain that comes from the circumstances, but compared to someone who's not a Four, Fours tend to be very chill.

Most of my clients in my therapy practice are Fours. And the interesting thing that I've noticed when we started getting into lockdown and everything was that all of my Four clients were like, “Yeah, this is uncomfortable and annoying, but okay, I guess we're just all kind of staying at home now.”

Whereas for everyone else, they were like, “I don't know what the hell is happening. I don't know who I am.” They're also having existential crises about their identity, their self-worth, et cetera. 

It's a double-edged sword when it comes to pain and suffering in that, because Fours are so used to it when hard things happen in life, it's kind of a speed bump for them. And they're able to attune to other people who are going through hard times better than perhaps other types autopilots. 

The downside is that they get stuck there. They overly do suffering, especially when things are good, they have an alert reaction to joy.

It's quite a pickle, especially when things are going pretty well and everyone else is like, “Well, why are you feeling so X, Y, z when all these good things are happening.” But that involves a Four dismantling their security blankie. So that's quite the tricky dynamic that their autopilot sets up. 

Fours and Emotions

Melissa: And I think that's something that's so important to talk about with the Four.

I think sometimes they can get a bad rap in saying, “Oh my gosh, they're overly emotional, they think so internally.” I think that's the thing that is unfortunate about that is that Fours are critical to have in life. They make amazing therapists because they're willing and okay and comfortable with sitting with someone in pain.

I'm sure people from the last two years have realized our world is going through a lot of grief right now, and people don't know how to handle it. But Fours do. You mentioned, they see the world through that lens already, and they're okay to sit with people that have lost someone to Covid or lost someone to any other type of loss. They're comfortable sitting in that uncomfortable space. 

I love that you've talked briefly about your course and what you cover in that, talking about those difficult emotions. Again, Fours are comfortable doing that, but a lot of us need help from Fours to allow ourselves to address anger, to address sadness. Normally for me as a Three, I hate looking at those emotions, but I have to, to be healthy and whole. 

What does that look like for you as far as growing in health and wholeness as a Four? Not just during Covid, but pre Covid?

Joanne: I would like to consider that we are all in our elements when we can have harmony between thinking, feeling, and doing. I think that Fours tend to be feeling dominant and then their thinking supports whatever they feel. Hence, there's a lot of fantasizing and they’re action repressed. Which means that sometimes when they're going through a hard time, the one thing that's needed is for them to actually take action but that’s what they tend to under do.

In being able to be more balanced and whole, they're better able to navigate through life. Other people and other autopilots tend to have the opposite where feelings are the ones that are repressed. So if all of us can learn how to integrate all these various modes that we have, then I think it could be a lot easier, there wouldn’t be this stress build up.

I think for the Fours in not just using their emotions as a way of gauging what kind of person they are. Instead seeing that it's one part of many ways of being. I think that perspective would probably help them be more untangled in a lot of their internal stuff. 

Emotions are kind of like our limbs. We have arms, we have legs, but we are not our arms or legs.

Emotions are the same way. If we can see them in their proper place with respect to other things that are also important in life, things would probably be a lot smoother

Melissa: In the course you talk about these emotions. I think that actually would be helpful for a Four to hear you talk about.

Can you talk briefly about that.

Joanne: Nowadays there's a bit more acceptance towards the realm of feelings with Brene Brown's stuff around shame and empathy. A lot of the current leaders focus on accepting emotions and sitting with it and then letting them go.

I think that's moving in a better direction. But it kind of implies that emotions are random like flies that you just need to ignore for some time and they'll just go about their merry way. 

Each emotion has their corresponding theme. If we pay attention to them well enough to know what the patterns are they can actually reveal a lot of what's really important at our core. Which is what we're needing and what we're wanting.

If we can suspend judgment around emotions, people get scared of the expression of it but it’s kind of like emotions are smoke detectors. People popping the smoke detector off the wall, taking out the battery and sticking it back on the wall because they're annoyed by the sound of it versus paying attention to what is the reason why this alarm is going off? 

If all the Enneagram types in noticing their emotional habits, if we can tune into what emotions tend to be overdone, what tend to be under done, it would come in real handy. Instead of our emotions revealing what's happening right here and now, our own patterns give us a quick tip as to where our Enneagram types might actually be getting us stuck. 

For example, Fours generally tend to overly do the negative emotions and under do the positive emotions of joy. Different subtypes do things a bit differently, but you know, compared to type Ones where they have a conflicted relationship with anger and they also downplay joy. With Sevens overdoing joy and downplaying some of the negative emotions. 

All the Enneagram types have their corresponding patterns and if we can find out what our types are it helps us to know what emotional needs are being downplayed. Also knowing our emotions can also help us find our types, as well. So it goes both ways. 

I hope that the way that people are understanding and using the Enneagram is to use it as a tool for self-discovery and personal work instead of how I often see it happening, especially on social media, where it's like find out your types so you know, what kind of latte is right for you, or what kind of job to look for, what kind of partner to be with, et cetera. That's a bit more simplistic and reductionistic. 

Melissa: That really sums up the intention that I've had with putting this series together. I think that if we can understand ourselves better, understand the people that we love better, then we're actually able to live in more healthy ways in our world. 

A big part of that, that I think Fours bring to the table, is they're more willing to look at those difficult emotions, like every other type should be doing but we don't want to because it's uncomfortable and painful.

I think that's where you see transformation and breaking of generational trauma and addressing past hurts. You need to address your emotions around things, understanding what caused you to feel this way so that you actually can take action. Not just to create a better future for yourself, but if you have kids for your kids and your whole family going on down the line. 

It's something that I really think Fours do so well, and I hope that encourages and inspires a Four if you're watching this. You're doing a great job and you're an incredible person. God's made you exactly the way you're supposed to be. And if you know a Four, learn from them. Sit with them a little bit, ask them questions.

Joanne: All the nine types also have their corresponding deadly sin and the opposite, which is known as their virtues.

Interestingly, the virtue for type Four is called equanimity. Which means having evenness and balance within our emotions. But the other definition is in seeing ourselves as equal with other people, and that is the part that's often missing for Fours in that their deadly sin is actually envy.  There's a lot of comparative dynamics to it. 

Once we're able to see that we are also good, not just flawed and broken. If we can see ourselves as both sinner and saint all in the same breath, then that actually helps resolve a lot of the painful experiences that we have in life. 

Personal Growth

Melissa: I want to take a shift to like the more personal, how have you seen understanding yourself as a Four? How has that helped you with your faith in God? How has that helped you to have more hope for the present and the future? How has that helped you to love other people better?

Joanne: Our emotional and our relational health have everything to do with each other. Part of the reason why I am a therapist and also I'm doing this course on emotions is because I'm doing a lot of my own personal work while in the midst of supporting people with their own.

As a self-referencing type, I've gotten into way too many situations, especially in my relationships, where I think I'm interacting with someone but I'm actually interacting with my idea of that person. While the person's sitting right in front of me. In doing so, I've missed out on a whole lot of things that were actually available to me.

As a Four I've lived a lot of my life thinking that I was not eligible for good things. In actuality what that really was is that I am like a horse with front facing blinders. The good thing is actually also right in front of me. It's just that I refuse to see because I am kind of addicted to the chase of trying to look for it out there somewhere.

Interesting thing about my journey as a Four and also my faith is in recognizing that I don't have to make myself better to be good. I am already good. Then from that space I can do awesome things. 

There's a lot of stuff around my identity and my worthiness that I kept getting stuck in growing up because I always felt like there's this one thing that I need, if only I could just achieve it. But even if I achieved that thing, I wouldn't feel any closer to feeling whole. 

In learning about the Enneagram, I found that a lot of it was suffering of my own making because I had this defense structure that insisted on not seeing the one thing that I actually have accessible to me. Which is my own goodness.

A lot of the past couple years has been me suspending my own inner critic and my judgment and learning how to go with how things actually are instead of what I think they ought to be. For example, if I have a birthday or a good thing happens, even though I have my internal reactions of the Fours,” No, I don't want to celebrate, I don't want to do the thing”. Recognizing that’s my ego trying to interfere with me growing. I've practiced saying, you know, I can feel however I feel and also I will still celebrate, or I will still enjoy whatever's right in front of me. 

Joy, rest, play. All those things for me are spiritual disciplines. They're not things that I naturally do for fun because that's a very foreign concept for me.

I think in that way the Enneagram has been really helpful in my personal healing and my growth.

Melissa: I think that's something I appreciate about Suzanne Stabile's book, “The Journey Toward Wholeness: Enneagram Wisdom for Stress, Balance, and Transformation”. She talks about how we need to make space and time for the things that don't feel natural to us. That's how we grow. For a Four that will look a lot like what you just said, taking time to rest, taking time to play, and allowing yourself to feel positively about yourself even if you may not believe that internally yet.

I think every type really can benefit from saying positive things about ourselves. Like I'm loved by God unconditionally, I'm created in God's image, God has a plan for my life. It's not dependent on our worthiness or our goodness even. Those are just promises of God and part of His character. 

I think it's just being able to embrace that we are loved. Maybe I'm taking this wrong but I think that's a common thread for Fours. That they don't often feel worthy of love or they feel flawed.

Joanne: The ironic thing is Fours are known to be authentic, and I think that their intention is to be such.

It's just that when you pick and choose what parts of you to reveal to the world and which parts of you to conceal, namely, shame, then you can't be authentic because authenticity means that you are how you are already. So the thing with Fours is when they say, “Hey, focus on the positive things.” Sometimes there's pushback saying, “Well, that feels fake.” 

I hear you. I don't want you to fake something, but what if, how you see life isn't actually fully accurate to begin with? If our biases towards the positive, then the way to have a more accurate perception of the world is to focus on negative data.

On the flip side, if your bent is looking towards the negative, then the way for you to have a more accurate perception of the world is to look towards the positive. I think there's a bit of resistance when it comes to connecting with the positive because for a person who's identified with this concept of suffering, it's like, if I'm not my own suffering or if I'm not my own pain well then what am I.

That's where there's a lot of really important work to be done in recognizing that we are not how we feel about ourselves. We are not how other people feel about us, but we are who we are, who we are. 

The word identity in the Latin literally means to repeat. It means basically that you are who you are, who you are already and still independently of what you go through in life, what you experience, your decisions you make, how other people see you. It's a lot of unconditionality that is built into that. 

Once we can recognize as Fours that there's nothing that we can do to eliminate unconditionality, it's really hard to get to, but once we can get there, then we don't have any pressure to try to be a certain way. Actually how other people think or feel about us is irrelevant because it doesn't change anything about our identity.

Final Tips

Melissa: I can really relate to that too. I think anyone that's in that heart triad, whether it's Twos, Threes, and Fours, all kind of battle so intensely with that, “What do people think and feel about me?” And that's a big thing I've had to work on. I think Covid really brought that to the forefront for me, recognizing, wow, you do a lot of stuff because you want people to think well of you and think highly of you. It was like once all of those things stopped, it was like, what is my value? 

I think every type really needs to take time to sit and think about that and process through where does my value come from? Is it internally? Is it from God? Is it from other people? Assessing how much of that is healthy and how much is unhealthy.

I think Fours when they're in that healthy space do a really good job about walking with people through that process of authenticity and becoming aware of the walls you maybe put up. The facade that maybe you put up to feel safe. I think Fours can do that really, really well.

Before we wrap up, do you have any final tips for the Four or maybe for someone that loves a Four? 

Joanne: I think what often gets attention when we think about Fours are feelings and there's a big thing that gets missed in the process, and that is our physical body. For Fours I would highly recommend that you do anything that involves moving your physical body, the five senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch.

Getting a massage has been one of the best things for me. Not just because it feels good. It's kind of a spiritual process as well where I'm opening myself up to receive good or to be very still instead of constantly moving and shifting. 

For the loved ones of Fours my best tip is to take them seriously, but not necessarily literally.

Kind of like in the book of Revelation, the author, the Apostle John, used words and he tried his best to describe this vision that he was seeing, and words were so limited and finite. I think that's the same for Fours where they're trying to describe something that's very ethereal and existential and abstract. They're doing their best with words, but sometimes it just doesn't cut it. 

So if you take them literally, you're going to get lost in the weeds because that's not particularly what they're trying to go for. 

Instead ask them, “Hey, right now, what do you need? Do you need a listening ear? Do you need a hug? Do you need company? Do you just need to talk it out? Or do you need problem solving? et cetera.” 

There's a children's storybook that I love. It's called “The Rabbits Listened” by Cori Doerrfeld. That will be a good book to have on your shelf if you desire to care for your Four well.

Melissa: I love that. And I think that's really a great tip for any number.

I feel like a lot of us that are in the problem solving types that we want to just say, “Okay, I hear you. What can I do?”

I think to be able to be intentional instead of first jumping to action asking, “Hey, What do you need right now?” I think that is a great tip for anybody that's listening, whether you know a Four or not.

What are the emotional habits of your Enneagram type?

Grab this free guide that highlights the patterns that keep you stuck and the next steps to grow beyond your type!

Don't know your Enneagram type? Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Reflections of an Enneagram Type 4 at an Inner Work Retreat

I wanted to share a little bit about some of the things that stood out to me personally at the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy's Retreat . You can watch the video below or keep scrolling to read the transcript.

My Inner Pendulum

As someone who's recently taken on the practice of yoga, whenever I sit cross legged on the floor, I visualize a pendulum that's inside of my heart. There's something about sitting upright and very still, quieting my self, my thoughts, my heart. It feels like the pendulum is very still, centered.

I was wondering why that imagery stood out to me. I am now realizing that it's because, as a Four, having a very internal turbulence and lots of moving thoughts and feelings and basically being everywhere else except where I am. That's the passion of envy.

My pendulum, on the inside, is always constantly moving. Shifting. Never quite still. Always seeking what's on the other side.

As we all do, we put outside what we feel on the inside. I realized that the vast majority of my life I've been living as if I'm this swinging pendulum, always on the extremes never settled, never steady.

So at this retreat this visual came up to me again.

Slow & Leisurely

Being at a very beautiful retreat center, I'm surrounded by trees and quiet, I decided to be very intentional and deliberate about moving. Like literally moving my body very slowly. So, when going on strolls around I imagined myself moving through molasses in a very steady and slow way, as if time was slowing down.

There's something that happened inside of me where I felt that pendulum being very still and I'm moving so slowly so that the pendulum stays centered and grounded and that felt so freaking good. To be very steady and still and quiet, not constantly on this chase.

In previous retreats I knew what I want to work on. I knew what I want to get out of it. I knew the things that I wanted to jump right into. Let's go, let's make it happen!

And this time around it was more like I don't have any particular thing that's stirring up inside of me, there isn't any particular thing I want to work on. That's not to say that I don't have things to work on, but in that moment, it felt as if I deeply feel okay and content where I am, as I am.

And I gotta say, that is not the typical experience that is attributed to Fours. That's how I knew that this was from outside of myself. It's not anything that I was particularly trying to conjure up. But maybe built on the foundation of all the work that I've done in prior years. Like maybe I am ready to be very present and centered.

Floating, Unanchored

The Type Four experience is like someone who is floating out into the middle of the ocean, and they have no idea which direction is which. Sometimes they go underwater. Sometimes they're above water. It's a lot of feeling lost or disoriented. Unanchored.

Another imagery coming up is like someone who's floating out in space. There's no up or down, left or right, and their tether or umbilical cord is severed. I think that's kind of what describes a lot of the Four experiences. Feeling very aimless, lost, constantly confused and disoriented. Not really feeling tethered or connected to anything and so constantly having this sense of needing to reconnect or to find that supposed connection that was lost.

I feel like I'm in a very different place right now. Or maybe a more accurate way of saying it is I feel like I have access to a different place.

What’s next?

I don't know yet if this is here to stay. If this is going to be the new baseline. But honestly, I never really thought that I could ever be here before. I always thought that I would be constantly needing to be on the chase for something outside.

I'm sharing this with you partially as a way for y'all to get to know me. A lot of people get the impression that I have all my shit together because of the work that I do or the things that people see on my website or my blogs or Instagram or whatnot. A lot of that has been out of a sense of this Self-Preservation Four like, "Let's go, let's get things done, let's make things happen!"

Seemingly effortless, but really striving

I've realized over the years that I've accidentally created this image for other people, especially those who are in the same industries, that I do things very effortlessly. That things come very easily and very naturally to me. Half the time when I do coaching calls with other fours they are like, “I don't know how you do what you do. It seems so polished and put together.” Internally I'm thinking, if only you knew just how much work I put into it.

I don't know what will come up in what I create as I choose into this state of being steady and connected. I'm hoping that a lot of the frenetic energy and this sense of, I better hurry up and do this or else. That state, I hope it will settle down a lot more.

What that means as to what all of y'all would be hearing from me, there's a possibility that I might change the pace, or the direction or, I don't know.

I don't have a whole lot of particular strategies or anything of what I want to write for y'all, but something in me tells me that maybe this is the direction to go in allowing myself to show up like this more often. Being a fellow traveler with you in your own journey, in your own growth process.

I have to share a lot more with you regarding different aspects of the Enneagram, and I don't want to share these things with you as someone who is like above or anything. Or set apart as if I've like mastered anything. It's more like here are some things that I've come across along the way in the ways that I've connected with this deeper truth.

And I hope that some things really resonate with you and call you towards whatever is your next step.

If you’re thinking about going to one of these Enneagram retreats for your own personal growth, here’s a blog about 5 ways the CP Enneagram Retreats can supercharge your growth.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Two Quick Tips to Be Assertive

The Value of Assertiveness in Relationships

Many of the people I work with (myself included) have trouble being assertive in relationships. We tend to focus our connections on empathy and meeting the needs of others, but that focus on the other OVER the self can really impact the relationship and yourself. Such a dynamic is what Kim Scott calls “Ruinous Empathy,” a dynamic that takes empathy so far that the relationship no longer has room for the self. Such relationships cultivate resentment and lead to easy burnout. (You can read more about Ruinous Empathy in my blog post on Radical Candor.) Practicing assertiveness is a tool for building BALANCED relationships where both YOU and OTHERS matter.

Tip #1: Use the Sentence: I am open to “____”; I am not open to “____.”

One way to be assertive is to use the sentence, "I am open to 'blank;' I am not open to 'blank.'" Sometimes when someone else makes a request or a demand of us, we might find ourselves feeling stuck between the options of:

• Saying YES, going along with their demand or request, OR

• Saying NO, where we're in the position of rejecting.

So, the template, "I am open to blank, I'm not open to blank," provides an alternative option. An example is if someone asks, "Hey, can we go to San Francisco and do X Y Z things." I might not be up to that because I tend to have low energy, so I may say, "Hey, I'm open to grabbing coffee for a couple of hours with you; I'm not open to spending the whole day in SF." That might be enough.

Instead of you being in a position of going with the other person's request exactly as it is or denying their request completely, you pitch a THIRD OPTION. Now there's room for negotiation here and that's totally okay. The idea is that you're not stuck in an all-or-nothing arrangement.

The converse can happen as well when you're making a request to someone else, and they're in a position of saying yes or no. If they say no, you can follow up with, "Well, what are you available to do?" You give them an opportunity to speak for themselves. That way, you don't just have two options. It opens up that conversation.

Tip #2: Don’t Over-Explain

The second way of being assertive is to NOT over-explain yourself. Now if you're like me and a lot of people that I work with, we tend to feel bad about putting forth our needs. We feel guilty or we're scared that the other person may say no or get mad, and when we finally muster up the courage to make a request, we provide this lengthy explanation as to why that request needs to happen or why it's a good idea.

It's totally understandable why people might feel the need to over-explain. The downside is the more you explain yourself, the more you actually dilute down the effect of your request. You water it down. So sometimes when you over-explain, the listener may have a harder time keeping track of what your initial request is. An example might be instead of saying "I'm not available on Friday,” you say something like "I'm not available on Friday because I need to go to the grocery store, because I need to gather all this food to prepare because my in-laws are coming tomorrow and they have high expectations.” The other person is like, well, that's way more much information than I needed.

The over-explanation might not be necessary and sometimes it's just generally good practice, especially if you have a hard time with boundaries, to hold back on sharing more than is actually concretely necessary for the question at hand. The main question is, "Are you available on Friday or not?" So instead of over-explaining yourself, stick to the point. Stick to the action item saying, "I am available on Friday," or "I'm not available on Friday," and notice how often you do over-explain and see what tends to happen in those conversations. More likely, the other person you're talking to may feel or sense that you are more defensive or you are more insecure because in effect you're kind of backtracking.

So, state the request very clearly or state the boundary very clearly. You don't owe anyone an explanation for anything, for any of your decisions. If you happen to be interacting with someone who tends to push boundaries, like they say, "Well, why?" Well, that might actually be a reflection of them being a less safe person than you thought they were, and that might be a signal for you to start dialing back for that very reason. If you're interacting with someone who demands to know the very reasons or justifications for your actions, that's kind of a sign that they don't really respect you all that much. So, to develop respect, instead of giving more of yourself, you give them less access to you; that's generally a good practice.

Being Assertive in Your Connections

So in summary, there are two quick ways of being assertive.

One is for you to say the sentence, "I am open to blank; I am not open to blank."

The second one is to watch when you over-explain yourself and practice dialing back.

You don't have to do a full 180; just practice dialing back 5% and then see what happens. Sometimes people might be okay with a simple yes or no. We don't know. So go test out these assertiveness tips and see how they might improve your relationships.

---

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Concentric Circles of Connection

Shifting Relationships

Every time we go through any major life event (positive or negative), it's good to check in with the nature of our current connections.

Such shifting points include:

• Getting a new job

• Starting or ending a relationship

• Upgrading to the “next level” of relationships

• Moving to another city, state, country

• The pandemic

• Losing (or gaining) a job

Sometimes we find out through life experience that our connections maybe aren't as sustainable as we might think of them to be. With some people, we may not actually be as close to as we would like.

Instead of constantly putting yourself out there and then feeling disappointed, or hurt, or realizing that your relationships are super imbalanced, it's good to do a check-in every now and then.

Ask yourself, "Is my connection with someone able to sustain the level of intimacy as I would like?"

The Concentric Circles of Connection

There are many different kinds of friendships. It's not a matter of “Yes, I have friends” or “No, I don’t have friends,” but “What kind of friends do I have?”

Imagine that there are several levels or tiers of friendships.

(The number of levels may change over time, but here’s one way of distinguishing them.)

View fullsize

• +: Positive experiences

• —: Negative experiences

Tier 1: BFFs (+++———)

At the innermost circle are those who are our Ride-or-Die people. These are the people who know ourselves the best, those with whom we can share our deepest darkest secrets with and they will show up.

The relationship is consistent day after day. They're going to be there for you, no matter what. They’ve explicitly made that commitment clear.

You've cultivated a lot of connection and trust and rapport, and they're also able to sustain the difficult emotions. So, it doesn't mean that you have an equal amount of positive and negative interactions with each other, but this is the depth of experiences that you share with them.

When the best and worst things happen, these are the people you call first.

Tier 2: Close Friends (++——)

These folks have demonstrated that they're trustworthy. They share in your personal hardships and also celebrate your wins. You can have great dinners and heart-to-heart talks.

You're still close to them and deeply enjoy their company, but they're not the first people you would call if something happens. (You’ll eventually catch them up when you do meet.)

Tier 3: Fun Friends (++—)

These are people with whom you have mutual interests and have fun. You might like going to concerts, play board games, or do wine tastings, but when something hard goes on in your life, they're nowhere to be found.

That doesn't mean that they're necessarily a bad friend, but they're just not in your inner circles. That’s okay.

It's important when we come across these kinds of connections that we release them from any expectations for us to rely on them, so that THEY don't feel trapped about what we're going through, and WE don't rely on people who are not readily available for us.

But we can still have a good time! Relationships don’t have to be all-or-nothing, eggs-in-one-basket, intensity-or-bust (Take heed, Enneagram Fours! Not all experiences we have in life are super serious and it's good to learn how to lighten up and to enjoy things.).

It’s good to have a wide range of relationships, even ones where surface-level convos are the norm and where activities serve as the core.

Tier 4: Neighbors (+—)

These people can be co-workers or literal neighbors—people you see pretty often. You know each other's names, how many kids or pets y’all have, generally what might be going on in each others’ lives, but you're not necessarily going to call them up to hang out all the time.

You might share, "Someone hit my car bumper last night, and I'm kind of feeling frustrated," or "Yeah, like my kid is about to do a major performance and super excited about it."

Sometimes, to avoid repercussions in your daily life, you may opt NOT to share things.

You might connect every once in a while, but mostly you see each other in passing, say hello, be polite, be gentle. Other than that, they're not necessarily involved in your lives.

Tier 5: Acquaintances (~)

These are people who are neutral and you don’t share much with at all, good or bad. You know of each other, from a distance. If you don’t hit it off, oh well. It’s not (necessarily) a problem.

Tier 6: Blacklisters (——)

These are people who have demonstrated over and over again that they are NOT trustworthy, and they hurt more than help. They often take way too taking up way too much space in the relationship. It’s all about them, and there’s little room for your own feelings or your experiences.

When you try to speak up for what you need, you get shot down or you get dismissed, minimized, gaslit, etc. As these people are toxic, it's generally good to have strong walls up and give them minimal information.

Sometimes these people are those who used to be your closest friends, and sometimes they're family members. It's really really hard and painful in those situations, but the cost for not putting up those boundaries is that you get more and more diminished.

Emotions like resentment, guilt, shame, anxiety are all evidence that someone who belongs in the outer tiers are too close to you. Sometimes they barge in, sometimes you give them an inch and they take a mile.

They may still be valuable as human beings, so they deserve a base level of human dignity (don't be mean to them), but don't give out your personal information (including what’s going on in your life) because they might use it against you.

These are people you interact with where afterwards you feel bad about yourself or your life. THESE ARE NOT YOUR PEOPLE; GTFO.

Is everyone in their rightful tiers?

To maintain health and longevity, do an audit of your current relationships. List 10 people you often see these days, and indicate what your general interaction is like with + and —.

• Tier 1 (BFFs): +++——— (can handle both strong positive and strong negative experiences):

• Tier 2 (Close Friends): ++—— (similar as BFF, but not first pick)

• Tier 3 (Fun Friends): ++— (mostly pleasant, but not as deep)

• Tier 4 (Neighbors): +— (neutral, frequent but surface level)

• Tier 5 (Acquaintances): ~ (neutral, little sharing)

• Tier 6 (Blacklist): ——— (consistently negative)

Plot these individuals onto the Concentric Circles chart (download here). What do you notice?

Some questions to think of:

1. Are there people who have more access to you than they deserve?
   If you keep experiencing more pain than good with someone (and they refuse to change), it might be time for you to bump them into outer tiers.
   This does not make them lesser of a person, but just relocates them to where the relationship can actually handle the level of intimacy. When people stay closer than they’re supposed to, that increases the risk that the relationship will implode or explode, resulting in that person being sent to the Blacklist.
   Find the right amount of intimacy that is sustainable.

2. Are there some people who have demonstrated trustworthiness that you can give more access to?
   Sometimes, those you never expected to be close to may become some of your closest people. Be open to trying out new levels of intimacy until you hit a limit - that might be the new equilibrium point for the next season of your life.

Changing Needs, Shifting Tiers

You may find that there are some people who kind of move back and forth between different tiers—that's totally okay!

Be open to having relationships of varying mobility. Remember, it’s not all-or-nothing.

As we change and grow in life, our needs and wants change. We need to shift our connections to match the new level of personal growth.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Therapy with Ibi - Anxiety, Insomnia, Relationships

Introducing…Ibinye Osibodu-Onyali, LMFT

Joanne: This week we have a special guest who is sharing about her practice today. Let’s just jump right in. Can you share about yourself, the things you love, what you focus on, a bit about your journey.

Ibinye: My name’s Ibinye. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist for women and couples in California. I like to focus on anxiety and insomnia. I also focus a lot on people who were raised in toxic environments—teaching them how to break those generational cycles, speak up for themselves, be assertive, and just live a life out of the box. I also help couples move their relationship from boring and feeling like roommates to actually feeling passionate and feel like lovers again.

Who Is Therapy For?

Joanne: During this pandemic period with things kind of rolling back, in your work with people, has there been one question that you’ve been getting asked often with that?

Ibinye: Yes, two questions actually.

1. “Can Black women go to therapy?” They usually whisper when they ask. “I’m Black, can I go to therapy? Is that a thing?” Yes! That’s a thing!

2. “Is it okay for Christian to go to therapy?” People want to make sure. And I’m like, “Yes! I’m a Christian! That’s fine. Yes, you can see me; you can talk to me.” There’s nothing unbiblical about therapy.

Joanne: A lot of hush hush. What do you sense that’s about?

Ibinye: It’s about the shame, the rules, the legalities, and the upbringing that says:

• Keep all your business within the church.

• Keep all your business within the home.

• Don’t tell anyone your problems.

With the faith-based shame, it’s this idea that if you have any struggles, if you’re anxious, if you’re depressed, if you’re crying, then you’re not reading your Bible, or you don’t have the holy spirit within you, or you’re clearly not going to church enough. Something’s wrong with you. There’s a lot of shame that I see.

How Therapy Works through Shame

Joanne: The message that something’s wrong with you, you need to be better, all the variations of that. And within your work of the people who reach out to you, how do you help them get unstuck from that? It’s great that they’ve already got unstuck enough to reach out, but how do support them?

With the Christians—for those that want Biblical-based counseling—we go into scripture. My favorite person that we talk about is David. He seems sad a LOT. He was struggling a lot, there was a lot going on with him, his life isn’t perfect, yet we read that he was anointed by God. Then they’re like, “wait a minute, that’s true.” Then it’s okay to seek out help.

For intergenerational stuff, I ask them some questions about their relationships and families. Things like:

• Let’s look at your grandma’s relationship with grandpa, or grandma’s relationship with mom.

• How has that worked out for them?

• How has that worked out for you?

• What you’ve been doing for the past 50 years, 40 years, 30 years, does it feel like it works well for you?

A lot of times they’ll respond with, “No—even though that’s the way I was raised and I’m just trying to walk the line, it doesn’t really work well for me.” I say, “Well, would you be open to trying something that possibly could work for you.” And they’re like, “Yeah, as long as you don’t tell my mom!” Legally, I can’t tell your mom anything anyway, so you get to do whatever you get to do. As they get to start trying new things, they find they start feeling a lot lighter and a lot happier. The anxiety isn’t feeling so heavy anymore and their families get used to their new behavior like, “Okay, I guess this is how she is now.”

Joanne: I kind of imagine that with a lot of these entrenched patterns or ways of experiencing and responding to life, it would be great if families responded well with, “Oh this is how it’s going to be going forward,” but I imagine there are some people who don’t have that experience. For those folks whose families or communities are not as supportive, what would you say to them?

Ibinye: We talk about the depth of tradition and how difficult it is to break from tradition. Everyone is just trying to play this role, whether it’s a church role, cultural role, racial role, whatever that is. I talk to them about finding support from like-minded people. I think that’s so important because sometimes your family or your church or religious body is not your support system. Sometimes they are the ones who are doing harm to you. Sometimes they’re the ones that trigger a lot of the difficult emotions you are going through. I empathize with them and help them understand that those are very common patterns, unfortunately. But outside of that, I ask questions to get them thinking about new connections:

• Who are the people who are adding people to your life?

• Who are the people who are filling your cup?

• Who is helping you feel great?

Those are the people to run to. I don’t say cut off your family or stop going to church, but how about building new relationships? Once they start to experience what those positive relationships look like, it really helps in the healing process. It doesn’t mean that everything is going to end with a bow wrapped on top of it. There’s still a lot of grief work left to be done. But they realize the pain of staying in that tradition is sometimes much greater than the joy of finding this new life and finding your voice and new ways of being, and just being yourself.

What Are Toxic Relationships?

Joanne: In a lot of moments, there are some terms that people have a certain understanding of, and I think toxic relationships are one of those words. They have some idea in their mind of what it looks like, but it might be more much multifaceted and varied. Same with anger—that it’s not just always the rage-y explosive types. There are so many other ways anger can show up. So how would you define and describe toxic relationships? What does it tend to look like in the people you work with?

Ibinye: Toxic relationships FEEL DAMAGING. They are relationships that feel uncomfortable and they often feel like they’re being done maliciously. Very often when clients come to see me, I ask about family relationships, like “how is your relationship with family members?” They say “Fine, everything’s fine.” And then after a while, they describe toxic relationships they’re in without realizing it. Things like:

• Every time I leave this person’s presence, I feel exhausted.

• I can’t wear that to this person’s house because she’s going to make a bad comment.

• I have to change who I am.

• I have to be extra quiet when I’m in the presence of this person or else she’s going to say something negative.

Decorative. A child has duct tape over their mouth.

It’s almost like feeling like you cannot be authentic, you can’t be you in the presence of someone, feeling drained after you leave that person. That’s how people typically experience toxic relationships, and sometimes it’s not even overt. Sometimes people aren’t actually saying direct things or throwing direct jabs. It might be a look, a glance, a whisper, or a passive-aggressive comment that they make constantly. You feel like you’re drowning when you’re around them, and nobody around you can see that. Or sometimes it feels like you’re drowning and they’re the ones who pushed you to the deep end and they’re standing there with their arms crossed like, “Oh well, let’s see if she can get herself out of this.”

Joanne: Are there instances where someone’s in toxic relationships and they don’t know?

Ibinye: All the time. We think that you cannot love someone who feels toxic to you. Sometimes it’s the very people that we love. It could be spouses, best friends, family members, people in your religious organizations, coworkers, bosses you respect—anyone around us can exhibit toxic behavior. So I often say, go by that feeling that you get:

• You can’t hold your head up high.

• You feel exhausted when you’re around them.

• You feel like you have to put up a show or put up an act when you have to be with that person.

If that’s what you feel when you’re around a person, then something’s off about that behavior. But I always say don’t tell people that they’re toxic. Like, don’t walk up to your mom and say, “Dear mom, you’re toxic.” It’s not going to go well.

Joanne: One of the things I’m hearing is one sign that of whether you’re in a toxic relationship is how you feel while anticipating meeting with a person or how you feel during and afterward. Are there people who feel numb?

Ibinye: Absolutely. Some people feel nothing when they’re with toxic people. Other times you find that there’s lots of jealousy and competition in toxic relationships. So there sometimes will not be this spirit of cooperation that we all want to be able to have, that support around us. In toxic relationships, it’s almost like somebody has to be in charge. There’s a dynamic of power and control sometimes where somebody always has to get the last word in; it’s difficult to agree to disagree.

Sometimes there’s this back and forth of:

• “You’re wrong and I’m right.”

• “But are you open to—?”

• “No, I’m not open.”

Or there’s the thing with tradition:

• “This is how it’s always been.”

• “But that’s hurting me.”

It’s shutting down those feelings saying they aren’t real. “It’s not my fault you’re sad. You’re sad because something’s clearly wrong with you and you’re too sensitive. If you learn to stop being sensitive, you won’t be sad when I make these aggressive comments to you.”

Joanne: I’m hearing that one sign that someone might be toxic is that they’re so rigid and one-sided, not open to hearing the other person’s experiences, let alone validating them, controlling, telling the other person what to do, the other person doesn’t have a say, their feelings don’t matter, their emotions don’t matter, etc. What does someone do when they find out that they’ve been doing those things?

Ibinye: Sometimes that’s how we’re raised and that’s what we see around us, so that’s just what we do. It’s not easy because if you’re used to that dynamic of being cutthroat and cutting people down—all of those difficult behaviors—then I say, “Okay, take a moment to pause and think how would you feel if that were done to you.”

The interesting thing is even when you exhibit toxic behaviors, you don’t enjoy it when the behavior is done back to you. You don’t feel warm and fuzzy when someone has that aggressive interaction with you. Even though that’s all you know, it doesn’t feel great on the inside. So take a moment and pause. I ask, “How would you feel if someone did that to you?” And they’ll say, “I’d be upset and I’d attack them back.” Okay, if that behavior triggers that big emotion back in you, then maybe let’s think of another way to talk about this.

We do a lot of practice in assertive communication as opposed to aggressive communication. We also talk about making amends because it’s very important. Not necessarily in the AA way, but it’s okay to take responsibility for your behavior. It’s okay to go back and apologize and say, “I noticed that I’ve been damaging to you, toxic to you, hurtful to you. I noticed that you’ve felt uncomfortable in my presence and I’m sorry.” We also talk about “I” statements. Not “because you’re so sensitive, that’s why I was so damaging to you.” No, we can’t do that. How to really talk and communicate with people and to attune with other people’s emotions we learn how to do some of those things.

Joanne: So some signs of someone who is not toxic and who is safe and quality are those who are able to consider another person’s experiences, their own impact on the other person, being able to articulate their own experiences (those “I statements”), and—I think this is a pretty significant one—taking responsibility for your own stuff. The world would be so different if more of us knew how to do that.

Ibinye: Absolutely. You don’t have to be perfect. So, safe does not equal perfect. Nobody is perfect. We make mistakes and mistakes are quite okay. I find when people are raised in toxic environments, it goes hand-in-hand with perfectionism because if you’re anything short of perfect, you will be attacked or shunned or something will happen to you that won’t feel good. So there’s this idea of “I need to be perfect because I don’t want anyone to say anything negative about me, I don’t want to be the butt of anyone’s jokes, I don’t want anyone to look down on me.” It’s about learning that imperfections are just a part of the human experience. Some things you do great, some things you don’t do great, and that’s okay.

Joanne: So perfectionism can be a way that a person is trying to take care of themselves, but it usually doesn’t lead to that outcome.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia

Joanne: You and I could talk about toxic relationships all day because that’s my jam too. Relationships, emotions, all that. But I noticed you focus on other areas as well, like insomnia and supporting couples in their relationships. Could you share a bit more about each of those?

Ibinye: With insomnia, I do cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) for it. The idea behind it is, the way you think about sleep can greatly affect your sleep. The people who struggle with sleep have a lot of anxiety behind their sleep, and all day long, they think, “I wonder if I’m going to sleep” or it’s negative, “I know I’m not going to sleep tonight.” Sometimes they walk into their room, see the bed, and think, “I’m going to be tired tomorrow.” Already thinking future-focus negative thoughts about sleep, which stirs up anxiety and most of us cannot sleep when our bodies are under that kind of sleep. Or you’re laying in bed and willing yourself to sleep. “I’m closing my eyes really tight and I will force my body to shut down.” These unconscious thoughts and behaviors unbeknownst to us are increasing insomnia. With CBT insomnia, I teach clients how to create a great sleep environment, how to change behaviors so they can support sleep, and how to work on those unconscious, automatic thoughts, so we can start to think positive, sleep-promoting thoughts.

Joanne: I should’ve done this Live with you a couple of days ago because I could’ve prevented this last night! Trying harder to sleep makes it worse! I know that you have a useful resource you’ve put together, can you talk about that?

Ibinye: I have a free download and it’s just five myths that are keeping you awake and how you can finally sleep. 5 myths most people with insomnia believe are the golden truths about sleep—those are typically keeping us awake, and then I answer, “let’s debunk this myth” and here’s how you can finally sleep.

Couples Therapy: How to Love and How to Communicate

Joanne: And what’s been fun about working with couples?

Ibinye: I enjoy working with couples because when they come to me, they are like, “we are not communicating, we are arguing all the time, but we want this to work.” Or sometimes one person is like, “I don’t know, I’m on the fence” and one person is like “I really want this to work.” It’s really about teaching them how to respect one another, how to find friendship again, and how to communicate. That is key. How to communicate, how to respect one another, how to see your partner, and how to love your partner how your partner wants to be loved, not the way you think they need to be loved. I think a lot of couples get into trouble with that one.

Joanne: What is an exercise you might do with a couple that comes in having trouble loving the other person well?

Ibinye: I always point to the 5 love languages. They take the quiz on the 5 love languages together so that they can understand what each love language is, and then in session, we talk about the results of the quiz and each partner will explain examples of things that fill their cup. Some questions I ask them are:

• What are some things that your partner does that you truly enjoy? (We always try to play to each person’s strengths and things that ARE working. It’s not about, “You don’t know your partner and you’ve dropped the ball.”

• What are some things that your partner is already doing that really excited you and make you feel seen? (Then we talk about how the partner can do more of that.)

• What are some other things your partner can do?

• Then I go to the other partner and ask, “So, now that you’re hearing their perspective, what are two things things that you think you can do that can make your partner happy and loved?” And then that’s their homework.

Couples are typically busy and cannot find time, so I encourage them to prioritize “couples time” by pulling up their phones and putting it in their calendar. We also set rules together, but I don’t set the rules for them. They set the rules for themselves. Some of those rules might look like:

• No phones

• No social media

• You have to sit with me

• You have to hold my hand

Once everyone is in agreement, I teach them how to speak up for themselves, how to communicate, and then it’s always about validation. We talk about how to validate each other even when they don’t agree with each other. I also normalize that disagreements are going to happen. Because you are a couple doesn’t mean you have to be one mind and love all the same things. But everything doesn’t have to be an argument. If one person loves red, one person loves blue, “It’s fine. Okay, I can see how you love red; I happen to love blue.” It’s fine and doesn’t have to be an argument.

The Five Love Languages

Joanne: Can you go over the five love languages?

Ibinye: Love languages aren’t just for people who are coupled up. They are for kids, for coworkers, friends, loved ones. All humans have love languages, which is just the way they like to be loved.

• Quality time. It’s basically spending time with your partner but in a way where your partner is attuned with you. People who’s love language is quality time, they like people to spend time with them where you’re actually looking at them, you’re chatting with them, listening to them, and that’s how they also love other people.

• Acts of service. “You made my bed for me, you brought my meal to for me, you fixed my bike for me.” Doing things for the other person. They don’t have to be huge tasks, just simple things like “I loaded the dishwasher today.” perfect!

• Touch. That would be people who are huggers, people who love to kiss, hold hands, and things that just feel physically. You can tell kids whose love language is physical touch—they’re the ones who’ll come and give you a hug. Some people when they talk touch your arm lightly or tap you—that’s physical touch.

• Gifts. When we think of gifts typically, when I have a couple do the quiz and one of them gets gifts, the other partner is “Oh my gosh, this is about to get expensive.” no! It doesn’t have to be expensive. It doesn’t even have to be something you buy. Just the thought behind it that knowing your loved one has spent time crafting or getting something for you. It can even be mixing them a drink and giving it to them.

• Word of affirmation. People who want to hear that you love them wanna hear that they’re doing a great job, that you’re proud of them. So, your words are affirming them, loving them, validating their emotions.

Typically I find that couples have different love languages. One could have acts of service and one could have quality time. That’s why it feels like “I don’t feel loved” or “you don’t love me, you don’t appreciate me.” Typically, we love people and show our love in our own love language, so once we learn how to speak our partner’s love language, then they feel like they’re seen and loved.

Joanne: So it’s a way of turning into a person for how they actually are, not how we think they are or how we think they should be. It leads to an acknowledgment and accepting the other person.

Therapy and Therapist Misconceptions

Joanne: So when it comes to the process of therapy, what are some of the myths or misconceptions about therapy that you’ve heard?

Ibinye: I’ve heard a LOT.

• Therapy is judgmental.

• Your therapist will tell you what to do.

• Your therapist will shame you and judge you.

• Therapy is exactly like talking to a friend, so what’s the point? They aren’t going to teach you anything.

• If you go to a therapist, then they’ll put you on medication, and then you’ll be on medication for the rest of your life.

• Therapists just want to stick you to a very strict diagnosis.

I think sometimes how TV portrays therapists, people are surprised that I laugh a lot or they didn’t expect me to be this nice. I’ve heard people be worried that I will tell everyone their business and put it on social media. No! There’s confidentiality'; I don’t do that.

Joanne: So what would you say therapy is?

Ibinye: Therapy is a process of getting you to where you want to be. The reason I’m keeping it so vague is because we don’t tell you where you need to be. The way I work is; I ask what you would like your life to look like in 6 months or a year, they tell me, and we work towards that. We start by exploring different aspects of their lives:

• What would you want your social relationships to look like?

• What would you like to feel when you wake up in the morning?

• We talk about career. What do you feel is standing in your way?

It’s a process of really getting to know yourself. A process of getting to heal difficult emotions that keep us stuck or afraid or stagnant. Learning how to create relationships with yourself and with those around you so we can learn how to thrive. I know it’s sort of nebulous how I’m describing it, but that’s the best description I can come up with.

Joanne: There’s such diversity in individuals anyway. Everyone’s goals and desires are different and there’s no need to pigeonhole people into one way of growing or healing. For example, one person’s work could be how to do anger less or how to have better ways of doing anger, but for another person, it might be how to practice anger more. Either one could be really healing for a particular person and their relationships. What other resources do you have available apart from?

Ibinye: Currently, I am enrolling for the women of color online support group. It started because when the pandemic hit, I kept hearing from women of color say, “I just feel alone. I feel like there’s so much going on and I have no one to talk to.” But they weren’t just talking about seeing a therapist, they were talking about a community of women who knew what they were going through. So, it’s a place where they don’t have to be so perfect and don’t have to be the caretaker all the time.

You get to sit, connect with other women of color who understand some of the struggles you are going through, get to support you through it. We tackle different topics; we talk about race and racism and how to maneuver that. Of course, we aren’t going to solve racism in 8 weeks, but we talk about how to maneuver that so it doesn’t feel like something that’s strangling you all the time. We talk about ways to take care of yourself. What can self-care look like? How to build self-care, self-confidence, and how to ask for help because most of the majority of the women that I talk to do not ask for help ever. It’s an 8-week group, we meet once a week for 8 weeks and you just leave feeling like some of the burdens have been taken off your shoulders. That’s why it’s called Lay Down Your Burdens.

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

 

 

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Moving on from Toxic Relationships

Here’s a video about moving on from toxic relationships. Melissa Moore from the podcast “Faith Hope Love with Melissa Moore” invited me to talk about dealing with trauma. Scroll down for a transcript. Follow Faith Hope Love on Youtube.

What is a Toxic Relationship?

I’ll start from what a healthy relationship is and then work backward. If we think about ourselves as images of God, everyone is SO DIFFERENT even though we’re all uniquely created. We’re given reflections of different aspects of God. Some of us reflect back His passion, some of us reflect back His holiness. With each of our differences, it’s not necessarily meant to be opposed to each other. It doesn’t have to be an either/or arrangement. IT CAN BE BOTH. So we think about healthy relationships through that vantage point. These connections are one where there’s ENOUGH ROOM in the connection for each person to be themselves. Have their own needs, own values, own opinions, and still be powerful sons and daughters in the Kingdom.

If there isn’t enough room in those connections for each person, this is how we go down the toxic relationship route. There are two different options (although we tend to see one as an example of toxic relationships more than the other):

1. APATHETIC Relationships

2. ENMESHED Relationships

Apathetic Relationships

When there isn’t enough room in our connections for both people to be fully themselves, then sometimes there’s enough “room” in the relationship by both parties going off and doing their own thing. In a marriage, for example, that might be a couple living under the same roof as if they’re roommates, but they don’t spend a lot of time together.

This could also be with other kinds of connections, like family members where there’s barely any interaction throughout the year until the holidays roll around. And when the holidays roll around, it’s super awkward. So that is an example of a relationship where there isn’t enough room for them to coexist at the same time. Because there’s not a lot of interaction, there isn’t really a knowing of each other or revealing of oneself.

That type of relationship is what I call an “apathetic relationship.” There’s a huge wall between the two people and both parties are going off in opposite directions. The main message is, “I am me; you are you. There’s no we.” That is an example of a toxic relationship, but it doesn’t usually get labeled as one because it isn’t usually labeled as a relationship. But when there are situations where the connection is forced, for example, with family, that’s how it shows up.

Enmeshed Relationship

The second example of a toxic relationship is what often gets called an “enmeshed relationship.” Sometimes, though, that word enmeshed gets used to describe different relationships that are more culturally informed and more collectivistic. In certain parts of the world, there’s more of an emphasis on society as a whole or the collective. Through our Americanized/Westernized individualistic lens, that gets labeled as being bad. It’s not bad. I want to make that distinction between enmeshed and collectivistic.

What I mean by the “enmeshed dynamic” is when two people are in close quarters and there isn’t enough space between. There’s not enough space for each of them to be. Think of two circles where one is kind of swallowing the smaller one. A lot of ANXIETY, GUILT, SHAME, ANGER, FRUSTRATION—that’s the emotional evidence that there’s way too much fusing of the two people and there’s a lot of reactivity. Each person is not allowed to have their own opinions, but they’re kind of eyeing at the other person to see what they’re going to do.

Often when people think of toxic relationships, they think of this latter group of enmeshed relationships where there’s a lot of controlling, yelling, screaming, throwing objects. Yet, even within that enmeshed dynamic are things like guilt-tripping or not allowing the other person to have time with their own friends, etc.

So, this is a spectrum; there’s not categorical difference. It’s just that more often than not in a “toxic” couple, it’s likely that one person is leaning more towards enmeshed and one leans more toward apathetic. So in other words, we call this the PURSUERS and WITHDRAWERS. This is a common couple that shows up in couples’ therapy where one person is like, “we need to spend all of our time together,” and the other person is like, “we don’t need to spend all of our time together.” Usually, they come in a set.

Everyone Has Their Own Individual Needs

I work with a lot of healers, and there’s a reason for that. It’s because how they serve others often is a reflection of them trying to do their own trauma work. They just do it accidentally. Because of their own families of origin or childhoods, they haven’t been given a lot of experience of having their needs recognized as valid and being given space and permission to cultivate their individuality.

These individuals find their worth and value being very much connected with how they connect with other people. So, BURNOUT, RESENTMENT, feeling GUILTY about doing self-care—those are the common reasons why people reach out to me. It’s not because they want to be a better healer per se, but it’s because they’ve done that too much to the point of depleting themselves. However, they still have needs, and that might be a rude awakening for them. So, in their work with me, we unpack like, “okay there are some relationship dynamics that have been celebrated in your family of origin or maybe all of society, and that’s not sustainable.”

So how do we go from whatever your relationship dynamic is (enmeshed or apathetic) where there isn’t enough space for both of you, to shifting towards and creating a different kind of relationship where there is space for both of you to fully exist in your individuality. Neither party is inherently good or bad, but when there is empathy or connection, it’s a true connection. It’s not a result of someone having to sacrifice themselves for the other party’s needs.

Using Outside Information to Understand the Self

The healers who reach out to me tend to be depleted because they’re doing two people’s work instead of just their own and having their partner or family member or friend do their own respective work. That part is super hard because their bodies have been trained to OVERLY take on responsibility. That’s a conversation in of itself, but it is a way for the person to feel in control in some sense, but they accidentally end up stealing the other person’s opportunity to do their own work and grow.

We tend to connect with other people in the way that we're used to in life, so it’s really hard to change ourselves and our ways when we’re using ourselves as a reference guide. It’s not going to work because the reason why we got to where we are now is because we got here by consulting ourselves.

Often, anything that involves a person learning or gaining information from the outside—books, podcasts, seminars, therapy, other relationships, etc.—are all fantastic ways by which we get to learn about ourselves.

To give you an example, I am a first-born, second-generation Korean American, meaning my family moved to the States from Korea, and I thought for the longest time that it was totally normal for dads to live part-time in the States and part-time in Korea. In Korea, there’s a word for this, it’s called “albatross dad.” A lot of it happens to be when the father is like a traveling professor or based on work. I thought that was super normal until I was in college, Thanksgiving was about to come around, and my friends were telling me what they were going to do with their family. It was the weirdest thing hearing them say they’re going to hang out with their dad. I was like, “how does that make any sense.”

Sometimes we learn more about ourselves when interacting with other people or gaining information from the outside.

Resources to Help You Move on from Toxic Relationships

There are some books/resources I recommended. The two favorite ones are called Safe People written by Henry Cloud and John Townsend (the same people who wrote the book on boundaries) and Radical Candor written by someone who worked on a lot of companies in Silicon Valley.

Radical Candor is when a person is able to have HIGH REGARD for BOTH themselves and others at the same time. And when one is missing, you get one of the other three arrangements. Those three arrangements are:

• Obnoxious aggression—when there’s only room for one’s own needs and not for others.

• Insincere manipulation—when a person is neither particularly caring about themselves or the other person.

• Ruinous empathy—where there’s a high regard for other people, but very low regard (fi at all) for themselves. This group is mainly the people I work with.

All three of those don’t fall in the radical candor category. Part of the work that they do in therapy is to learn how to balance out how to regard for themselves just as much as they do for other people. Often the fear is “if I take care of myself, I’m taking away from other people. No, you’re taking care of yourself JUST AS MUCH AS you do for other people.

There’s some retraining from messages they’ve picked up growing up or from their own churches or society at large. A lot of women and minorities fall into that category. It is an example of empathy is not always a good thing in the same way that hope is not always a good thing. There are healthy ways of doing it; there’s an unhealthy way of doing it. In the same way, there are definitely unhealthy ways of doing guilt and anger (which is how most people know them), but there are instances where anger and guilt are absolutely necessary.

Rounding out the full spectrum of emotions, considering oneself as just as important as the other person, it’s not EITHER/OR, it’s BOTH/AND—Safe People and Radical Candor are my go-to resources for that.

Process of Cultivating Healthier Relationships

Transitioning from toxic relationships to cultivating healthier ways of maintaining connections is a very gradual process. If people could simply choose healthy relationships, they would’ve done it already. It’s a very gradual process because our own bodies resist sudden changes. It’s the reason why dieting programs don’t work.

It’s an equilibrium point where healthy people are not drawn to unhealthy people and unhealthy people aren’t drawn to healthy people for very different reasons. Healthy people aren’t drawn to unhealthy people because it’s too chaotic; unhealthy people aren’t drawn to healthy people because it’s too boring. People have a very visceral reaction internally, where sometimes—even for people who lean more towards unhealthy even though they’re wanting to grow—their bodies RESIST something that would be more lifegiving because the nervous system has been so trained to object that upfront as a way of preventing an even deeper, scarier, pain.

I work with a lot of ruinous empathy, a lot of healers, a lot of compassionate responsible types. A lot of people have opportunities to choose a healthy relationship where the other person really cares about them, but they turn that down because it’s scarier for them to be an actual healthy relationship because what happens if it falls apart? That means it confirms that “nobody is going to love me.” That happens on a very subconscious level; it’s not something people deliberate, but that’s the degree to which there’s such deep physiological wiring within the brain.

In the last episode, we talked about how the brain isn’t just one brain, the thinking part, but it’s also the emotional and reflexive part, all these parts are interconnected, so you can’t just pick and choose what to focus on. Some people will have very visceral reactions where they push away good things. This probably shows up in the way people do their own faith relationships with God. God is trying to give them all these good experiences, but the person is like “no, I’m unworthy” and reject it upfront. So you can take the relationship with God as a significant attachment relationship, so the stuff I’m talking about applies there too. It’s fascinating especially with Christian circles how much that ruinous empathy piece kicks in. It’s not healthy y’all. There is something that’s far, far, greater and deeper, but we’ve assumed that that is what is healthy.

Toxic Relationships in the Bible

I think there are many more examples of toxic relationships in the Bible than there are healthy ones. I do want to quickly touch on the fact that toxicity doesn’t mean the same thing as abuse. There is a kind of toxicity in relationships, and it’s called neglect. Oftentimes abuse and neglect get lumped together in one, but they are very different. Abuse is the PRESENCE of a BAD thing; neglect is the ABSENCE of a GOOD thing. We must consider both of those things at the same time.

Let’s consider the first book of the Bible, Genesis. I think the bulk of that book is about Joseph. We cover several generations of his family—Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Joseph at the end. I think that’s one of the clearest examples of there being so much drama between family members. There’s lying, cheating, favoritism, exclusions, rivalry, competition, all kinds of stuff. That happened because each generation didn’t do their personal work.

Now, these are the fathers of the faith, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, people will speak very highly of them, but actually, the chapters that describe what happened in the subsequent generations is because the previous generations didn’t do their work. There are patterns in these dynamics, like lying, cheating, etc. So when it comes to Joseph, I think his experience shows why it’s so important for people to do their own personal work and what happens afterward.

We see Joseph after he has been sold by his brothers and spent all this time completely cut off from his family. His parents thought he was dead, but in seeing and reconnecting with his brothers as the second in command in all of Egypt, I think if I was in his position, I would’ve made some very different decisions with all that power. There could’ve been moments of retaliating and punishing, and I wouldn’t blame him. But there is one particular section where it talks about how he sent his brothers out, and he just cried. I would say he probably wasn’t crying solely because he was sad, crying isn’t just about sadness, he was probably full of rage, full of hurt, feeling hopeless and powerless, and he wrestled with God when he was thrown into the hole in the ground and into the prison, he had a really rough life. In each of those moments, he struggled with God like, “how do I make sense of this awful thing that happened” that he had no control over and nothing to do with. The worst thing he did was maybe brag to his brothers that he had a cool coat. There’s nothing that he’d experienced that was warranted from what he did when he was a child.

By the time we get to the end of Genesis and before we read about his sons going forward, there’s that scene that’s so moving about how he was so struggling internally while he was trying to do the right thing. If I were to choose any Bible story to highlight why therapy is so important, it would be that. It’s saying that you have a responsibility to shift how things go going forward. It is not your fault that you experienced all this stuff, but you technically have power and influence in what happens going forward, so will you take that shot or not? That’s the big question a lot of people are presented with, especially for parents.

Tools for Understanding Your Relationship History

A big part of helping people through toxic relationships is helping them understand their relationship history. Most people will be able to recall certain events that have happened in their life, but they will probably consider those events in isolation and unrelated. There are a few exercises I do for this. One is the Top 10 list. They write down their top 10 best memories and top 10 worst memories. They put it all on a single sheet of paper, and after they’re all done, they zoom out and see if there are any patterns between those different events. Because sometimes, when we’re stuck in our ways, it’s hard to tell how those things influence us.

They put those things on a Life Timeline, positive memories above, negative memories below. It gives them a bird’s-eye-view. It helps people draw connections that were always there but just didn’t show up in the same way as they do in these exercises.

Similarly, there is another exercise called the genogram, which is a fancy family tree. Instead of writing down names, there’s information regarding different individual traits—each member of the household, parents’ generation and grandparents’ generation, any big events that any of the family members went through, things like immigration, wartime experiences, traumas of actual events or growing up in a very harsh neighborhood, etc. All those things get added onto this diagram that reveals also the relationship dynamics between individuals. It’s a very visual image.

I have one for Ross Geller to see how there are so many things that are going on between different members that are not always visible. It’s not always a physically explicit event, but when grandpa shows up, everyone turns their heads elsewhere. Those things, when we see it in visual form, it’s like, “okay now I can take my genogram and next time I see my family for Thanksgiving it’s like, oh yeah, there’s a lot of stuff happening that never occurred to me because this is the air that I breathed growing up.”

These are the exercises are super helpful so instead of me telling people what to do differently, unless they know how they’ve been up to this point, it’s really hard to change what you don’t know. The other two resources, the Safe People and Radical Candor books are other frameworks for people to locate themselves and know what to do going forward.

In the last post, I talked about the Enneagram, which people may have mixed feelings about, but it’s one of the ways by which I’ve supported people connected with their core needs, fears, experiences, it’s also what happens in our physical bodies on a nervous system level.

I have videos about relationships and I have a blog page filled with posts about relationships. So, if you’ve connected with some of the things in this discussion today, check out those resources.

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JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Moving on from Trauma

Here’s a video about moving on from trauma. Melissa Moore invited me to talk about dealing with trauma on the podcast, Faith Hope Love in the Momentum Series. Scroll down for a transcript. And follow Faith Hope Love on Youtube.

Defining “Trauma”

My definition of “trauma” is broader than how it’s formally utilized in the mental health spaces, and part of that is because a lot of the people I work with haven’t necessarily experienced what people consider to be “big traumas” like car accidents or parents divorcing. Since many of these individuals are internally oriented, a lot of them are Highly Sensitive People, etc.

I define “trauma” more openly, so it’s not just the big “T” “Trauma” like those really big, observable events on the outside, but also it could be a LONG, EXTENDED PERIOD OF IRRITATION OR AGITATION. So for example, someone grows up in a home where nobody really acknowledges emotions, or where there’s a lot of criticism. If a person has grown up living and breathing that as the norm, they just assume that that is the normal experience. It’s not until they interact with someone who’s grown up in an entirely different environment where they’re like, “Oh, wait.” Then they look back on their own experiences and redefine or redescribe what they’ve been through.

If I have a formalized definition of trauma that I use with my own clients, I would say that it’s any experience— either OBJECTIVE (being on the outside or observable from the outside) or SUBJECTIVE (meaning felt on the inside) that stirs up HEIGHTENED, intense feelings of feeling OUT OF CONTROL, TRAPPED, OR ASHAMED.

Different Reactions, Same Event

This definition I use is not according to the bible for therapists, the DSM, so it’s not a mental health diagnosis definition, but the reason I expanded the definition is because two people can go through the same event and have very different takeaways. For example, two people can be in the same car when there’s a car accident, and one person will have a really hard time and that’s going to mark how they move forward for the rest of their lives where they feel really guilty or really afraid, whereas the other person in the car is like, “Oh, I’m so thankful I’m still alive!”

That’s one example. Another is, let’s say for a non-intense event, someone who is called out in the middle of a classroom by their teacher in fifth grade and asked to answer a question on the board. Some kids will be like, “Alright, I’ll rise to the challenge and show off what I can do!” Whereas another kid is going to go bright red, fumble over their words and shut down, and that is what might be driving a lot of the things they do as an adult—working really hard so they are never caught in that position again.

I hope that my definition makes it so that a lot people can consider their own experiences and be like, “Oh, yeah that was a hard experience for me, maybe I do need some more support for that, I’m not the only one.”

Symptoms of Trauma

In terms of trauma symptoms, I can use what the DSM uses as indicators. The four main indicators are:

1. Re-experiencing

2. Avoidance

3. Negative cognitions and feelings

4. Heightened reactivity

Re-experiencing

With re-experiencing, a person in the present is going through a brand new situation with new people, new details, etc., but the situation reminds them or reminds their body of this scary thing that happened in the past. So, this can come in the form of intrusive thoughts, memories, sometimes people may re-experience similar situations in their dreams when they’re sleeping, or they’re in the middle of their workday, and they have a very sudden shift in their thoughts and emotions.

Avoidance

Because it’s so uncomfortable to feel those feelings, people try really hard to avoid anything that remotely reminds them or their body of that situation. So for example, a person experiences a really harsh breakup, and they try really hard to never even drive down the street that they drove down with their previous partner. They are spending a lot of energy and effort trying to not engage with that scary experience or anything that reminds them of it.

Negative Cognitions and Feelings

Understandably, if a person spends a lot of their energy trying to avoid these difficult experiences (even perceived ones), then it’s going to shape how they feel about themselves, how they feel about others, the world, etc. Things like “I’m always going to be in these kinds of relationships,” or “I just can’t trust other people because other people are untrustworthy,” or “the state of the world is not great and it’s always going to be this gloom and doom out there.” Most people who’ve had at least one big trauma or multiple small traumas can live in a way where their perception is colored by their experiences, not reflective of what’s actually happening in front of them.

Heightened Reactivity

With heightened reactivity, the person is generally very irritable, they can be jumpy at different sounds, their moods can change very rapidly. On a nervous system level, their bodies are in this heightened sense of something is going to happen and they have to be extra cautious, which is exhausting to live like that. Even when things are actually okay on the outside, when a person’s body is always tense, even small things may be enough to tip the scale.

Finding Relief for Trauma

It’s helpful for people to know that their well-intended efforts to avoid negative feelings or experiences usually backfire. It’s like trying to stick a beachball underwater. The further down the ball gets stuffed down, the more pressure buildup there is. Eventually, you lose control of it, and it will just pop back up, make a huge splash, everything gets wet and messy.

So, with trauma’s heightened sense of feeling out of control, trapped, or ashamed, our bodies are designed to heal themselves, and triggers are actually attempts for the body to try to heal itself. It’s just that the way by which it’s trying to do so doesn’t always happen at the most convenient moments or in the most helpful ways.

Let’s say a person gets triggered by a word that a friend says. The friend didn’t do anything to cause the pain, but the body is like, “Uh, oh, we’re going to that place again.” When the person gets triggered, if we label that as a bad thing, then yeah, the person should avoid the situation at all costs, but if we re-interpret that as the body’s attempt to try to heal, we get the memo, take it and say, “okay, something inside of me is trying to get my attention. I need to attend to this as soon as possible. It might not be while I’m in the middle of a conversation with my friend or doing work, but I still need to give space to this. Otherwise, it’s going to be that beach ball underwater.”

So part of the way to help oneself heal from trauma is to give more space to the uncomfortable experience, not less. It’s kind of like being on a roller coaster. It’s really intense, there are lots of loops and lots of dizziness, and it seems like it’s going to last a long time, but really it’s two minutes long. The issue is that when people’s bodies get triggered, it’s like being a roller coaster, but the roller coaster gets stuck at the top of the ride. It doesn’t actually make it through to the other side. Because that experience is so intense, people try to get really hard to get off the rollercoaster in the middle of the ride, and it’s just not going to go down well.

Things like brainspotting as a type of therapy is one way for people to get to the other side of resolving the difficult intensity of experience, but there could be many other ways of doing so as well, like performance arts, bodywork like yoga, any kind of journaling exercise where the person is giving intentional space to it. It’s important to manage how much intensity they’re giving to it at a given time, but it’s still important to give more space to it than less. It’s a little bit counterintuitive than what people may expect.

Re-Training our Bodies

The thing is that with trauma, the worst thing has already happened. It’s in the past, it’s one and done. Now, if a person is still in a triggering or traumatic situation, yeah, get out of it as soon as possible. But for most people who’ve had trauma, the trauma is a past event. The worst part has already happened; it’s just that the triggers that our bodies engage in say, “we’re not sure whether that bad thing has actually come to an end.” And so, what’s more likely is that what’s happening right now, the current relationship you’re in, the current work relationship you’ve gotten yourself into, is more likely to be technically better than what’s happened back then, but your body just doesn’t know how to tell the difference.

It’s really hard to make sound decisions when we’re in a lot of confusion. Connecting with a therapist is one way we can have other frames of reference to retrain our bodies to know that what’s happening in front of us should be considered a brand new event, not as an exact replica of what’s happened back then.

I work with a lot of people who are in romantic relationships and their partner has a way about them that ignores emotions. Yeah, the partner has to do their own work for sure. But the way the body interprets what’s happening is as if it’s the same as when they’re getting criticized growing up. Back then, when they were really vulnerable, they really didn’t have any way of soothing themselves. And that’s hard to expect the partner to be able to do the heavy lifting on behalf of those old relationships and previous people.

Body, Mind, and Emotions in Scripture

There’s such intricacy in how our bodies are meant to work together. It’s not just about thinking soundly, addressing emotions, or doing the right thing, all of these are very much interconnected. That’s even reflected in several parts of scripture.

One of my favorite parts is in Romans 12. People have memorized parts 1 and 2. First, it says something like, “Therefore, brothers in view of God’s mercy, offer your bodies as holy sacrifices.” And then verse 2 is like, “make sure to renew your minds so that you don’t align with the way the world operates.” The first 2 verses are talking about the body and the mind, and the emotions kind of come in at the end in verses 5 and 6. But even then, it’d be doing a great disservice to us, and in a way, a dishonor to God, to consider that only one part of us is important by ignoring the rest.

So it’s kind of like splitting hair sometimes to think about our thoughts, our emotions, and our body experiences as being distinct. They definitely have different roles, but there’s so much interconnection and so much order to them that I think it does highlight the majestic work that God does. It’s not just about memorizing and reciting the proper verses. It’s not about giving full control and full reigns to our emotions, but that we’re supposed to heal in a very intricate way.

An example of that is Jesus with the Bleeding Woman. There’s a lot of layers of healing in that one particular experience. Jesus could’ve just fixed the physical ailment of it; she probably would’ve been happy with that portion of healing. But there’s this whole interaction with making sure she hangs out a little bit longer in a huge crowd of people—that’s healing for the soul portion.

She has been pushed to the side on the outskirts of society and is now given center stage for everyone to see that she is a beloved daughter. That is retraining the mind on how she sees herself and retraining everyone else’s mind on how they should consider her. It’s also a very heightened, emotional, intense experience.

One of the things I mentioned as a marker for when an event is traumatic is heightened, emotional, intense experiences of feeling ashamed. Well, Jesus put this woman front and center saying, you are beloved, you are worthy. It’s not because your bleeding problem has been resolved, but it’s because she is who she is. If you read through parts of the Bible through that lens that our thoughts, emotions, bodies are CONNECTED, then you won’t just see physical feelings for people. When Jesus interacts with different people, you’ll see that there are so many other aspects of pain that Jesus also healed.

Healing Inside and Outside

God wants our healing more than we want our own healing. It’s not just like, God changing our citizenship status to being citizens of heaven. That’s easy. But it’s us about catching up with what our status really means. Not just technically having access to His kingdom and some perks that go with it, but really being inhabitant.

I think the language around adoption is another example of that. I’ve heard a story of adoptees who technically became sons and daughters of a family. But it took a long time before they were able to live knowing that they’re sons and daughters. It’s an entirely different experience altogether. I don’t think it’s just about having a technical change in one’s status or getting enough trauma therapy that you no longer have a mental health diagnosis of PTSD. There are so many needs that are really important beyond just symptom management. God really wants people to receive His powerful healing from the inside out in all areas of our lives.

Healing with the Enneagram and Brainspotting

One of my favorite techniques is the enneagram. As I mentioned earlier, two people can go through the same event and have very different takeaways because their personalities are very different. They’re focusing on different themes, different needs, different fears. So unless we attune to each person for who they actually are, it’s going to be hard for them to find the deep healing that they need.

They both have anxiety, but for different reasons. One person is because they’re comparing themselves to an unbelievably high standard and they will never find themselves able to hit the mark, whereas another has anxiety because they’re super self-conscious of how other people see them. Unless we really know what is going on internally with a person’s personality—which is the way that the person has coped through life—it’s going to take a while. Otherwise, it’s kind of like throwing a bunch of things at them and hoping something sticks.

The metaphor that I use with the enneagram is that you go to the massage therapist and they ask a bunch of questions like, “what would you like attention around today? Are there any areas you want to avoid? Let’s look for some knots that are built into your body and let’s massage them now so you can full access to your whole body all over.” Otherwise, those knots are just pulling away at different areas for extended periods of time.

Brainspotting, which is a form of trauma therapy, is the actual massaging out those knots. It’s a type of trauma therapy that our bodies naturally know how to do. Imagine having a hard experience, and then you go to sleep, and then in the deep, dreaming process, your brain is coming up with all kinds of weird details and scenarios that don’t really make sense, but then that’s kind of how your body metabolizes and works through a lot of those difficult emotions and situations. Brainspotting is when a person does that while they’re awake in therapy.

Instead of falling into the deep end, the therapist is able to pull them out of the deep water when the session is about to end because time’s run out or when things get really intense. So, those are the main two resources that I use when supporting people with different kinds of traumas—brainspotting and the enneagram. A lot of the work that I do is around relationships and difficult emotions. I also do a lot of teaching too about what each emotion means about the person needs. They aren’t as chaotic and random as people think they are. There is a logic to it; it' just doesn’t follow the same rules as intellectual logic.

Borrowing Hope on the Road to Healing

As I mentioned earlier, the worst part has already happened, so even when we experience reminders of that, they are short. They can be overcome, but a lot of it involves courage and encouragement. We were never meant to heal from our experiences alone. So, really connecting with a lot of safe people where you can take off all your masks, and you can show up as yourself, and you know you’re not going to be judged. It’s a really important, essential factor that people need to do the healing work.

Aside from a therapist, friends, or sometimes a family member, our partners might be a huge agent of healing for us. It’s definitely is possible to work through these super scary experiences, and it’s so worth doing the work, and until then, it might be hard to imagine it. So until that time, your safe people—including your therapist or pastor or whoever—you may borrow the hope they have on your behalf. It’s okay if you feel scared or unsure.

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Therapist in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Nervous System Health: Stuck On & Stuck Off

Not 1 but 3 Brains

This might be new information, but we don’t have ONE brain, we actually have THREE BRAINS.

1. We have the thinking, executive brain that plans things makes executive decisions and implements them, and can think in the past or far ahead.

2. We have our feeling and emotional brain, which is very relational. It tunes into other people’s facial expresses and cues and responds accordingly. It’s also the part that holds our emotions and big events in our lives, both harsh and great.

3. Finally, we have the bottom part of the brain that’s reflexive, called “lizard brain” that regulates all regulated aspects of our being—the things we have no control over, like pupil dilation, heart rate, blood flow, etc.

Give all the things going on in the world, the country, in our local areas, within our relationships, I wouldn’t be surprised if our bodies are being bombarded with all kinds of stress that it doesn’t know how to decompress from. Our habits of thinking, feeling, and doing are on hyperdrive as our bodies are trying to cope and survive.

Healthy Nervous System

Smooth Flow

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

This is a visual of what happens within our nervous systems. We have what’s called a “Sympathetic Nervous System” (SNS) at the peak, which is the activity and energizing focus dedicated part of our nervous systems where we are alert in the day, we’re trying to get things done, and we’re active. We’re increasing in activity and arousal (stress).

Then we have another part of our nervous system called the Parasympathetic Nervous System (PNS), which is when our bodies are the opposite—more relaxed, grounded, slow, and deliberate. Imagine having a big Thanksgiving meal and feeling super groggy afterward because you’re in a food coma. That’s the parasympathetic kicking in.

Throughout a normal day, our nervous systems are supposed to be in this particular window (normal range) where there’s a smooth and easy flow between the Sympathetic Nervous System as we wake up in the morning, stay alert in the day, and then after 1 or 2 o’clock hits and you feel the crash coming where you need an extra cup of coffee. Then another burst of energy that slowly tapers off as we finish the work day, to return home, veg for a bit, then do something stimulating (watching TV, hanging out with friends) until it’s time to hit the sack.

On > Off > On > Off - a rhythm that repeats throughout the day in a smooth curve. That’s what’s supposed to help us stay present and connected, not in our reactive autopilots.

(Our Enneagram types reveal what our reactive patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing are.)

View fullsize

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

Nervous System Overload

Spikes between “Stuck On” and “Stuck Off”

We’re generally supposed to stay in the normal range. However, when we experience a very harsh situation, either a single, acute event or a chronic series of lower-grade events, it overloads our nervous system and we don’t know how to decompress or heal from that. That’s when we jump into the Un-Discharged Traumatic Stress System.

We can compare the sympathetic to parasympathetic flow of the normal range to how the event (or series of events) overload the system. There’s TOO MUCH STRESS going on and it’s not discharged, which means it’s stuck in our bodies and doesn’t know where to go.

View fullsize

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

Some of us may switch into what’s called “STUCK ON” where our nervous systems are on hyperdrive. The sympathetic nervous system—which is the alert and activity part—kicks in really hard, where the person is spinning in anxiety, they’re trying to be really active and get onto tasks. These tend to be the folks who push themselves really hard, have a hard time settling, spin into being hypervigilant, are very irritable, have digestive issues, etc.

Then there are some of us who go down into the “STUCK OFF” position in our nervous system. The systems shut down. People get really slow and sluggish, they have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning, they have a hard time focusing because it requires so much energy which they don’t feel like they have, there’s very low activity in the body, low blood pressure, etc.

Some of us might go to the “stuck on” where we go into hyperdrive too long, sometimes people stay in “stuck off” position too long where it’s hard to get ourselves to do anything, whereas some people oscillate between “stuck on” and “stuck off” while completely skipping over the normal range window.

Stuck ON/OFF and Reactive Autopilot

When our bodies are so overloaded, we can’t help but kick into our reactive modes. Our bodies are trying to cope, trying to survive, trying to get by, and early on in life, those habits were super useful. But when we’re adults, those patterns don’t work in the ways that they were intended anymore. Sometimes they generate problems, like being hyperfocused and hyperalert has been useful for some time, but sometimes a person might be really irritable in that place and then they get into a fight with their partner, and now there’s yet another thing they have to deal with. When you are within the normal range, you should recognize a sense of choices and options rather than default reactions.

View fullsize

Credit: Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Dan Siegel

The goal is to find ways to come back within the normal range. When someone is “stuck on,” the goal is to try to find ways to down-regulate. If you have a hard time relaxing, it’s about finding ways to simplify things, do things deliberately more slowly, find ways to switch breathing zones (deep, belly breathing instead of the top chest, rapid breathing).

Find out ways you can take care of yourself, especially through this very stressful time with the pandemic. Not only are we experiencing very acute stressors that are very intense and out of nowhere, but we are also experiencing low-grade chronic, drawn-out stressors as well.

If you find yourself resonating with these experiences, you’re NOT ALONE and you’re NOT BROKEN. There’s nothing wrong with you, but it does mean that you’re HUMAN and your limits are actually good. It’s telling you now’s the time to limit all that you’re carrying and focus back on YOURSELF. To help you focus on the self and discover strategies to return to the normal range, check out my blogging series on self-care.

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The BIG Feelings First Aid Kit

Messy feelings spilling out at the WRONG TIME, WRONG PLACE, WRONG WAY?

Grab this free PDF guide that shows you how to handle feelings like a pro so that you can keep moving forward in life!

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Frequently Asked Questions about Therapy

How do I know whether I’m making progress in therapy?

It’s easier for people to know that they’re going in a general good direction when they set a general destination or a goal. An actual question that I have clients answer in their intake forms is: “If this space were to be helpful for you (“space: meaning “therapy”), what would you see in your life being different? What would be some signs and indicators that things have actually changed for the better?”

• E.g., someone comes in, they want to work on relationship issues, they might say, “I would like to directly ask for what I need without crying.”

• That’s the set goal, and tracing back from that goal with reverse engineering, we’d be able to see some steps in between. Those are called the metrics.

• An example of an indicator of this person going in a healthy direction is:

  • First, do you know what needs do you have?

  • Do you know what needs you tend to have?

  • Do you recognize there probably was some time in the past were you able to successfully do that? What was it about that situation? What was it about that person you were talking to? What about that need made it possible to do that? And so on.

So again, if you set your goal and destination clearly, it’s easy to set the metrics in between. You can write it out before you even begin therapy and hold onto that while you go through the therapy process to have a sense of “Alright, I’m still may be far away from where I’d like to be, but things are moving in a helpful direction.”

On the other hand, if you find that the conversations with your therapist are getting pretty repetitive or you’re running out of things to talk about, that might be an indicator that the therapy space is not working. You need to have conversations with your therapist to make adjustments so that it’s more aligned with what you need and that hopefully, things get better for you.

OR it’s an indicator that things are actually working because you might’ve gotten to where you wanted to be sooner than you might’ve expected. If you’re running out of things to talk about and things are repetitive, and it’s indicative that things are actually working, perhaps it’s a good idea to talk with your therapist to transition out of therapy by graduating through what’s called “termination,” or to space out your sessions, which is called “maintenance mode.”

How do I know whether a therapist is not a good fit?

It’s really important for there to be a good fit between you and the therapist. If you’ve defined your goals, then it’s easier to tell whether or not the therapist is a good fit. If you’re going in a different direction than what you signed up for, it’s good to have a conversation with your therapist about it. Sometimes what they offer and what you need may not be aligned, and that’s okay. Therapists are trained to be professional listeners, but we don’t have the ability to read minds, so it’s very helpful if we can have those explicit conversations. Sometimes adjustments are possible; it’s better to bring it up sooner rather than later down the line.

Another sign that things are or aren’t a good fit with a therapist is based on gut reaction. I send out quarterly surveys to ask clients how they feel in sessions, and for clients who have been great fits, the number one emotion they report feeling in that first session is RELIEF. They felt seen, heard, known, less confused, had a deeper understanding—those are all pretty good signs a therapist is a good fit.

The opposite of those emotions will be feeling confused, overwhelmed, or nervous. It’s OKAY to be nervous about starting a new thing, but if that nervousness doesn’t dissipate over the first couple of sessions, you might want to check out someone else that your body feels more at ease with. When you’re tense, therapists are not likely to get to the heart of the matter as easily, which means you might be taking more sessions than you need to. You should find someone with whom your body can feel at ease. If you check in with your body, and you feel more relaxed, you’ll be able to go at a much greater depth than with someone with whom you are guarded and reserved.

Therapy is about YOUR Needs, not the Therapist’s

One last point is that therapy is about YOU and YOUR NEEDS. It’s not about the therapist; it’s not about what the therapist needs or feels. Don’t spend your precious resources like your time, energy, and money trying to navigate how the therapist might feel if potentially you don’t feel like it’s a good fit, or you want to transition out. This space is meant for YOU. You don’t owe an explanation. If you feel more comfortable having a closure conversation with your therapist, power to you! That could be a good part of your own process. But let’s say you feel unsafe with a therapist, feel free to not have that closure conversation. You don’t owe them an explanation. Maybe you’ll just email them or send a message that going forward you’ll no longer be working with them—that’s okay.

If you’re currently looking for a therapist, check out my post about how to find a therapist in San Jose and how to prepare for a consult call to gauge whether or not a potential therapist will be a good fit for you.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

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What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

What is Compatibility?

Am I Compatible with the Person I’m Dating?

I live in the Silicon Valley, there are tons of young professionals in the area, and one big topic that’s on a lot of people’s minds is around relationships. “Whom am I going to date? Whom am I going to spend the rest of my life with? Whom am I going to buy a house with?”

Either through online dating apps OKCupid or Coffee Meets Bagel, or asking around from friends and family members, “Can you set me up with somebody?” A lot of people are thinking, “Is this person that I’m considering a fit? A COMPATIBLE fit?” The topic of compatibility is a big thing that comes up.

What Does “Compatible” Mean?

Generally, the way that the word “compatibility” is understood is that “this person and I are going to jive well together.” But I did some digging in dictionary.com the other day to find out what the word ACTUALLY means. I learned that in the Latin form, it doesn’t mean that this person and I are the right fit, but it means that we learn how to STRUGGLE together.

• The root “com” means together

• “Bility” means ability

• “Pati” in the middle literally means “pain.”

Why is Compatibility Important?

Contrary to what a lot of people assume to mean about compatibility, if you want to find someone who is a good, compatible match, you want to make sure that YOU are someone who is doing your own personal work, and that you’re willing to find someone who is also doing the same for themself.

The reason why this is the case is because most likely, one or both of you are going to change at some point. Just because they are a good fit now, doesn’t mean you’re going to be a fit for the long haul. So, if both of you don’t know how to make adjustments as you change or grow, the relationship is going to experience more strain down the line.

So again, I want you to find someone who is compatible, but also someone who is willing to do the work. If you want to know how you can do your own portion of it, I have a bunch of blogs around relationships and personal development to help you get started on your own journey.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Who is the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)?

Who are Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)?

I don’t know about you, but I have been told many, many times that I am just too damn sensitive because my mood changes very often, or I notice the slightest changes in lighting or notice lint on the ground, and I can’t “just get over it.” So I’m here to talk about the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) trait, and I’ll describe the four main distinctive features of the HSP.

HSPs comprise 20% of the population. That’s a BIG amount of people. It’s not a diagnosis, and it’s not a problem. But a lot of the challenges that HSPs like myself face is that technically, we’re in the minority. We’re the minority in a country and a context that’s not very kind to minorities, so often HSPs feel very misunderstood. They feel judged and shamed because they don’t fit the mold for what the rest of the population tends to experience just fine.

D.O.E.S.: The 4 Traits of HSPs

The acronym D-O-E-S, these four letters correspond with the traits that distinguish HSPs from non-HSPs. So they are:

• D is for DEPTH of processing.

• O is for OVERSTIMULATION

• E is for EMOTIONAL REACTIVITY and EMPATHY

• S is for SENSITIVITY to subtle stimuli

D: DEPTH of Processing

HSPs tend to take in a lot more quality and quantity of information from the world around them. Imagine a person being a blu-ray imaging in a DVD world. Compared to the vast majority of the population, HSPs take in far more stimuli like what’s happening, sensory information, emotional information.

Not only do they take in a lot more quality and quantity of data, but they also run that through a very fine sieve internally. They are very deliberate, very thoughtful, very reflective and it takes a while. Usually, you can’t just throw information at them; HSPs usually need some time away to process and digest everything. They’re not as speedy as some of the rest of y’all might want HSPs to be.

O: OVERSTIMULATION

Due to Depth of Processing, HSPs often get OVERSTIMULATED. Because of all the stimuli that’s taken in from the outside and all the churning that’s happening on the inside, HSPs get overwhelmed very easily. As a result, the nervous system tends to shut down more, causing HPSs to overwhelm easily. Their minds get very fogged, their eyes glaze over, they are very frazzled and irritable. This happens not necessarily because they are angry, but they are trying to take in and digest all the stuff their bodies have absorbed from around them.

To deal with this, HSPs may need to have some dedicated time in very low-stimuli environments—silence, solitude, and stillness. They need to get away from all the noise and all the people. For myself, after a long day, I need to take a good 10-15 minutes with the lights off, in my room, by myself, under a weighted blanket. It helps my body come back online. So if HSPs withdraw, it might not necessarily be because they don’t want to talk to you, it might be because they are overwhelmed.

E: EMOTIONAL REACTIVITY + EMPATHY

I mentioned HSPs take in a lot of outside information. Part of that information is around EMOTIONS. Because they notice subtleties in facial expressions, tone of voice, or body language, they’re able to pick up on the emotional cues of other people. This is not something they do on purpose. It’s very reflexive; it happens without them knowing it. But because they are attuned to the emotional feelings of other people, they might feel feelings about other people’s emotions, not just because they might sense some of the pain they are experiencing, but because if they see an angry or grumpy expression in someone else, their own nervous system starts responding accordingly.

Not only that, HSPs tend to be very reflective internally, so they can even notice the nuances in their own emotional experiences. Sometimes HSPs can have feelings about their own feelings, so they may find themselves in an emotional feedback loop. They start looking internally, and the more they focus on the different nuances of emotions, they build up like a snowball. All this focus on the details starts amplifying themselves, which is why HSPs are often seen as being very sensitive or very emotional.

S: SENSITIVITY to Subtle Stimuli

If you think about the 5 senses — sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing — HSPs pick up on those really readily. This is a great thing in some instances, like they are very good with the arts or aesthetics because they have a dedicated focus on making sure things are in good harmony or aligned well. This can also backfire, like noticing the scratchy tags on the back of the shirt or being really bothered that a particular picture frame is out of alignment, etc. The sensitivity can be a double-edged sword.

Resources for the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)

Remember the 4 traits that distinguish HSPs from non-HSPs, D-O-E-S (Depth of processing, overstimulation, emotional reactivity and empathy, and sensitivity to subtle stimuli). If all these 4 things (to varying degrees) resonate with you, there’s a good chance you might be a Highly Sensitive Person. Again, this is not a diagnosis. And HSPs are also different from each other, so you’ll resonate with these things on a spectrum.

The reason it’s important for people to know whether or not they are HSPs is because the things that the rest of the world needs for themselves as non-HSPs don’t always apply to HSPs. Being an HSP in a non-HSP-dominant environment presents some very difficult circumstances. I live in the Silicon Valley in the United States, and there is a high emphasis on being the best or having things be bigger, better, louder, faster. Those are values that don’t often align with the HSP trait. So, if that same person were to live in Japan or another country that is very HSP-friendly, those people will be celebrated, whereas, in this environment, they might have a really hard time.

Find out what your specific needs are because they MATTER. It’s just because they are often misunderstood, it may take a little bit longer for you. If you’re interested in HSPs, you can check out my resource page for HSPs or pick up a copy of the book The Highly Sensitive Person by Dr. Elaine Aron, which is a fantastic resource. She also wrote some books that specifically serve HSP children and being in love as an HSP or with an HSP.

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The BIG Feelings First Aid Kit

Messy feelings spilling out at the WRONG TIME, WRONG PLACE, WRONG WAY?

Grab this free PDF guide that shows you how to handle feelings like a pro so that you can keep moving forward in life!

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© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”