How the Enneagram Adds Dimensions to the Genogram (ft. the Bridgertons)

Your Family Tree Tapestry has Texture

Have you’ve ever looked at your family members and thought,

“How the hell are we even related?!”

If so, you’re not alone, and there’s a whole picture that show us how the pieces fit together.

Introducing the Genogram.

A genogram is like your family tree’s emotionally intelligent cousin that give us a whole lot more information than just the names of each member.

It gives us the structure, the who’s-who, the space between individuals, and the major plot points of our family stories across generations.

Here’s an example from the show FRIENDS, centered around Ross Geller (read the blog):

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At a glance, you can literally see generational patterns, roles, expectations, ripple effects of traumas, and emotional legacies.

The genogram also maps out not just people, but also patterns — conflict, closeness, trauma, cutoffs, alliances, enmeshments, and triangulations — the nature of the relationship between members of the family.

Because we’re also seeing the bird’s eye view at a glance, LACK of information is also information — for example, if there’s a ton about your mom’s side about the family but nothing about your dad’s side, this is not nothing.

Why the lack of details? Is it emotional cutoff or estrangement? Is it that your dad doesn’t have a connection with his family or that you don’t have a relationship with him?

What’s NOT present is just as informational as what is.

The Genogram reveals a ton already. But when you also throw in the Enneagram?

That’s when things get real juicy. It’s switching from black-and-white to full color, or from outline sketch to textured tapestry — so many more dimensions are evident at a glance, just by adding a few more letters.

Birth order and gender (a la genogram) matter, but they don’t guarantee certain experiences.

Each person’s own personality (a la Enneagram) play a HUGE role in how each actually interpret and react to various experiences.

This is especially evident for identical twins. (Think of Phoebe & Ursula from FRIENDS: everything is the same except for personality — and see how drastically contrasted their relationship patterns & life trajectories are!)

Personality is in the Enneagram’s wheelhouse, zhuzhing up the genogram without taking up much space on the page.

(Here are blogs about the 9 Enneagram types, 3 instincts, & 27 subtypes.)

Enter the Bridgertons: Family Roles, Public Reputations, & Internalized Responsibilities

In this blog, we’re diving into how the Enneagram reveals the emotional fabric of family dynamics — and what better example than the drama-laden, emotionally dynamic world of the Bridgertons, where we meet the picture-perfect family of 8 children, 1 widowed mama, 1 GINORMOUS estate, and WAY more expectations than anyone knows what to do with.

SPOILER ALERT: This blog covers content up to the beginning of Season 3 in the Netflix adaptation. You have been warned!

We’ll be zooming in on three characters in particular,

• Daphne (Enneagram 2, SX/SO)

• Anthony (Enneagram 1, SX/SO)

• Violet (Enneagram 2, SO/SX)

…exploring how each of them:

• Engage life in alignment with their Enneagram type

• Occupy specific roles in the family (context matters!!)

• Could benefit from some serious therapy to heal their relationships, especially with themselves.

Here’s the the Bridgerton Family Tree:

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In the eyes of the Ton, the Bridgertons are a loving family that screams unity, perfection, & class.

But behind the scenes?

Anxiety. Pressure. Comparison. Loneliness. Burnout. Grief. Resentment.

…and roles so entrenched that they’re practically titles in and of themselves:

• The Matriarch/Puppet Master (Violet)

• The Third Parent (Anthony)

• The Failure-to-Launch Backup (Benedict)

• The Carefree Kid (Colin)

• The Golden Child (Daphne)

• The Rebel/Black Sheep (Eloise)

• The Recluse (Francesca)

• The Twins/Babies (Gregory & Hyacinth)

Here’s what the Bridgerton’s genogram looks like, and how much more info it has than their family tree, especially in the space between members:

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No One’s Patterns Exist in a Vacuum

…but within a very specific social context. These roles (influenced by birth order, personality, gender roles/expectations, medical needs, trauma, etc.) reinforce each other — namely, they come as a set, fulfilling very specific emotional roles for the collective/family.

Hence, anytime there’s an addition or removal of one member (e.g., through birth, death, marriage, moves, or physical/mental health issues), the equilibrium is shaken up so that the roles may be redistributed according to who’s left. (If the Peacemaker in the family marries off and moves away, who’s going to fill that gap next?)

Each Bridgerton already had a personality leaning for certain family roles, but these roles became deeply established & entrenched especially after one major traumatic family event: the sudden death of Edmund Bridgerton, beloved husband, father, and 8th Viscount.

The Original Crisis that Solidified Family Roles

An idyllic father-son bonding time ended in a very traumatic, tragic, and disorienting shakeup for the whole family for years to come.

Watch the moment that knocked down the first domino:

Everyone in the Bridgerton family felt the gaping hole Edmund left behind.

But the tragic event’s impact is most evident in three key members who form the major family triangle:

• Daphne (Enneagram 2, SX/SO)

• Anthony (Enneagram 1, SX/SO)

• Violet (Enneagram 2, SO/SX)

Here’s the simplified genogram that reveals this triangle (green):

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Let’s set the scene & characters, shall we?

Daphne vs. Anthony:
Same Stimulus, Different Response

Birth order & gender experiences matter, but Enneagram personality (which we’re born with) matters even more in influencing how each interprets & responds to the same event.

Even if Anthony had been the second or third child, he would have still somehow become a pillar in the family because of his Enneagram type.

The direction a domino is set (NATURE) influences which way it’ll fall upon impact (NURTURE): same objective event, different subjective reactions.

Let’s first zoom in on the eldest daugther & son to see how this plays out, starting with Daphne (bc let’s be forreal — Daphne is likely to reach out to therapy long before Anthony does).

The Flawless Golden Child: Daphne
(Enneagram 2, Sexual/Social)

Poised, pretty, & practically perfect. “The Diamond of the Season” whom everyone sets as the golden standard — especially the next-in-line daughter Eloise, who considers herself a disappointment in Daphne’s shadow.

But unlike with Eloise (what we see is what we get), there’s much more happening behind the scenes with Daphne.

Behind Daphne’s halo? We find a spicy, masterful relationship engineer who skillfully shapeshifts into becoming the ultimate object of desire & envy (different spices to make herself appealing to different palates).

All Enneagram 2s (the Befriender) focus so much of their attention towards others (and away from their own inner world), intuitively sensing what makes people tick or turned on & deftly molding their relationships to their liking.

Compared to many other Enneagram types, Type Twos tend to be more romantic and idealistic, in pursuit of a love match (much like the one that Daphne’s parents enjoyed) as if that’s the #1 most important thing in life.

More specifically, Daphne is an Enneagram 2 SX/SO, meaning she has:

• a dominant Sexual (SX) instinct

• a secondary Social (SO) instinct

• a repressed Self-Preservation (SP) instinct

(Here’s more about the Enneagram instincts & subtypes.)

Here’s how this subtype shows up, compared to her mother Violet (also Enneagram 2, but different instinct sequence. More on Violet later!).

Dominant Sexual (SX) Instinct

As is the case for all Twos, Daphne's core need is to be loved, chosen, and indispensable. With her strong Sexual (SX) instinct in first place, her focus hones in on one meaningful, intimate, INTENSE connection (Hello, Simon!).

2 SXs are known to be the Queen (vs. 2 SO — the Empress, 2 SP — the Princess) who use their physical beauty, body language, and emotional dynamism to find and attract (*cough — seduce) their partner of choice.

Here’s an example of Daphne utilizing her wiles and to get the freakin’ Prince to KNEEL (Also to passive aggressively get back at Simon):

Among all the Bridgerton children, Anthony & Daphne share a particularly close bond, partly because of their positions as the Eldest son & daughter, but also because they both have a dominant Sexual instinct, which is focused on intense, 1:1 attachment with special individuals — partners, best friends, parents, kids, etc. (The SX isn’t always about sex. “Special” is the key word.)

A & D just GET each other, no words necessary. This is also why both of them form 2 corners of the triangle, their mother Violet being the third.

(Triangles (or triangulation) are the go-to relationship dynamic for those who have a loud SX instinct. More to come on this later.)

Second Social (SO) Instinct

In addition to being very vivacious & energetically dynamic, Daphne’s Social instinct prompts her to uphold a specific image, not just in the eyes of that one special person, but also in the collective: the Diamond of the Season for the Ton and the Perfect Daughter/Golden Child for her family.

Similar to the eldest son Anthony (Enneagram 1 SX/SO), Daphne is very aware of her position in the family as the eldest daughter and crown jewel of the Bridgerton household, seeking a suitable marriage match in order to:

• Alleviate the pressure on her dear brother Anthony’s shoulders

• Please her Mama

• Set a good example for her younger siblings

• Secure her family’s position in society

(Ultimately, the winning factor for her marriage is the SX value of love & romance, not particularly the SO value of duty & responsibility — that Simon is a Duke is a happy bonus, but not really the point.)

Like her mother Violet (2 SO/SX), Daphne is also a master image manager and relationship architect (i.e., meddling), but the latter isn’t as prevalent and extensive as it is for her Social-dominant mother.

Repressed Self-Preservation (SP) Instinct

Unlike Edwina Sharma (Enneagram 2 SP/SX), who takes on a very cutesy, childlike posture and is overly generous with flattery (Princess vs. Queen), Daphne is more spicy and ready to bite back at those (special) individuals who look down on her or consider her fragile (i.e., Anthony & Simon).

Her fiery Type 2 Pride + the lack of Self-Preservation guardrails leads Daphne to even LITERALLY jump into a duel (yes, with guns!!) meant to preserve her honor (because dumbass Anthony & Simon thinks she’s a helpless damsel in distress and that they’re each the valiant hero 🙄🤬).

Enneagram 2 Identity Crisis: Who Am I Now?

At the end of Season 1, Daphne becomes the family’s “success story,” the one who captures the Queen & the Ton’s attention, gets married first (to a freakin’ DUKE!), makes her Mama proud, and follows the rules…(mostly).

Even though she successfully snagged herself a titled husband by marrying Simon (4 SX/SP) in a very dramatic & emotionally turbulent way (typical for Enneagram 2 & 4 relationships), in Season 2, Daphne is confronted with a brand new problem never faced before:

• Now that she accomplished her family role, who is she now?

• Who is she when she’s no longer needed or in the spotlight in society?

• Now that she “won/conquered” Simon already and he’s focused on his business, who is she in his eyes?

Daphne built her whole identity around being desired. Wanted. Cherished. All for the sake of attaining love.

Turns out, being a wife or mother or a shiny success story doesn’t actually guarantee the feeling of love or intimacy. Though she always had this hole inside her, it’s more obvious now that she’s accomplished her Enneagram type-informed life mission.

After getting married & having a child (the first grandchild), Daphne switched gears away from the SX/1:1 focus and towards the SO/collective focus by trying to make herself indispensable in OTHER people’s lives.

Following in her mother 2 SO/SX Violet’s footsteps, Daphne injected herself into her dear brother Anthony’s love life, vetting Edwina for him (even though he never asked either of them for help) and trying to get him to pay attention to his REPRESSED AF feelings for Kate.

Mission accomplished? Yes. Anthony also gets hitched to the love of his life, making his Mama & sister’s hearts purr with delight.

…But NOW WHAT? What happens with Daphne now that Anthony too is wed? What’s her place now? Just go down the list of all the siblings that she’s not that close with? Or go back home and lean into motherhood, pining for Simon to return home from his business ventures?

Who is Daphne REALLY? *Cue existential identity struggle.

At the end of this blog, we’ll go into what Daphne might reach out to a therapist for. (Click here if you wanna fast forward to that section.)

But enough about the eldest daughter. Now’s time to zoom in on Anthony, the oldest son, the next Viscount, and the head of the Bridgerton household.

The Self-Abandoning Parentified Child: Anthony
(Enneagram 1, Sexual/Social)

When Edmund died, his mother completely collapsed under her grief, inadvertently dumping the entire weight of the whole household onto Anthony’s shoulders.

In the span of minutes, Anthony's status changed into the roles of:

• The 9th Viscount

• The head of the household

• Emotional Orphan

• Doubly Parentified Child

(How many 18-year-olds know how to handle taxes, let alone an entire estate, or lead an entire family?)

In Enneagram 1 fashion, Anthony didn’t even push back against this mantle but completely assumed responsibility on behalf of the whole family, obsessing about doing things “properly” while emotionally white-knuckling his way through his own grief and trauma.

His inner dialogue went probably like this:

Who has time for feelings? It doesn’t matter what I want. I have shit to take care of…especially because everyone else is a mess and/or completely unreliable.

(Do you hear the resentment?)

Dutiful, self-denying, workaholic, rigid, grumpy as hell…and terrified of messing it all up.

It wasn’t just because Anthony is the oldest son that he became the pillar of the family — even if he were second or third in the birth order, he would have likely ended up taking on WAY more responsibility than his share, because that’s built into the Enneagram 1 personality makeup: doing the rightful, responsible thing.

Had he been a firstborn son of another type (like Enneagram 4 or 7 — types that tend to avoid responsibility), the entire Bridgerton story would have turned out VERY differently.

(Think of eldest Featherington Prudence, whose father also suddenly died and whose family was in a more financially precarious situation, but her inclination was to do the LEAST amount of work possible and had zero problem letting other people take responsibility. She’s obviously not Type 1.)

Dominant Sexual (SX) Instinct

Like Daphne, Anthony has a dominant instinct that makes him very intense, passionate, and impulsive especially in one-on-one dynamics. This is most obvious in his relationship with mother Violet, favorite sister Daphne, and his (begrudgingly admitted) love interest Kate (Enneagram 8 SO/SX).

Unlike for Type 2s (whose type & SX instinct are in alignment), Type 1 goes the OPPOSITE direction as the SX instinct, making 1 SX into a countertype: the Type One that looks the least like Type Ones, compared to 1 SP & 1 SO.

More so than typical Type 1s, Anthony can exhibit 7ish and 4ish tendencies more readily, for better (his feelings are less repressed) and worse (his impulsive reactive tendencies spill over more).

Anthony is still (mostly) rigidly in control, but his passion and fire erupts more readily — what he thinks is to his detriment, but ultimately might be for his highest and best interest. (Thank goodness he married Kate!)

On the shadow side, the Improver energy of Type 1 gets directed OUTWARDS towards other people more than on himself, leading him to put pressure on others and and also more hypocritical than 1 SP & 1 SO would. (Daphne totally calls him out on this after she catches him & Kate in their almost-kiss.)

Secondary Social (SO) Instinct

Built into both Type One and the Social instinct are the central themes of roles, responsibilities, position, status, and influence.

Whereas Anthony’s dominant SX instinct dampens some One-ness, his secondary SO instinct reinforces it. As such, Anthony had a fairly easy time occupying the responsibility vacuum left behind by both of his parents upon his father’s death.

Social-dominant Ones are the “cool”, level-headed Ones who also become the Perfect Role Model for others to follow suit (think Professor McGonagall from Harry Potter), so Anthony tries hard to be the good older brother, the Viscount, and the head of the household, out of a fear of tarnishing the Bridgerton name and disappointing his late father.

But (as was Daphne’s case) the SX instinct still wins out over the SO instinct in his whirlwind of a love/hate romance with spinster Kate, overriding his duty-based intentions to marry her sister Edwina (the second Diamond of the Season).

Repressed Self-Preservation (SP) Instinct

Anthony’s fiery dominant SX instincts also occasionally hijack his Type One intentions because his guardrail, practical Self-Pres instinct is nowhere to be seen: his illicit hot/cold affair with Siena, being late to Daphne’s debuting first ball of the season (way to go, big brother!), and the reckless duel with Simon (that led to her sister literally getting caught in the middle).

Even though Type Ones are known for the Ready-Aim-Fire stance, Anthony occasionally accidentally FIRES first, and cleans up later. Hence, even though he’s very much a Type 1, his chaotic tendencies of swinging between extremes makes him seem very Enneagram Four-ish. (Great for TV drama!)

Enneagram 1 Emotional & Relationship Crisis:
When is it time for MY Wants & Needs?

Anthony’s resistance to admitting (let alone attending to) his wants & needs leads to him overinvolve himself in his others’ affairs — especially the firstborn daughter Daphne but also the second-in-line Benedict, regularly reminding them of their duties to support the family and set a good example for the younger siblings — while also getting resentful.

This also leads Anthony to clash with his 2 SO/SX mother Violet (who shares the same goal of marrying off the children, but for wildly different reasons — less duty, more romance — and different approaches — a more behind-the-scenes orchestration & emotional nurturing than criticism & orders).

Even though Violet finally reassumed her role in the family as Matriarch and in society as Dowager Viscountess, her emotional collapse & absence left indelible marks on the children, especially her firstborn.

Resentment simmers beneath Anthony’s stern, responsible front, especially towards his mother who both emotionally abandoned & saddled him with the dual parental role — not only is he the Big Brother & “Father”, but he’s also very “maternal” & emotionally involved.

Cold & distant is not a term to describe how Anthony shows up for ALL of his siblings, even the youngest brother Gregory despite the 16-year-age gap.

Watch Anthony’s warmth & tenderness for Gregory (in contrast to Gregory’s relationship with Violet throughout the Seasons — overlooked unless scolded for his playful pranks):

Anthony steps in, because Violet stepped back. (Another triangle!!)

This emotional backdrop of taking care of others’ at the expense of his own is what Kate Sharma steps into.

As a fellow oldest sibling + orphan + family pillar, she is the first/only person who deeply GETS him.

Part of the reason why Anthony’s passions stir out of control when she enters the scene is because her some of her Enneagram 8 SO/SX patterns of wildly defying social roles & expectations, not playing by the rules, defining her own path, and having her own one-up power stance to see him eye-to-eye (as EQUALS) shakes him out of his default overresponsible, Martyr + Savior + Protector stance. (That he doesn’t know what to do with her is good for him, even though he (love) hates it.)

For the first time in his life, someone really SEES Anthony’s grief & pain behind his strong, judgy exterior (think his panic attack triggered by Kate’s bee sting).

Anthony’s frozen trauma begin thawing, creating a messy slurry of feelings that he doesn’t know what the fuck to do with.

That he finally relents to love in marrying Kate isn’t the end of his redemption story. His healing journey continues long after they’re married and have their child.

There are a ton of things that might bring Anthony into therapy — keep reading! (Click here if you wanna jump to that section.)

Enough about the main characters of Seasons 1 & 2 (Whew!).

Now let’s focus on the third leg of the family triangle — Mama Bridgerton.

The Master Relationship Engineer: Violet
(Enneagram 2, Social/Sexual)

Even though Violet is not a main character (yet 🤞 — let’s hope she gets her own spinoff story!), she plays a MAJOR role behind-the-scenes.

Without a focus on her, we can’t fully understand Anthony or Daphne, as she is the one who singlehandedly reinforces both her eldest son & daughters’ Enneagram patterns.

Violet's grief after Edmund's death wasn’t just about loss — it was about an entire identity collapse. Her role as a wife vanished overnight.

After the initial grief shutdown (relationship losses for Enneagram 2s cut differently), she doubled down and threw herself entirely into her children’s lives, especially matchmaking. Why?

Because Social 2s derive worth from being indispensable to a group — in this case, her family and society at large. This is a much louder theme than for Daphne (2 SX/SO), who directs more energy towards 1:1 relationships.

Violet is warm and loving, but she also often blurs boundaries by injecting herself into her kids’ personal lives to feel connected with them (but then feeling hurt, bewildered, or at a loss when they push back — What to do with Eloise or Francesca?).

Her love seems generous (it’s clear she does care for her children), but it’s also a form of control and an expression of her own ego workings — about her centrality in the lives of those she loves.

Sometimes her well-meaning efforts to help leads her to inadvertently overriding her children’s experiences — most evident in the frustrations that Anthony, Daphne, Eloise, and Francesca feel & express to her.

Violet can’t fix her own grief, so she micromanages her children’s lives by engineering relationship opportunities behind the scenes with her partner-in-crime Lady Danbury (Enneagram 8 SO/SP), while still nudging them to seek romantic love above all else. (Mixed messages, much?)

Her overcompensating overinvolvement in her children’s lives puts her in a subtle power struggle with Anthony (vying for the head of household role), dragging the eldest daughter Daphne in as the battlefield and prize.

This puts all three members into a triangle deadlock in Season 1 — Daphne is triangulated into Anthony & Violet’s relationship with each other.

(In Season 2, Anthony becomes the target of Violet & Daphne’s attention, because Daphne simultaneously fulfilled her role in Violet’s eyes and initiated her own identity crisis by getting married.)

The Bridgerton Family Triangle:
Anthony, Daphne, & Violet

Here’s what the relationship between the three looks like in genogram form (the green triangle):

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Triangulation is a unhealthy but very common relationship dynamic when Party A & Party B don’t deal with each other directly and instead loop/drag in a third Party C to be the peacemaker, distraction, and/or prize. Party C serves as the pressure valve build up by A & B.

Usually the triangulated party ends up feeling controlled, burned out, and frustrated (because they’re objectified by the other two). Daphne eventually snapped back at both her mother & brother for meddling in her romantic life, feeling seen for just what she does, not for who she is/what she wants.

Had Edmund still been alive, he would likely have been the third Party between Anthony & Violet (purple triangle), since the relationship between the latter two even before his death was nowhere near as close/solid as each of their relationships with Edmund.

Triangles don’t form only from trauma or conflict — sometimes it’s just relative. The triangulated party is usually the path of least resistance.

If there were conflict between Anthony & Violet, they might have each attempted to get Edmund involved by lamenting to him rather than directly to the other party. If Edmund was emotionally mature, he would extricate himself from the triangle (detriangulate himself) and encourage them to hash things out with each other directly. But I guess we will never know…

Triangulation is a favorite dynamic especially for Enneagram 2s, but also for the Sexual instinct, as it’s the main instinct of rivalry and competition for a common prize (*cough prey).

Of these three characters’ Enneagram type & instinct setup, we have 2 Twos and 3 loud SX instincts:

• Anthony — Type 1 SX/SO

• Daphne — Type 2 SX/SO

• Violet — Type 2 SO/SX

After Daphne gets married to Simon (Enneagram 4SX/SP — that’s a whole ‘nother story of relationship drama…Double SX-dominant types + Type 2/4 combo!) at the end of Season 1, Anthony becomes the new focal point of attention in Season 2. The triangle continues, now with Daphne being the meddling one in Anthony’s love affairs.

When Anthony too finds his love match and he goes off on his honeymoon (taking off his head-of-household + parental + Viscount + older brother hats), this triangle loses steam.

Anthony’s attention is (entirely) elsewhere towards a new party D (Kate) and he (finally) gives himself permission to focus on fulfilling his own wants & needs.

Without this triangle to consume her time & energy, what is Violet Bridgerton to do next? Eloise hasn’t shown the faintest interest in finding a love match…so it must be Benedict (who’s very slippery) or Colin (who seems so confident that he might not need help?)…right?

With Anthony on his honeymoon & Daphne off to her duchy with her husband and child, Violet needs a third corner of the triangle so that she doesn’t have to think about herself & her own needs (*cue Enneagram 2 nausea 🤢).

Fortunately (?), her trusty bestie Lady Danbury (Enneagram 8 SO/SP) also has all the time in the world with no drama to keep herself entertained and no new chess pieces to maneuver.

And so another triangle is formed in Season 3…with Francesca (Enneagram 5 SX/SP), the latest Diamond of the Season….and Violet’s latest project.

The Enneagram: The Cage That Used to Protect Us that Now Keep Us Stuck

At its core, the Enneagram points to nine different themes that serve as speed-dial reactions to life’s challenges.

Each type’s patterns are coping strategies & defense mechanisms that USED to be helpful when we were actually vulnerable and without many resources and opportunities.

But as we grow up & gain more abilities, our autopilot patterns don’t always upgrade accordingly, especially when there’s trauma.

We don’t realize that we’re STUCK in one of nine patterns until our handy go-to tools just don’t work anymore, but actually start CREATING problems.

How Enneagram Patterns USED to Help

With our beloved Bridgerton trio, this is how their Enneagram types & subtypes used to help them feel secure in the wake of Edmund’s death:

• Anthony (Enneagram 1 SX/SO) — Being right, strong, competent, responsible, and in self-control gave him a sense of purpose & orientation in the midst of crisis & chaos from loss. Directing that Improver energy outwards (SX/SO) “protected” him from directing it towards himself (SP), because he might have completely shut down & collapsed alongside his unraveling mother when his family really did need someone to take charge.

• Daphne (Enneagram 2 SX/SO) — Being attractive, beautiful, pleasing, and magnetic gave her a toolbox of soft power, molding her image (and therefore her relationships) so that she can simultaneously fulfill her duty as the eldest daughter, take care of her mother & siblings, and also enjoy a romantic & emotionally fulfilling relationship like her parents did — all to avoid ever feeling unloved or alone.

• Violet (Enneagram 2 SO/SX) — Being emotionally attuned and able to discern & navigate behind-the-scenes social dynamics gave her ways of engineering/fostering relationships so that she’ll always have a place in their lives and have something to fill her broken widow heart. As an only child who yearned for connections while growing up with an emotionally cold & critical mother (Lady Ledger), Violet always dreamed having a large & actively interconnected family, with herself at the center.

How Enneagram Patterns now lead to Hurt

Unfortunately, these very entrenched patterns are the very things that prevent us from getting our true needs met.

• Anthony — Having sworn off his own wants & needs, he became more bitter, resentful, and rigid in controlling others. His inability to relax made him more judgmental of others, creating further chasms in his relationships and actually sabotaging his ability to provide for & protec the family. Because he was so (overly) responsible, his next siblings in line Benedict & Colin were able to spread their wings freely to pursue their interests without worry. They got a chance to indulge in their own desires freely, leaving Anthony feeling further alone and trapped the eldest son role & head of household responsibilities.

• Daphne — Once she accomplished her mission of getting married, Daphne lost her spotlight society as well as her identity as the Golden Child. Having also “locked” Simon into marriage, there wasn’t someone whose attention to attract anymore, meaning her soft power toolbox was becoming less and less relevant each day. Her attempt to make herself indispensable again by involving herself in Anthony’s love drama and creating a new triangle with her husband & child only bought her so much time until she was back to her identity crisis of “Who am I?”.

• Violet — Though she still has a number of children to marry off to buy herself time from also dealing with the Type 2 identity crisis, Violet was deeply shaken up to lose the Viscountess title to Anthony’s wife Kate. What happens now? Where do I even physically live? Will I still be invited to society’s balls without a title or any more children to marry off? What will I do with myself when my children no longer need me?

The Next Generation: Tectonic Shifts in Roles & Relationships

With new marriages (& new babies!), the family equilibrium has been completely shaken up — the Bridgerton family will never be the same again, and it’s time for role reconstruction.

The original triangle between Daphne, Anthony, & Violet has dissolved, and it’s TBD as to how these roles will shift or be redistributed within the now three nuclear families:

• The Bridgertons: Anthony, Kate, baby

• The Bridgertons: Violet, Benedict, Colin, … , Hyacinth

• The Bassetts: Daphne, Simon, Augie

The genograms for Before (Season 1 & 2) & After (start of Season 3):

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Before (Seasons 1 & 2): A triangle between Anthony, Violet, & Daphne, with Daphne as the main focus of Season 1 and Anthony the target of Season 2. The other children are more in the backdrop.

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After (start of Season 3): Anthony & Daphne on the periphery, Francesca the main focus of Violet & Lady Danbury’s attention. Violet has generally been more focused on her daughters and less involved in the lives of her other sons — Benedict & Colin. The youngest — Gregory & Hyacinth — are also rarely the focus of her attention.

As Anthony & Daphne fade more into the background of the extended Bridgerton family as they direct their attention & energy towards their new nuclear family with their partner & child, forming new triangles.

Here are Anthony & Daphne’s genograms with their partners & child:

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Start of Season 2: Daphne (Enneagram 2 SX/SO) with Simon (4 SX/SP) who has a turbulent triangle in his own family of origin (red) with his cruel father and Lady Danbury — who steps in as his godmother after his mother dies in childbirth).

As is common for double SX-dominant couples and also Enneagram 2 & 4 combos, Daphne’s relationship with Simon is very emotionally intense and wild. Since Simon also has some childhood attachment trauma and previously vowed to never have children, it’s TBD how his relationship with his own child August (and by extension his connection with Daphne both as a partner & coparent) will be.

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Start of Season 3: Anthony (Enneagram 1 SX/SO) & Kate (8 SO/SX) have a very vibrant, thriving relationship that’s based on several factors: both have common experiences being the responsible, firstborn pillar of the family, have very strong one-up personalities (good equal power dynamic), and similar instinct stacking (both SP-repressed).

Anthony has a lot of complex trauma wounds to heal, but his relationship with Kate and their soon-to-be born child might be very healing as he learns to rest, play, and rely on others again.

Btw, not all triangles are bad — usually new parents naturally form one with their firstborn or only child. The issue isn’t that there’s a triangle, but that sometimes there’s a rigidity & lack of flexibility when new members enter the scene or when two parties insist on not working out their issues directly and overrely on the third party as a go-between.

With Anthony & Daphne (the two corners of the original triangle) fade away, Violet forms a new triangle (pink) with Lady Danbury, both double-teaming on matchmaking for Francesca.

(Try as she might, Violet has been unsuccessful in locking down Eloise as her new project.)

WOOHOO, Congrats!! You finally made it to the final stretch:

 

Time to Heal, Adjust, & Grow:
The Bridgertons in Therapy

Let’s pretend for a second that the Bridgertons lived in present day, and that they were self-aware enough to realize that they got some deep inner work to do.

Here are the kinds of things each of them might reach out to a therapist for:

Daphne (Enneagram 2 SX/SO)

Relationship Crisis:

• Loneliness, difficulty with solitude: Why does Simon work so much? Does he love me?

• Push-pull & hot/cold dynamic: Why won’t he just tell me how he feels?? He keeps avoiding me…Does he love me?

• Overinvolvement in others’ lives, managing others’ relationships: Why isn’t he involved more in Augie’s life? Doesn’t he love Augie?

• Resentment about tasks: Why isn’t he helping more with Augie?

• Relationship Anxiety: Will my family love me even when I’m not the Diamond?

• Resentment about connection: Why do I have to always be the one visiting them??

• Emotional dependence: Why am I so needy? Why can’t I just be okay being by myself?

Identity Crisis:

• Who am I if I’m not the Golden Child or in the spotlight?

• Who am I outside of my relationships?

• I should be happy now that I have the relationships I want. Why do I keep feeling this way?

Anthony (Enneagram 1 Sx/SO)

Emotional Crisis:

• Panic attacks, especially around bees

• Dissociation — being checked out

• Workaholic tendencies: working more than resting/playing, feeling guilty for not being productive

• Irritability, annoyance, impatience, resentment

• Moodiness, especially around the anniversary of Father’s death

Relationship Crisis:

• Unfamiliarity with new power dynamic of being with an equal (Kate): She’s very self-sufficient and capable…I’m not sure how I’m supposed to interact with her or make decisions together…

• Counterdependency: Difficulty letting other people care for him eceiving care

• Codependency: Taking care of others’ needs that they can/should take care of themselves

• Learning that control ≠ love, vulnerability ≠ weak

• Repairing his relationship with his mother

• Being equals with his siblings, who don’t need him the same way

Violet (Enneagram 2 SO/SX)

Emotional Crisis

• The house feels so empty…Will my children visit me?

• Grief: I miss Edmund…

• Loneliness: I miss having a partner. Who will love me for me?

Relationship Crisis:

• Where do I belong in society now that I’m no longer Viscountess? Will I be forgotten?

• Power dynamic shift: How do I handle my daughter-in-law being the decision maker in the house?

• Relationship shift: How do I interact with my all-grown children now? I don’t know what to talk about rather than their kids or relationships…What’s okay and not okay for me to do?

• Desire: What do I do with my blooming garden?

• Boundaries: Why don’t my children want my advice on how to be a parent? Why can’t I see my grandchildren more?

Identity/Existential Crisis:

• Impending Empty Nest Syndrome:

  • Who am I now that everyone else doesn’t need me and is living their own lives?

  • What do I do with all this time?

• Second Act:

  • What will the rest of my life look like?

  • Who do I want to be?

  • Who do I want to be with?

Seeing the Bigger Family Picture in 4D — Past, Present, & Future

Here’s the recap on what we explored in this blog:

• Genograms show us the structure of the family: the WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, and HOW.

  • Significant events — traumas, immigration, addictions, etc.

  • Family roles & dynamics — triangulations, boundary issues, emotional cutoffs, etc.

  • Generational patterns — titles, socioeconomic/class issues, gender roles & expectations, etc.

  • The genogram is a cross section of the family at a specific point in time, and will change as time passes with births, deaths, marriages, estrangements, etc.

• The Enneagram shows us the texture of the family fabric: the WHY each person does what they do.

  • Central themes or values — intimacy, identity, responsibility, freedom, harmony, etc.

  • Defense mechanisms, go-to reactionary patterns that used to help but lead to self-sabotage later

  • Difficulty with certain roles & responsibilities, individuation or setting boundaries, etc.

  • Stuck points & areas of healing/growth

You’ll get a ton of mileage from using a genogram to better understand how each person in your family has come to be where y’all are today (past ‘til present).

Add to the mix the Enneagram, and you get an insiders’ look into powerful yet invisible forces within each person (that drive us to do all kinds of crazy things) so that you can:

• Deepen your understanding & empathy for yourself & others

• Map out your next growth steps so you can break generational curses and create new generational blessings

None of us live in a vacuum. Part of the reason why it’s sometimes so hard to change is because our relationship context remains the same.

You gotta change individual issues individually, and systemic issues systemically.

The genogram shows you the systemic context. The Enneagram shows you your specific individual work.

Start Mapping Your Outer & Inner Worlds

Your patterns didn’t start with you — and they don’t have to end with you either. Learn more about your social context (genogram) and/or your inner motivational engine (Enneagram)!

Genogram

Enneagram

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How Brainspotting can Strengthen Your Relationships

Healing Unresolved Emotions can Improve Relationships

Human connections are the heart of our lives — offering some of our greatest insights, intimacy, growth, and joy.

But they can also be sources of our deepest pain, confusion, and conflict, especially when past wounds, unresolved emotions, or trauma subtly leak out out from our subterranean subconscious parts, warping the way we interpret new situations and respond to our loved ones.

Especially for people who feel deeply — Empaths, Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs), and those with strong emotional intuitions like Enneagram Twos and Enneagram Fours — these relationship dynamics can be even more intense and all-consuming.

Fortunately, our amazing bodies come with inherent ways of healing itself. One such approach that has actually been created as a therapy approach is called Brainspotting, a trauma therapy approach that emerged from EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization & Reprocessing).

Read more about what Brainspotting is or how Brainspotting works, so we can get to the juicy stuff about relationships here!

When Past Relationship Trauma Wounds Spill Over into the Present

Most people who reach out to me for therapy do so less to work on past traumas (especially from childhood), but because a CURRENT relationship is in crisis:

• They can’t shake off the feeling that their current partner is cheating on them like their exes did, even though the partner has been nothing but present, truthful, and supportive.

• They have intense reactions when their 2-year-old throws food onto the floor, and they’re so so frustrated but also don’t want to blow up on their kid for doing what 2-year-olds do

• They feel constantly overlooked at work, but also don’t have the confidence to actually speak up for themselves for fear of criticism or judgment

• They have a hard time opening up to others because they’re waiting for the shoe to drop and be abandoned by others or assume that every gift comes with strings attached

The likelihood that these reactions are based on old relationships and experiences are very very VERY high.

The pickle is when people KNOW they have old trauma to work with because they read all the books and even did therapy before, but they still have no idea how to actually move on or deal with their feelings (like Whack-a-Mole).

Even if you intellectually "know" something isn’t a threat anymore, your nervous system may still react as if it is.

This leads to emotional triggers in relationships. A partner’s raised voice, a delayed text, or a perceived rejection might set off old buried memories or emotions you’re not consciously aware of.

You may lash out, shut down, over-apologize, or spiral into anxiety — not because of what’s happening in the present moment, but because of the ghosts of unprocessed past experiences that are still reverberating in your nervous system.

Namely, your body brain can’t tell the difference between the past and present.

Brainspotting Heals Old Wounds and Clears Outdated Messages about Life & Love

For better or for worse, when intense feelings “leak out” (i.e., we get triggered), we have a window of opportunity to excavate those deeply buried memories (think of the colored core memory orbs in the movie Inside Out) that we don’t have conscious awareness of.

Brainspotting Therapy helps access and clear out those echoes by giving the brain space to process what it couldn’t before. It bypasses the analytical, thinking brain (top-brain) and goes straight to the root — the mammal/emotional mid-brain and lizard/reflexive root brain.

Brainspotting helps us locate those buried orbs, release the emotional charge, reconfigure those memories, and reorganize where those newly processed memories are stored.

By the end of the movie Inside Out, those intense, simplistic single-colored orbs (preprocessed memories) become more nuanced and complex multi-colored orbs (processed, integrated memories) that are much more useful in helping us navigate new experiences with greater wisdom and emotional balance.

It’s hard to describe Brainspotting because it can be such a body-based, nonverbal, primal experience, but here’s a blog that explains how Brainspotting actually works.

…or sometimes it’s easier to just try it for yourself. Actually, if you’re an Enneagram 4 or Highly Sensitive Person, you might already accidentally be doing Brainspotting yourself out of just sheer intuition.

How Brainspotting Helps Relationships

So how does healing old painful experiences actually translate into better, healthier, deeper relationships?

1. Healing Attachment Wounds

Most relationship struggles are rooted in early attachment patterns. If your caregivers were inconsistent, emotionally unavailable, overly controlling, or unpredictable, you may develop anxious, avoidant, or disorganized attachment styles.

These styles often play out in adult relationships—creating cycles of clinginess, withdrawal, fear of abandonment, difficulty with trust, or a strong need to "fix" others.

The Enneagram — a personality framework that I also specialize in — speaks to 9 different ways of seeing and responding to life experiences, including how we relate to other people. The Enneagram speaks to WHY we do what we do — our core needs, fears, and interpretations of life.

Think of the Enneagram revealing those painful muscle knots that put your whole body out of alignment and created other issues, and Brainspotting being the deep tissue massage to “work out” those knots so that you can gain full access to your whole body again.

Brainspotting does this “massage” by:

• Uncovering and processing childhood attachment wounds from our deeper brains

• Recalibrating our nervous systems to feel safe and steady again

• Reorienting our views on life and relationships

• Helping us bring our healing wins into daily experiences, so that you can actually access the hard won peace and courage

When you resolve your old ghosts of past wounds, you’re able to be present, see life, yourself, and others clearly for what they are, and to respond accordingly with all of your internal resources and strengths.

Instead of being bogged down by familiar fears, you’d have more clarity and boldness to fully show up in all areas of your life, including your relationships with loved ones!

2. Reducing Emotional Reactivity

Whether you like it or not, relationships are emotional mirrors. We’re constantly being triggered by others, often in ways that seem disproportionate.

• A simple disagreement can feel like a betrayal.

• A missed call can ignite panic or shame.

These reactions are signals that unprocessed emotions are driving the bus and that we need to resolve them sooner than later, lest they make hard things WORSE or even create MORE problems.

Because Brainspotting allows deep emotional processing without needing to "talk it all out", it helps:

• Reduce intensity and frequency of emotional triggers

• Soften trauma responses like fight, flight, freeze, or fawn

• Increase emotional regulation and self-awareness

(Actually, did you know that you can do Brainspotting without ever saying a single word? The therapist doesn’t even need to know what exactly you’re processing, so it’s great for those mortifying memories that you feel deep shame around!)

What would happen if you were to buy yourself even 1-2 more seconds to slow your reactive roll? It might not seem like much, but even those few seconds might be the guardrails preventing you from sending that vitriolic email to your partner or boss.

What would it be like for you to feel like you’re in SELF-CONTROL, not OTHERS-CONTROLLED or OTHERS-CONTROLLING? How would your life be different if you led with calm wisdom, not chaotic panic?

3. Clearing OUTDATED, Unconscious Beliefs About Love, Worth, & Belonging

A lot of people I work with carry deep-seated beliefs like:

• "I’m TOO MUCH."

• "I’ll be abandoned if I express what I need."

• "Love has to be EARNED."

• "Conflict means rejection."

These beliefs aren’t just mental — they actually live in the body in the form of emotional reactivity. Brainspotting brings these belief/feeling capsules up to the surface so we can dispel their power.

Doing this creates an opportunity for you to bring in more realistic and healthier beliefs, such as:

• "I can be fully myself and still be loved."

• "My needs matter, independently of whether others can meet them."

• "I don’t have to fix others to be worthy."

These internal shifts radically change how you can show up in your relationships. Even switching from an extremist, all-or-nothing perspective to a more nuanced one can do WONDERS in helping you navigate through different situations in your personal and professional relationships.

4. Improving Communication and Intimacy

When you're not overwhelmed by unresolved emotion or unconscious fear, you're more able to:

• Speak your truth without wilting in shame or aggressively blaming

• Hear others without getting defensive or flooded

• Be vulnerable without shutting down

• Set boundaries without guilt (this is a tough one, but you can do it!)

Not only does Brainspotting help you resolve painful experiences, but it can also help you access positive internal resources like peace, courage, and wisdom.

Because of this, Brainspotting strengthens your internal capacity to stay present and steady during difficult conversations or emotional moments, which expands your horizons as to what’s possible in your relationships: deeper intimacy, clarity, and mutual understanding — all without sacrificing yourself.

5. Reconnecting With Your Authentic Self

At its core, Brainspotting (and the Enneagram) isn’t just about healing trauma; it’s about coming home to yourself — your TRUE self.

When you clear out all the mental cobwebs and emotional clutter, you're able to reconnect with your inherent compassion, creativity, and wisdom.

This authentic self is the foundation of all healthy relationships, because you can’t have a relationship between two fragmented people.

Relationship math isn’t 1/4 + 3/4 = 1, but 1 + 1 = 1.

A WHOLE self with another WHOLE self creates a WHOLE relationship.

When both parties are free to be yourselves without the need to perform, people-please, or self-abandon, you can create vibrant, sustainable relationships that are resilient and immune to things like burnout or resentment.

In this way, Brainspotting supports not just relationship repair — but relationship revitalization. You’re no longer relating from old patterns, but from a place of wholeness, with endless possibilities of fulfilling experiences that help both of you feel seen, known, and loved — FULLY.

Why Brainspotting Works So Well for Highly Sensitive People, Empaths, and Enneagram 2s & 4s.

For sensitive folks, traditional talk therapy can sometimes feel overwhelming, too surface-level, or too embarrassing (“Ahhhh — I don’t want someone else to see me like this!! What will the therapist think of me?”).

Another trap is that sometimes sensitive people mistake introspection with processing or resolution. You may understand your patterns intellectually but still feel stuck emotionally. Just because you have a LOT of feelings doesn’t mean you’re actually processing them!

Brainspotting honors your depth, while also making room for your WHOLE brain — thinking, feeling, and being. It doesn’t ask you to explain or rationalize your pain. Instead, it invites you to feel whatever comes up, notice it in your body, and release it in a safe, contained way.

It meets you where you live—in the emotional, sensory, intuitive spaces of the body and soul. So many of my clients who also have a very rich imaginary or spiritual inner world can easily weave them into their Brainspotting session!

There’s no one right way of doing Brainspotting, so the pressure’s off — give yourself permission to do feelings the way that works best for you & your sensitivity without getting lost in the depths! As the person sitting in the boat, the Brainspotting therapist can help pull you out when it’s time.

How to Start Brainspotting

If you're curious about trying Brainspotting to improve your relationships, here’s how to begin:

• Find a Brainspotting practitioner in your state: Look for someone with training in trauma-informed care and relationship dynamics. If you’re in California, here are some fabulous Brainspotting therapists!

• Clarify your intention: You don’t need to have it all figured out — just bring a specific emotional issue or pattern you’d like to work on. (If even that’s unclear, you can even say something like, “I don’t know why, but I just feel…’OFF’. Like there’s a fog around my head.” You’ll be surprised what Brainspotting can work with!

• Stay open: Let your body lead. You may cry, yawn, feel sensations, or just be still. All responses are valid, and none of it needs to make sense (remember, we’re not using the analytical top-brain, but the dream-like emotional and lizard brains!).

• Practice integration: After sessions, give yourself time to rest, reflect, and journal if needed. The work continues unfolding even after you leave the session, so if you have some more involved dreams afterwards, no problem — let your body continue to metabolize.

Brainspotting to Repair Your Relationship with Yourself First, then with Others

At its core, Brainspotting helps you heal the parts of yourself that were hurt in relationship and went into hiding (in Internal Family Systems, we call these the “Exiles”)— so you can thrive in connection with others.

By accessing the body’s wisdom, clearing out emotional blocks, and soothing your nervous system, Brainspotting helps you become more present, resilient, and open-hearted. You don’t have to stay stuck in old patterns or reactive cycles. Healing is totally possible.

That scary moment or relationship doesn’t have to hold you back anymore — instead, you can use your hard earned wisdom as a way to create the kind of relationship that has enough room for you and your needs, too.

With that healing comes a powerful ripple effect: deeper intimacy, healthier boundaries, more honest communication—and a profound return to love, both for yourself and for others.

Ready to Help Your Heart Heal?

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Enneagram Types & Therapy

(Scroll down to see the transcript or to get the All Access Pass!)

I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this panel, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Whitney Russell Stabile, MS, LPC-S, CEDS-C (Type 1)

• Eden Hyder, LPC, LCMHC-QS (Type 2)

• Leslie Bley, LPC-S (Type 6)

• Joanne Kim, LMFT (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I have four panelists with me, all of whom are professional therapists. We have some amazing panels today, as you can see on the schedule. We have a heart types panel, a gut types panel, a head types panel, a parents panel, but this particular panel is for creating some space to talk about mental health.

With some mental health professionals about their observations about each Enneagram type in therapy. So this panel is going to be perfect, for any Enneagram enthusiast looking to get insights or patterns about how their type approaches mental health, and maybe what some of the barriers might be to, you know, healing and growth, but this panel is also going to be perfect for therapists who use the Enneagram or are thinking about using the Enneagram more in their practice.

So without further ado, let me introduce you to our panelists. Um, we have, uh, Whitney Russell Stabile. Can you just wave so we can, and we have Eden Heider and then Leslie Bley and then Joanne Kim. And Eden is on the heart types panel along with Joanne. So you can go over to the heart size panel and hear a little bit more of their story.

But before we jump into our observations, I'd love for you guys just to give a little brief bio of yourself so we can get to know you. Whitney, would you mind going first? Sure.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): So I'm Whitney and I'm married to Joel Stabile and we have four wonderful kids. We're a blended family. So it's a yours, mine and ours situation.

So there's lots of lovely logistics that go along with that. Um, I've been a therapist since 2009 and, um, I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor. I'm a certified eating disorder specialist consultant. I'm also EMDR trained, and I own a group practice called Brave Haven Counseling in Richardson, Texas.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Amazing. And you are type one, correct?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yes, that is right. And you made the type one go first. Like I didn't get to learn what to expect from what everybody else said.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I know you're prepared. So, Eden, would you introduce yourself?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes, I am Eden Heider. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, formerly lived in Texas and partnered with Whitney in the past, um, which has been really fun.

I have a practice with my husband, Michael Heider, who's also a therapist. He's an Enneagram 9. I'm an Enneagram 2. And, the practice is called Inside Out Collaborative. Also have some creative projects that I've dabbled in over the years. One is a podcast called Inside Out Podcast, which focuses on attachment and providing kind of psychoeducational material on attachment and how to integrate that into our concepts of ourselves and our relationships.

And that's kind of where my specialty is as well as an eating disorders and, anxiety and depression.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great Eden. Thank you.

And we have Leslie Bley who have interviewed on a past summit. And so it's good to have you back. Leslie, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I live in Austin, Texas. I have been a therapist for about 20 years. I'm an LPC and supervisor here and I am married to an Enneagram nine. I'm an Enneagram six and my husband and I have twin boys that are 13. So it is a lot of unique smells and sounds and sites in my house, but it's a lot of fun.

And then part of my practice is working with groups. I run a group for women throughout the year called Compassionate Community Therapy, and it's modeled after attachment and motion regulation, story work. And then I also run groups for therapists called Business Vitality, and it's to help support therapists who are often feeling super alone in their own formation and in their business sense.

And I come from a business background, but a therapist heart. And so I try to mix those in these support and business, you know, style groups. And then I also try to do regular Enneagram for counselors, uh, trainings and webinars since there's not a whole lot out there giving tons of real straightforward.

You know, credible ways to integrate this into our world. So that's me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Leslie. And not, but last but not least, Joanne Kim, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I am an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in the Silicon Valley. So in the San Francisco Bay area, and I, in classic or fashion where I get bored very easily, I have three businesses that now I think about on, like, I probably should have just stuck with the one, um, but, I love what I do, in my therapy practice.

A lot of my clients are nines, ones, twos, and fours. So most of the right side of the enneagram, because my people tend to struggle with a lot of anxiety, guilt, and shame. Partially because they have an allergic reaction to anger. So one of my hats is as an Enneagram therapist. So my other hats are around creating a, an online school for feelings, because there's a lot of things that I cover with my clients where they're like, I really wish I'd learned this in school.

And I'm like, got it. I will make one. So, um, that is my joy. It keeps me up at night. Just cause it's a lot of work, but, it's something that I feel like I've been brought on this planet to do so. I am a self preservation for, married to a social one. With my work wife who is a sexual tooth. And so I got both of my aerotypes covered and w definitely grow and stretch each other in all the interesting ways possible So happy to be here and happy to share things related to mental health and how the Enneagram helps inform our path forward.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wonderful. Thank you so much, Joanne. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to go around the Enneagram starting with type one, and I want to spend about five to seven minutes or so on each Enneagram type, talking about maybe one or two observations that you all have, not all of you have to share about each type because we have to put some boundaries and limitations on our time.

It's hard enough to do, to talk about the Enneagram with one person for, for an hour, but it's, it's going to be a little challenging, but I think we're going to. We're going to be able to uncover some great stuff today. So let's start with type one and we can just, just jump in. And really, again, what we're trying to do is just to share some observations so that we can help people maybe recognize some patterns in their own type, and also to help some therapists who are interested in using the Enneagram in their practice to know what to expect if somebody wants to do the Enneagram and, and what to look out for.

So super excited about this, this conversation. So, anyone can jump in now. What about type ones? What do you, what are you seeing in your practice?

Perfection in Progress: How Enneagram Ones Navigate Trust and the Long Journey of Therapy

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I'll say that sometimes type ones are looking for the perfect therapist, so they often struggle with just kind of the imperfection and journey of therapy.

Once they, it takes them a while to really trust a therapist because that inner critic and all of the, the deep shame that they have, like it's going to be a while before they're really vulnerable with that deep stuff. And then once they have established that bit, it's really hard to leave that therapist.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So you are saying that Leslie too, when they don't terminate, they just want to continue on in therapy for a really long time? Is that what you're saying?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, or just not want to even consider transitioning maybe to a different modality. Maybe it's time to work on something from a different angle, but that trust is established and it just doesn't feel easy or good to leave.

And that's been my experience with multiple Enneagram Ones.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, I like thinking about Ones as the improvers, because often they're like called the perfectionists and reformers, and I think that applies to some Ones, but the spirit of the term improver I think captures like the intentions of those who are Ones, and Often other people experience them as being like critical or judgmental, but it's really from this like sense of being connected with this ideal of like the perfect world or how the world ought to be.

And so it can be really lonely for a lot of ones who have that sense because other people don't see it. And so I think one of the things that often get missed with ones is that sadness from. Not being seen in one's experiences, being on this like mission to like help the planet be better. And then also being misunderstood and rejected by other people.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?

Type 1s tend to be more on the like, Restrictive behaviors and or over exercising everyone. I tell people like when they slip over into seven, there might be some binging there, but then they'll come back to one and then be mad at themselves for all the things that they did at seven.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That makes sense.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): That;s control.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, there's a, there's a, a need for that. Yeah. That structure, which I think that the passion for justice, which comes from that really sweet space, almost that, that connection to that ideal that you were talking about Joanne, that need for control and structure.

And I think the eating disorder can really. As well as maybe other mental health systems can offer like a respite from the world, which feels out of control or from their emotions, which feel out of control at times.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I'd say like, anxiety and depression has a certain flavor for ones in that. I mean, I think for ones like depression doesn't look how we typically think of depression like being in one's feels and like, just like, you know, whining and complaining, but it's more of like the existentially type, like in being more resigned, being resigned, like, I don't get to have my wants and needs because like I have to always be on and be responsible.

And so it's kind of one's own individuality, personal wants and needs kind of take the back seat if it's like available at all. And so there's this, I mean, I think that's partially why there's so much resentment buildup, but it's not necessarily just resentment because other people aren't willing to show up for them.

Once I've actually eliminate that option for other people by stepping into those roles themselves first, but to step away from that feels really scary because then it's out of control and out of their agency. It's kind of a cycle that they get into.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Ones usually do look super functional and a lot of the mental health stuff that they're going through like even with OCD or depression, anxiety, eating disorders are usually still very functional, which I think is one of the reasons why it's hard for them to see that there that there's a problem.

Like, my therapist tells me I'm a long sufferer. Like, it takes me a long time. To actually like acknowledge that there's a problem because I can be so functional.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): And isn't that kind of the power of anger as your core emotion to like keep You feeling active. It's very energizing. Right. Doesn't feel depressed.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Alright, let's move on to type 2. I'm curious about Eden's experience.

Boundaries & Burdens: Navigating Shame & Stability in Enneagram Twos

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah.

Oh man. Yeah. When I see type 2's, I think I see it's because there's so much relational instability um, or distress distress And it's the relationship or the relational instability that brings them in, which is often interpreted as their own failure. They've, they're failing in the relationship. And so they're coming in, um, and I think that can translate to a lot of resentment.

Sometimes it can go into a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And I think kind of what you said, Joanne, like telling a one, like. What if you tried to not improve? What if you tried to actually get worse, get worse? Right. In a way, I'm telling it to is what if you tried to set boundaries, it feels, you know, counterintuitive to a two that's struggling with their relationship because that feels like you're creating more conflict.

You're creating more distress. And that is really anxiety-provoking.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): For, I tell two is like, we have to set boundaries. But then the second part is you have to reinforce the boundary and you also have to manage your own feelings about reinforcing the boundary because there is that fear of the disruption in the relationship, but also the shame and guilt that they feel after they set the boundary.

Usually tends to allow them to not reinforce the boundary later. It’s like, they'll say, no, I'm not going to do that. And then they feel so much shame and guilt about saying no. And then they're like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah, there's 2 parts to the boundary battle.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So boundary work is just gonna be a big deal when, when twos in, in therapy.

And I'm next door as a three to the twos. And I, I, I resonate with, with that as well, like setting a boundary with kids or in parenting or anything. And then feeling like the bad guy for, for doing that and then having to wrestle with that. So I, uh, yeah, that's really insightful.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Usually have to give a disclaimer to like two clients who are coming in for therapy.

I'm like, well, I have to kind of assess where they are 'cause. If someone is like, really fused with the type 2 structure, then it's like, well, relationship is everything and so they come in for therapy. As long as their relationship, there's some stuff going on, but then once they resolve those relationships, they're like, well, I'm done.

Right? So they just like, leave, but there are a lot of people who come in and they're like, I don't know why I keep getting in the cycle where, like, I'm putting in so much work. Yeah, in these connections and like, why won't they love me type of thing. And so with those people, I'm like, I'm just going to give you a heads up.

You're going to come in thinking that the main thing is related to relationships. And what is actually going to happen is we're going to work on your connection with yourself just to give them a heads up. Cause not everyone wants that. And so then they can like move on to the next best spot. It's like, people who do know about the enneagram have an easier time sitting with that idea and that they keep like, getting themselves into the cycle.

They can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That’s really helpful, Joanne. That it's sort of therapy's sort of a conditional on a relationship. You might think, well, I need help because this relationship's out of whack. I need help on that. And then I'll leave. And you're like, no, stay, stay.

We need to work on, on you. That's good. Yeah.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): But I think if people are in that place, like as therapists, I'm like, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If anything else comes up in the future, let me know, just kind of leave the door open because I think twos are also more attentive to the relationship between them and the therapist and so like, I, I try to be more mindful about not imposing an agenda that might get them to like, make sure that I'm okay. Or I like them. So I kind of leave things a bit more open ended and it's like, yeah, whatever you're bringing in, like, let's work on that. And if they seem like, you know, I don't know if there's some, something more to this, then I might bring things up more directly. Um, because even knowing what's going on behind the scenes for twos might feel really painful because it feels so embarrassing compared to like fours who like, want you to tell them like all the. Deep dark. It's like, they're usually like, I want you to tell me that I'm not okay with them. I need to take it more lightly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think Michael Sheehan pointed out that in my interview with him, that a lot of times twos are so nice. They're asking him lots of questions. He's like, no, we need to ask you, I need to ask you the questions.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have twos that will, they just, They, they need those, like, first couple minutes of like, checking in with me almost.

And, and we've discussed that and, and made that kind of a part of our contract just to kind of ease them into the process. And I do think twos can struggle. With therapy, especially if they haven't been in therapy before, they may need know that they need help and know that they need to be there sitting in the room, but be very uncomfortable with the focus being on them and not really know what to do without data coming from the other person.

About how they're doing, what they need, how they should be in the room with the therapist.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know, so they're really like, when we are challenging them and saying, listen, you're the one that we're going to focus on. You're the one that all the attention is going to be on. They don't know what to do with that. It's like kind of a little disorienting for them to be the focus and to not be getting that feedback about.

You're doing a good job or I really like you or, you know, like we're, we're vibing, you know, as the kids, the kids, yeah, the last thing that I'll say just very specifically as an eating disorder therapist. I have never had a two in my office that hasn't believed this belief that I'm about to say. They believe that the way their body looks is either going to keep somebody in relationship with them or separate and disrupt a relationship.

And so, Then managing how their body looks through, like, exercise or diet or whatever is like, really important because that is threatening to whether they will have the relationship, whether people will love them or not and I have never sat in a in a session with the two that didn't believe that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Do you know if that's the case for different genders? TBD. I'll get back with you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's really good. Okay, let's talk about type threes.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I don't find a whole lot of threes in my practice because they're often looking for coaches. Unless they're dragged into couples therapy and even then kind of things kind of flame out because. Yeah. The either the shape shifting nature of the three and trying to like look good in front of the therapist or they're like, this is not moving fast enough.

Like, let's go or feelings are too slow. Like, why are we bogging down the process? And so I, I, when I've worked with threes, I like, I feel like there's like a very small window in the beginning where I need to say a very concise version of why the Enneagram is important. And how their type 3 pattern fits.

So that I can, like, map out the sequence. And that we're right here, so this section in the middle might feel like a waste of time. But this is actually the fastest way to get there. And because of that window closes, then I'm like, I don't know if they'll just leave and they don't know if it was actually useful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I had every single 1 of those bullet points listed. So I agree. I do think that 3s can, whether they're coming, you know, is 1 thing, but I think they can be a little bit of a flight risk. It's like they've, they've worked just enough to find a little bit of relief. And then they, they're gone cause that patient is real that they have a, they really struggle with that.

The only other thing that I would say is like, if you've been working with the 3 and they've revealed some behaviors to you that aren't, you know, like, super pretty behaviors that they are really struggling with, they're probably not going to bring them up again. And so like, you have to be the one that kind of intentionally checks in with them about that.

Clients who struggle with porn or addiction or, you know, any other things, cheating. And so I have to be the one that's like, Hey, how are you doing with that? Cause they're not going to bring it up again.

Beyond Achievement: Uncovering the True Self of Enneagram Threes Through Relationships & Vulnerability

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. The threes that I've had in, in my office one day, Therapy can become another subcategory of their performance of their like, I want to accomplish something here.

And so they can show up as very on task and as very like, Oh, you did. Wow. You've accomplished all these things. You've done all these things, or, wow, you've done so much work, and a lot of, I've got a lot of circling back with them that I do and actually, what I've found really interesting with my three clients is family therapy or some type of family or couples where you're seeing them in the relationship where, where oftentimes they're not feeling as competent or there is right.

Something that's happened. And that's been, that's been probably the most revealing, you know, of seeing what's, what's there in a three and then also where I've seen so much healing as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. I'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so, it's so valuable. What, I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're. So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. 'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so valuable. What I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just, just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.

Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.

And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're.

Dealing with them, because a lot of times that friction will be in their relationships because they'll be working so hard and that's what it will be that their spouse or their kids will feel neglected.

They're burnt out all those things and as a self press 3 kind of like a 1 kind of like a self press for like, we can be very like masochistic, very like. Just grinding, grinding, grinding, and no one knows that anything's wrong under the surface.

So it takes a lot for me to actually show if there's something wrong.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): When something you just said, Tyler, with The threes I've gotten to work with and I've, I've had a handful that have just come, you know, to improve. Two things. One is generally when there's like a pretty decent sized stressor to that happens during our relationship, that therapy totally jettisons into something different.

Really starts to get to the heart of things, but almost like with a seven, you, sometimes there needs to be kind of a catalyst, whether it's someone else in the room or a marriage that falls apart or a relationship or a job that falls apart that was really on their milestone benchmark list, that they really begin to do the actual feeling work that is more balancing for them.

And the other thing is there's so much, and this is heart triad, there's, They want to achieve in work and in relationships. There's such a tension I see with threes of succeeding in marriage and family and succeeding in jobs and that sort of work life balance, tension that they have to find at some point.

And I think that's been really neat to watch. They have such big, you have such big hearts, not just trying to climb the ladder, you know, at your job. You also want to be the best dad or the best. Or, you know, I appreciate that tension for threes.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great thoughts, Leslie. Yeah. I think that's just helpful to, for threes to help us normalize getting help, counseling, that just part of the process of life that you're not a failure, or doing something wrong.

It's, it's normal. That's really helpful to have that people remind us of that.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So in the Bible for therapists, the DSM that highlights all these mental health disorders, whatever, in the personality disorder section, there's basically a go to personality disorder for all of the nine types, except for type three.

And I think that's partially because the United States is a very three ish 3 ish, 8 ish culture, and there's a lot of image orientation, things like that. And so. And I'm also, you know, in the Silicon Valley, which is I think very geared towards threes, like the social context really matters in that if a three has shapeshifted into being the successful persona, according to their immediate context, they're not going to be able to see that their personality patterns themselves are an issue.

That's why everyone else usually complains about the three instead of the person realizing it for themselves. And so there are certain professions like, anyone who has a public, platform or a pulpit who thinks that they're doing really well, not knowing that that's actually reinforcing their ego structure.

And so I think it's important for different organizations like communities, churches, whatever, to recognize that. It is a magnet for certain personalities. And that when they shine, that's actually their ego talking. It's not really who they are. And that's part of the reason why it's so hard for the threes to actually get help because they don't know that they're struggling.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I totally agree with that, Joanne. And I wish I could elaborate on that, but, for the sake of time, we'll keep moving here, but I think you said enough really helpful things for, for threes. Okay. Let's, let's move to type fours. What do you want to say about type four?

Joanne, do you want to jump in as a type, as our type four?

Therapy as a Playground: Challenging Enneagram Fours' Ego Trap and Shifting from Introspection to Action

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I mean, in fours fashion, I'm going to say something controversial. So, disclaimer, I think therapy, psychotherapy itself is a fours playground. Because therapy is designed in helping people focus on their internal world and their thoughts and feelings and their past and their trauma and all that kind of stuff.

And to like, you know, really do all this intersectional work that fours know how to do for free. They can do it on their own time. And so I think the trap for fours is that they seek therapy and like end up becoming the therapist's favorite client because the therapist doesn't need to do much work because the four clients already there doing the things that a therapy client is supposed to do.

And I think there's kind of this feedback loop that happens where the four client doesn't necessarily get healthier. Because their ego pattern is just playing itself out in therapy. And so it's important for therapists to know that is the bias that's baked into the profession of therapy, kind of like how coaching can be very like three ish, eight ish, and that my style as a therapist has changed over time to be more coaching like, because what a lot of for clients need is not more focusing on feelings and dredging up all the gunk.

But to get their asses in gear and to like, say, Hey, these things you think is not available to you. And that's why you're struggling so much, partially because you've identified with being a suffering person. But what if you actually have good things readily available to you already? It's not out there somewhere and maybe the only thing that's needed is for you to actually like, Map out the concrete steps and break it down into smaller pieces and actually follow through with those steps in the type one ish Aero type way not a lot of fours are up for that And so in that sense, I think it takes some discernment on the therapist part to recognize like what's the nature of client?

I'm working with here. If there are four are they here to reinforce their identity as a suffering person? Or do they recognize the trap that they're caught in and they want something different? Because if, if that's the case, we need to not do therapy as well. It's traditionally been, we actually need to do more action orientation and more body work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of, uh, fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at, at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.

The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I, I agree with all of that. Like, I think that my job. Working with four is to help them like organize their thoughts and emotions because they can just sit there and swirl And go down deep into them and my job and i'm good at it because i'm a one and that's what I do It's like these go here these go here these go here and now we're gonna now we need to make a plan. You know like holding them accountable to the action um, because I think they The other piece and you touched on this, but like they over identify with their feelings so much like sometimes they really fear any kind of healing.

So it's like, hey, what if we aren't this depressed person anymore? Or what if we aren't like, Really riddled in the shame what then, you know, they don't know who they would be because they over identify with those feelings so much that it can, like, even just imagining a place where they don't experience that is really hard and familiar.

And the other thought was, they, whether they have it or not, they can present as looking like they have ADHD. And attentive type because they can get so distracted by all the shiny objects. And because they are repressed doing, they don't get a lot done and they struggle with like motivation to do ordinary tasks.

And that's what I see a lot. And my clients is. It's like, whether they actually do have ADHD or not, sometimes I just treat them as if they do. And it usually works.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This is, this is so good. Do you guys find that force? Do they, do you feel like they're so introspective that they don't need therapy?

Or do they kind of, once they get into therapy, like type ones, they kind of stay in therapy for a long time? What, what have you guys observed?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Introspection is not self awareness. If they keep recycling the same thing over and over again. Yep. They're more self focused She's so part of it. You're a little

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): echo chamber.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah. Yeah, and so focusing on relationships, I think is an important way in To the self, to the fours work, because other people are in the floor fours slash zone. So there's a lot of this like push and pull dynamic or like pursuer withdrawer dynamic where like, kind of depending on what type of the other people are, if it's, let's say a group context, like work or community, family, church, whatever, it's like, Being the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, like exile, whatever.

There's kind of like a social role piece to the four. And then if it's more of like a one on one relationship, it's like, like magnets, like that switch back and forth. If the person's closed, they get bored and they want the drama and the intensity because they're intensity junkies. And so they're like, I don't want, I don't want to be around you.

Or like, I don't deserve to be around you. And then when the person's far away, I was like, Oh, I missed you so much. That whole thing. So I think because relationships are more concrete than existential, you know, deep purpose, meaning oriented topics where, you know, force can have ideas of the people they're in relationships with and there's the actual people involved.

So sometimes like inviting in their partner or their family member might be helpful so the therapist can see, Oh, like. I had this whole idea. Of this person based on how the four describe them. And now I see this person as they actually are. And there's a world of a difference.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. Introspection is not self awareness.

That is really a good statement.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Fours will get offended by that though. I'll just give you a heads up.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, before we go to fives, I, I just want to say, I do appreciate all the fours watching and the, those who are therapists, you know, you look at guys like Dr. Kurt Thompson and other fours who are just leading voices.

Cause they, it's just, they get the internal world there when they're healthy. They're just, Prophetic in our culture, uh, and really helpful, especially right now, since post COVID, since there's just a boom of people that are needing help and coming to you guys. So we, yeah, I, I really appreciate the fours and I want them to hear that before we, before we transition to fives.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Very short. Self preservation fours are the fours that don't look like fours. They look like all the other types. Depending on their mood. And the main piece for them is that they're the ones who suffer silently solo and they get mistyped a lot and sometimes get turned off by the Enneagram because of that.

And so for self pressed fours, they need, their growth path involves Practicing more of the traditional four ish behaviors, like complaining more often in real time to more people, which feels like pulling teeth, but it's absolutely necessary for them to recognize just how much they're struggling outside of this idea of, I need to be a strong person who can withstand a lot of things.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good, Joanne. Thank you. All right, let's transition to fives. What do you guys have for fives?

I don't see many fives unless they're brought in for a marital. So I'm, I'm curious. About the rest of you and your experience with fives.

Breaking Down Barriers: Navigating the Emotional Guard of Enneagram Fives in Relationships

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I would agree with that. Leslie, when I, when I see fives coming in, it's with a partner, often, and it's when I, when I think about attachment styles, I think about that avoidant attachment style.

So you've probably got an avoidant attached person, the partner that's fucked any room five, and then you've got them paired. Maybe with an anxious style and they activate each other and they're coming in to kind of work on that.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And man, just the one triggering the other triggering the other. Yeah.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I've noticed you just doing Ingram work, not as a therapist. It's really hard to get them to open up because of the privacy. They have such good boundaries and they don't want me talking about the Enneagram a lot of times because it feels like I'm getting to their reading their mail, jumping over the fence, getting into the castle and can very, very uncomfortable.

And so that's interesting to hear you guys kind of say that you've experienced a little bit of that in therapy as well, that it's kind of hard to get, get over the wall or those privacy fences.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. My experience with fives. I've, I've seen a couple and you won't get the full picture until you've been working with them for like a year and then they'll drop this bomb on you and they're like, Oh my God, everything makes sense.

Now it's like this really pertinent piece of information. And then you finally get the full picture and then you're like, all right, now we can do some work.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Oh, my goodness.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It happened to me with one of my fives I was working with recently. I was like, why have we never talked about this?

And she's like, you know. She never asked. She knows the Enneagram too. So we kind of had a good laugh about it.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Besides like relationship issues, professionally fives can struggle a lot. Because they spend so much time in their head and don't take a whole lot of action being actually repressed, like they can mull over something in for forever and then make a decision kind of more reluctantly because there's like a deadline or like stuff like that.

And so they might extend a whole lot more mental energy than the task actually requires. So that's been a struggle that I've. seen quite often and um, either teammates at work or spouses get super frustrated because like there's this delay effect.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Leslie, I think you were going to share something in. And then I also want to hear from you guys if there's any like general anxiety disorder or if there's any other disorders that you see with fives.

I would be curious to know what you see.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Well, I was just going to say, similar to Joanne sharing about, um, the space and the time need. I see a lot of fives that need the encouragement to be allowed to answer questions off the cuff, which is very uncomfortable for a lot of fives. They would prefer to speak accurately and accuracy takes time and reflection and information. And so being allowed to say, you can change your answer down the road. We're not holding you to this. I would just love to hear what you are. able to track or notice and you can circle back anytime it's okay to not quite get it, but there's this, there's just a tension around speaking off the cuff for a lot of fives and therapy is so in the moment so often.

And I think that I've seen that barrier.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. One thing I've noticed with my own mother is a type five is maybe this is Like the, like share with the ones, they, they're looking for the perfect therapist like I know for my mom, my mother is a five and a wonderful five. There's only like a particular kind of person that she'll go to.

And so maybe is it a little bit like that too? Does it maybe fives have a hard time of going to a therapist that they view as maybe competent or, You know, I don't know if you've seen that, but I was just thinking about that off the top of my head.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I wonder if there's a conflict between what they want and what they need when they're looking for a therapist.

What they, what they're wanting is someone who's right, as intellectual as they are, can kind of recite things to them, can lay it out very, um, rationally and logically, but maybe what they need is someone who can sit there and hold space and invite the emotion, invite the questions, invite uncertainty, and let that be a safe place for them to feel that.

But I think there's a conflict there.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): If there's any further thoughts, you can jump in. Otherwise let's move to type six.

Embracing the Pendulum: How Naming Duality Brings Freedom and Clarity to Enneagram Sixes

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): This is my number. I can jump in and say something since I'm a six and I've done a lot of therapy, on both sides of the chair. I really think being allowed to name, and this is how the Enneagram changed my life and it felt again, like kind of somebody had put Jumped into my backyard and had been stalking me and all that exposure was, was challenging.

But to name these dualistic experiences of having some love hate for things, having some fear and courage for things, having this extreme dependent times and extreme independent times, almost showing up like disorganized attachment, if you're familiar with kind of the sort of bifurcation of, of both anxious and avoidant styles.

And there's just a lot that feels kind of like this internal turmoil. And until a lot of sixes get any, Enneagram language, they can just feel kind of crazy. Anything from paranoid to, bipolar to, I mean, just to have somebody name this internal phobic to counter phobic continuum in a way that's safe and feeling seen and loved in that and where the gifting is in that, I think, is is huge for sixes.

And it's been really important for my own freedom, my own work to not feel like I am two different people, even though I can experience these extreme differences and this back and forth. That's really good. Leslie.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, Leslie, I'm married to a six, so I wish I would have heard that 18 years ago to know that I was marrying a, a bundle of opposites who could, you know, swing on a pendulum and.

And to just show compassion and have empathy for that and come alongside them and not, not freak out about it.

I wonder if one thing that gets outsourced by sixes is power and authority, disconnecting from their own power and authority, projecting it outwards, and then someone else takes on that power and authority.

And then the six, depending on the subtype, have different ways of interacting with the projected person. So having this sometimes conflictual relationship with authority figures or like completely fusing and aligning with them and that because of that the growth path for six is involved Recognizing that a lot of their mental activity or their anxiety or whatever comes from them having disconnected from their own power their work is to Bring that back, take ownership, make a decision, be decisive, and then own the outcomes of their decision knowing that they can make new decisions along the way so that they don't need to make this huge big decision up front that might set them off on a forever path and having more boldness and courage to face reality.

Each moment for what it is.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, just saying to sixes, what do you want in this situation? What are you thinking? What are you hoping for? What's been working for you? What's not been working for you? Anything that they can name on their own. Cause we're, we're a both and. We are a flight risk cause we get suspicious that you're seeing something wrong with us.

And we are over relying on authorities. And so there's kind of this, um, challenge there. We don't want to over rely on a therapist authority. We need to develop that gut centered self attachment. But then we also don't, we can be a flight risk if we feel unsafe or we perceive something is unsafe in the relationship.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): The one thing that I'll say about working with sixes is that, you know, they, because they're thinking dominant and thinking repressed. They are really good at rationalizing a lot of their fears and all of their worst case scenarios and They do really value their ability to kind of scan the horizon And so like a therapist does have to be very gentle and they're challenging of those like thinking patterns because A six identifies with them very strongly.

And so if you're like, hey, that's not totally real, or that's not totally a great way of thinking, that, that can be really challenging for the therapeutic relationship. So you have to be really gentle in how you challenge some of their anxieties and some of their fears.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think to Leslie's point, and then what, what you shared.

Whitney, that's just me talking, not as a therapist, cause I'm not one, but just from experience of having, you know, maybe being married to a six and then also having a counterphobic six son, there's lots of conversations about authority, and I'm not sure if that plays out in therapy with, with sixes of like, maybe, you know, kind of directing your attention towards some of those issues in their life and helping them work through issues of authority, like being, uh, overly trusting of authority.

Like I know my wife is very trusting of me. It makes me makes me wonder sometimes like I think she's she's leaning on me too much or trust me too much. Like she's fighting for me like an eight. And I'm like, I don't know if I deserve that. And or she should be doing that. She's just so like loyal, you know, to me.

And then my son is just, you know, rebel kind of as a counterphobic six, just rebels against all authority, even, and he's like a master rationalize, rationalize, or you know, he finds ways to get out of being under my authority.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It also sounds like your son has a seven wing. He's able to figure out how to get out from under your authority pretty easily or quickly.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I don't know. I mean, it feels like he acts as it's both pretty well. Anything else, uh, observations on sixes? Oh, go ahead, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I was just going to say, as you said, authority, I really thought of the word safety. And I think that is, that is what authority and like that's the testing of authority and the counter is a counter phobic, right?

That pushes against the is really wanting to know that they're safe, that they're going to be safe right. In these, in these relationships in life. And, and when I when I'm working with sixes, I think that's part of the work that I do. Even like, Hey, what's what makes you feel safe in this room?

Right? Like kind of building up that internal sense and intuitive sense of safety and power, Joanne, like that there's, they can hold that sense or what gives them that sense on their own apart from. These outsourced source of power

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): lines, like moving away from polarization and more integration that they can be steady and exposed to risk all at the same time, that one does not negate the other, but it's more like knowing how to rest in that in between

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): and build up the tolerance for feeling unsafe sometimes, because.

Yeah, it is not a safe. This is not a safe world in a lot of ways. It's not guaranteed, right? And so building the eat and I love your, like, what is safe for you? How do we create that? But then at the same time, building the tolerance around not always feeling safe, but feeling connected and embodied, like Joanne was saying, that's so important.

Then the more you, the more sixes trust their gut, the more they can weather unsafe times, unsafe or truly unsafe experiences.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This has been great guys, talking about issues, authority, safety, like you mentioned, Eden, helping them to feel safe. No, you know, a lot of sixes struggle with, with anxiety.

And so helping them with that and helping to give them compassion for outworking of their strength of protecting of seeing what could go wrong in order to protect Their loved ones. And so that they feel like they're hardwired with vigilance, uh, for a positive reason to, to protect. And you can see why they would get anxious.

That vigilance is starting to get out of hand a little bit, but just to be a source of. Bring a sense of reassurance and comfort to them to help them to realize that they're not the problem, that this is, there's not something wrong with them, is, is incredibly helpful. Okay, should we, let's move to type sevens.

Navigating the Painful Paradox: Understanding Enneagram Sevens and Their Unique Relationship with Hardship

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): That hard is harder for sevens. That is my internal mantra. And I believe it and I feel for them in it.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Does anybody want to build off of that? Hard is harder? What you mean by that, Leslie? Or or anything you want to, else you want to share?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, what I mean by that is the tolerance for suffering, if it hasn't been, been built and it gets built in different ways, and often it gets built in ways you didn't sign up for, but the tolerance for pain, the tolerance for hard things for, taking responsibility for themselves, for moving away from satisfaction and demand from.

moving away from more is more. It just seems to me that their capacity and tolerance around suffering is just very challenging for them. Very, if it doesn't, if it can't kind of be moved forward quickly or bypassed with, information or something, it's, it's just so hard. To weather, a lot of the pain of just suffering of various kinds.

So to me, I really do feel for them that the hard feels a lot harder, um, than maybe some of us might approach hard. And

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I would almost say it's like, they're not even experiencing the suffering. So it's almost like they're not, they haven't like built a tolerance. There's so much compartmentalization of the suffering.

I'm married to a seven, so I, I can talk all day about what goes on with the seven. In my experience, sevens do have a lot of addiction. There's a lot of suicidal ideation, sometimes even suicidal attempts, can have a lot of anxiety, but a lot of anger at the same time. As a therapist, you will need to catch their reframing at like every turn.

Because you'll say something and challenge them and then they'll bring something else up to kind of negate what you said. And it's very rational and logical, but you gotta, you gotta catch them in it. Cause like you were saying, Tyler, like about your son, which was what was making me think that, you know, that seven wing, like they're so good.

At arguing and coming up with all different kinds of reasons about why something will work or, you know, whatever their, whatever their side of the argument is, they're so sophisticated and so quick at being able to come up with arguments for their side. And that is one of the reasons why it's really hard for them to be for them to change.

And even to be motivated to change and like, they do have to have some internal motivation or it's not going to happen. Like external motivators don't really do it. You know, I'm often telling my clients or even my clients who have 7 children, you know, like. You can try to give them all the consequences you want, like, life ultimately is going to be what teaches them those lessons, those like, unchangeable situations that they can't just negotiate themselves out of, those are the things that are going to be motivating to them, and Finally give them some kind of internal motivation for change.

They can have a lot of difficulty making life decisions. They can have difficulty caring for themselves. And I honestly think because they are, you know, that they're repressed and feeling, and they have no. intuitive line or access to feeling and emotions like emotion education and awareness is a non negotiable treatment goal.

Like, sometimes they will say that they know what emotions are, but like, do they actually experience them and emote them and talk about them with their loved ones? Like that takes so much work for a seven to be able to do and it takes a lot of patience for them as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Those are good thoughts, Whitney.

So what, when do, when does a seven show up in your guys office? What's, what's happened? Can you speak to that? Is it an addiction?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Sometimes I think it's like the people in their lives that are like, we can't do this anymore. Like you have got to do something, you know, a lot of times sevens will Work their way into a relationship where the other people are changing so that they don't have to change other people are kind of picking up the slack or enabling their behaviors in a lot of ways and so a lot of times it is like the people in their lives are like listen we're not going to do that anymore and having to hold that firm firm boundary with them. That's when I see them or addiction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): for sure.

I like thinking about sevens and the context of the idealist triangle along with ones and fours, like the three legged stool. We need all three legs to be even. It kind of like also overlaps with like the internal family system model of like the ones being the grownup, the fours being the teenagers and the sevens being the kids, but we have all of them, regardless of our type.

And when we overly rely on one leg of the stool and we underutilize the other ones, then things are just going to fall apart at some point. And so the piece that I think sevens outsource to other people, suffering responsibilities, type four, type one. And so like somebody else in their life probably occupies those positions, even if they're not ones and fours, like, there's a lot of sevens on relationships with very responsible people and they get, they get resentful.

So, you know, drag the seven into calls therapy or whatnot. But up until then, part partners or family members are the ones who are just putting in so much. And that is that external motivation like they're getting sevens are getting all this pressure from the outside because they themselves don't want to do it.

It's not personally important to them. They just need to wait out storm of the other person's complaints and eventually the person's going to give up and they're just going to do it themselves until the relationship gets so strained that the person who's been kind of nagging or whatever. It's like, I ain't doing this anymore.

I'm out. And then all of a sudden, the seventh, so I was like, well, where'd you go? And then they have all these bills to pay and like things that they completely neglected. So I think, I think a lot of times the way to get a seventh attention is that rock bottom experience, either through addictions or divorce or whatever.

They lose their job, where they don't have any more options literally available to them. And if the seven happens to make their way into therapy and they're open because they have no other options and life has already fallen apart, I like using the metaphor of the human body made of flesh and bone. If you have no structure in the human body and the, you know, it's just a bag of skin and organs on the floor, that person's not living.

In the same way that a person who's all bones and no flesh is not living either. So, structure, order, organization, responsibility, the things that the seven resists actually bring about the very life force that makes life as beautiful as it is. So, if sevens are seeking freedom, to thinking that freedom equals no limits, then they're going to paint themselves into a corner where they're completely restricted.

The opposite of which is if they actually choose limits and self limits, self imposed limits, which is basically taking responsibility. Then they have all these options available. So I think like there's some part of like maybe mentally or intellectually, like mapping that out for them saying like, I know you want freedom.

I want that for you too. Let's not get into a power struggle between the service and the client, but how can you actually give real freedom for yourself? Yeah. By voluntarily opting into some of these responsibilities. I think the power struggle piece is pretty big with sevens because they're very good at weaseling their way out of it.

And so I think it's important for therapists to not get it caught up in that either By becoming the next nagging person. So having a more neutral like more passive. Sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good Joanne some really deep and profound thoughts there as we move to type X, we have to keep moving here and we have two more types, but I'll just make a note that.

You know, my, for, if you're, if you have a friend or family member or partner, that's assertive type, like a three, seven, or eight, or maybe a five, who doesn't want to open up. It's okay to, to, to call them out and say, Hey, I'm not okay with this anymore. This behavior, we need to go and get help. I, you know, I didn't want to get help in my marriage was struggling.

You know, maybe a four or five years in the marriage, but my wife has a six had the enough courage to say, to come out and say, this is not okay. You're working too much. You're always listening to hundreds of podcasts, filling your mind, like there's no space for me. There's a, this is a problem and she was, she will, she was able to do that as a six for nines, you know, and other times it might be harder to, to say that so we're just giving old permission here to, to come at the threes like me or the sevens or eights, if you're in married to an assertive type, or no assertive type, and it's just.

It's harder because they have more power, more energy and, but to have permission to call them out and say, Hey, we need to get some help. We'll keep you from getting stuck and so have the courage to, to get them into, to the counseling office. Okay. With that said, let's move now to the eights. What do you guys want to share about the eights?

What do you guys see?

Embracing the Power: Navigating the Intimidation and Progress Anxiety of Working with Enneagram Eights

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I love working with eights. Um, I didn't think I would because as a six, I can be intimidated by powerful frames, frameworks, words, energy, dominant energy, that kind of thing. But I, I really enjoy working with eights, but something Joanne said, I see it, you said around threes and I think it's similar with being able to describe, this is kind of what the counseling process is.

This is what you may be frustrated by, but just know that you can get through that. We're going to get to this kind of outcome. I feel like aides in my caseload are the most likely to wonder if we're making enough progress or if they have enough of a sense of our, are we doing the things we should be doing with our time or there's just a lot of that evaluative presence around outcomes, progress.

And so I think like you said, outlining some of the ups and downs of this a linear experience can be helpful to validate for them, but it isn't going to be, maybe that linear and so, um, to normalize that early. And empathize with that early.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Leslie, I love what you said about like, when it's coming to the room and the dominant energy, I know immediately when an eight comes to the room, because you, I feel that wave of intimidation.

Right. And you're like, okay, here we are. Right. Like, gotcha. Right. Like and, and then being able to, I think in my attachment work as a therapist, I understand that as this is. Take this as this is how people outside of this room can experience this individual. And this is an experience that they have, and they, and they have that experience of people reacting against this intimidation.

And that may be part of why they're coming into the room.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good Eden.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): In my experience working with eights, their future orientation is often what is giving them so much trouble, like within in relationships or even with themselves. Like they have a hard time like stopping. And pausing and attending to like their own physical pain or their own emotional pain because they're doing dominant they can like shut all that off and just like get the job done and move on to the next thing so that anything like any pain is often cannot be attended to.

And so. Having them slow down is really important and the thing that I see sometimes is like, we'll talk about a problem or an issue, especially an emotional one or something that's causing some kind of relational conflict. And then the next session, we don't talk about it again. And I'm like, Hey, we gotta go back around to that thing.

I know you've already moved on to, like, the next problem or the next issue, but like, this is, this is a big deal. We need to. We need to keep giving this attention, um, and they sometimes don't like that, but it is that, that future orientation. She's like, okay, well, that's done. And now I'm moving on. And now I'm going to get on with the next thing.

I also see them struggle a lot at work and like, it's the same struggle with authority, but there's this, I think, very different because they often don't see an authority figure that's worth following. And I think that's or that's doing the job that they think should be done. And so just that like conflict they see so much with their bosses or like their organization at large, doing the things that they don't agree with can often cause a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, um, a lot of just dissatisfaction.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, that's a good observation, Whitney. That you might be talking with an eight about, yeah, work dynamics, bosses, authority figures. That's really helpful. And going back to what you said, Eden, about the privilege of working up close with an eight and seeing some of their emotions and softer side that other people don't get to see that that was really sweet, the eights are, are so great when you can get up close, with them.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): My other son's a type eight. So yeah. You got a lot of energy in that house.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I have a counterphobic six son and an eighth son and I'm a heart type. So I'm just like, just, yeah, yeah. Are you thankful for me? Do you love me? Why are you, why are you mad at me? That's how my, that's how my conversations go.

I realized I'm very high maintenance when it comes to. Meeting, like, love and affirmation back when, yeah, that's good.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I think the action orientation of type eight forward movement for focus, not a whole lot of patience for the nitty gritty details that are like high level visionaries. Like, I just want this, let's get there.

Like what's in the way of why are you causing troubles? Like it's not complaining move. So in terms of like communication style with eights, I think this is a case for across all types when we're interacting with someone of a certain type, the more we double down in our own type, the more intense their patterns get.

On the other hand, if we move closer to them and act like they act generally, then that minimizes the polarization. So talking to an, a, you know, open chest, direct eye contact, like own your own power and engage them directly and get straight to the point. Don't explain a whole lot. Don't apologize. It's like, just.

Say the thing that needs to be said, say the action item, I think that would smooth out a lot of relationships just like off of that. Not all eights are angry all the time. I think that's a misconception. I think they're very big presence, very energetic, very intense. I think that maybe conflict, engagement, colliding with the eight is a form of intimacy.

So when other people pull away and they withdraw the aid, it's like, where'd you go? It comes after them. And then other people like, avoid the aid even further and that's a whole cycle. So, I think it's I think because opposites attract. Those who are in relationship with aids probably need to like, gear up and then actually own their power and strength.

And then the eight doesn't have to be as strong because someone else is doing it. Like even with like leadership, like eights don't sense that anyone else is like a good enough leader that they occupy the space. They don't themselves want to be the leader. And so I think in relationship context, that's a lot of where the eights patterns show up because relationships are in the blind spot of the eight.

And so I don't know if eights would readily. Here, like, in order for you to improve your relationships, therefore, you need to do X, Y, Z, because I don't know if they have the patience for that. But like speaking to them, like, if you want to make a bigger impact in your wife, then you have to know how to work with people.

And that is why it's important to work on relationships. It's kind of like coming in through the back door.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well put Joanne. Okay. Let's, we got to move on to type Nate nines, uh, our last type. So let's, let's do it. Let's finish the, finish the circle here. What do you guys have for type nines?

Waking Up from Numb: Exploring the Hidden Struggles and Somatic Symptoms of Enneagram Nines

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I'll jump in.

First off, my husband's a nine and the nines that I've interacted with in my office as well, there's such a loss of self that there's They they have no idea what they want or they want everything because everything sounds plausible right, and so there's there's kind of aimlessness. Maybe that's there.

I would also say that some nines may never even make it into the therapy office because their mental health symptoms become psychosomatic become enter their body instead of. Their, their mental health, it goes into a different category. So they're going to develop physical symptoms versus emotional symptoms.

I have nines that come in with like heart palpitations that develop or with digestive issues, and they're going to seek out support around that before they even come to a therapist, because that's the issue, not the emotions that have built up in their body.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great, Eden. Yeah. That makes total sense.

Not even being a therapist, knowing that nine suppress their anger, deny their anger, but it's got to go somewhere. And so you're saying it shows up in the body. That's that's really insightful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, they kind of want to avoid anything uncomfortable like uncomfortable emotions physical sensations Anything in relationships, it's uncomfortable.

They really will try to just not be present for it I had a client who gave me some really good analogies for nines and she was like It's like we play possum like something uncomfortable comes up and we're like, oh, bye They just kind of check out and they numb themselves so much. And so I think for nines, a lot of my work is just like honoring the feelings that they have instead of numbing the feelings they can be so hard to get to do any kind of like action oriented therapy work or like creating any kind of change.

So a lot of motivational interviewing. Again, you know, sometimes I have a lot of nines that show some like ADHD type symptoms. So there's a lot of kind of working through some of that. A good thing that I think it was, I think it was Joe Stabile. Suzanne's husband said one time that interesting relationship between nines and ones and anger and sadness, like when a nine is sad, they're actually angry.

And when a one is angry, they're actually sad. And so like nines do kind of tend towards more like depression or sadness. But when you really get down to it, they're probably actually really angry about something. And they've just never attended to that anger or like the boundaries that were violated or them not getting their needs met.

And so they're sad about it, but they're actually really angry. It's just so interesting to be. Kind of delving into that with them and a lot of the, like, kind of what Eden was saying, but also that more 10 tending towards depression do see quite a bit of suicidal ideation with nines as well.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. That that's.

Very powerful, Whitney, the feelings having come out in sadness, I can see that with some nines to talking a lot about painful experiences in the past and continuing, continuing to talk about them and bring them up over and over again, being sort of sad about it, but it just, this, a loop that never stops.

So that, that's really helpful.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. And it's like their orientation to the past is how they define themselves. And so it's hard for them to just process through everything in the past so that they can move forward. They get really stuck. Like you were talking about.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): And great plug for ones too, to realize for yourself when you're angry, to realize that you're really sad so we can have more compassion on our ones.

That's. I've been hearing some things about nines I've never heard before. This is very, there's very helpful for me. Any last thoughts on type nines?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I will just say that I've been encouraging nines to do group therapy. The individual relationship can be really intense for nines cause they don't always want to do that deeper process work or they don't want to go to the anger, which they have to in order to process pain, but group work can feel a little bit like more collaborative and it can also feel like they have some shared space and it's not so intense. On them, and that maybe they can kind of build some camaraderie, with other people. And I've just seen some really big shifts when I've sent clients that are nines to do group work alongside our individual work.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, to piggyback off of that, I mentioned earlier that like therapy itself is a very four ish space, and the four is known as the individualist, and I think that's the opposite for nines. In like blending in and merging with something else to not be a self like usually people think of like sloth as lack of activity there's a lot of action focus.

So I think for nines, it's a disconnection from self like falling asleep to oneself Disconnecting from self agency. So I think of nines like a card neutral gear or as type three. That line is like being the gas pedal and the type six being the brake pedal. You need all three to have a functioning car.

And so inaction is itself an action. And often nine to like say in relationships where I work, find themselves being more kind of reactionary to what others around them do. Not knowing that are the reason why the pressure is applied to them is because they've disconnected from their own initiative Engine, and so I've heard that like the most powerful type in all the Enneagram types is actually type 9, not type 8, not type 1, not the more like assertively known types, but when a 9 taps into their internal world like you better get out of the way. There's no stopping them. So I think a lot of body work is pretty good for better for worse.

I think nines tend to be conduits for energy. Absorbing other people's stuff or absorbing nature's energy and I think in that sense body movement Might be a good way to metabolize some of the uncomfortable experiences more than like top therapy or mental or emotional work.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, tacking on to that, Joanne, I will point my nines to, um, spending time in nature, going to a park, sticking their feet in the earth, you know, having some way of connecting with that animal therapy, right?

Pets can be a powerful resource for nines and then body work too, those are, because there isn't, there's no perspective there to merge to, right? It feels safe in a way. Yeah.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And cause they spend so much of their time being hypervigilant and like assessing other people and perceiving and observing everyone else kind of looking out for conflict.

Like that goes right along with what you were saying, Eden, like if they can tune into their body or nature or animals, like they don't have to be hypervigilant. Be protecting themselves.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): And the hypervigilance is very draining, very draining.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Whitney, I'd heard Suzanne say on, maybe it was in a conversation with me, I can't remember now, I think we were going around and talking about different correlations she had seen with mental health and she'd said like nines, she saw a lot of nines with ADD.

Which is now falls under the ADHD umbrella. And so the non, is it the non attentive kind of ADHD? Is that how you say it? So that's just something to be, to be aware of, uh, when you're working with nines, if you're a therapist. Or like that combined type. To you know, you mentioned Whitney, they can play possum, which is really good, a good illustration.

And just like sixes kind of swing in the pendulum of phobic to counter phobic. Do you guys experience nines is sometimes swing on the pendulum from like playing possum to then making dramatic moves. Do you see any of that that's causing any issues to be aware of? Leslie, you're nodding your head. Can you speak to that?

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, I think from session to session, I can see the inertia principle, like whether it's they've been in low energy and so there's tons of low energy in the session or they're in that inertia and there's lots of energy. And I, I think 9th, you know, both. They're one wing and just who they are, there's a lot of idealism.

And so sometimes I say this about nines, I don't know if I'm right, but it's like they can envision things in from a three space, but they can't carry them out. And so I'll see like big endeavors or big words without the work, but like big words about what's going to happen, what they're going to do, what they're going to tackle.

But I know they don't have the energy to match that. But we need to kind of titrate down to something that is doable so they can actually feel self esteem.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. That's helpful. I see some other people nodding, so I must agree with you, Leslie.

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I usually at the end of every session with the nine, we have concrete goals that they're supposed to achieve between that session and the next one.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's so good. Whitney and I have, I have a type nine. Book club right now. And one guy just emailed me today saying that he had, he had read through it, but now being in a group with other nines, he's getting so much more out of it because they're challenging each other and spurring one another on.

And so I, I like what you guys said about maybe the group work, or even just being with you, being in a room with somebody else that can hold them accountable, set goals, like you just said, Whitney. That can be incredibly helpful for a nine. So if you're nine, just know that you don't have to do it, uh, by yourself or try to do, do it alone.

So yeah, that's really good. Okay, we're out of time. Please share where we can find you guys online, uh, any resources you want to point us to. Uh, let's, let's start with you, Whitney. I would love for people to continue to learn from you like, like I've learned from you today. So where can we find you?

Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, so my group practice is Bravehaven Counseling. We're in Richardson, Texas. Um, you can find our website. www.bravehavencounseling.com. And then on Instagram, our Instagram handle is @bravehavencounseling and my individual Instagram is @whitneylpc.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. And all the links you've already given me.

So I'll put them down in the show notes. So people can easily click on those. So you don't have to take any notes right now. Thank you, Whitney. What about you, Eden? Where can we find you?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So I'm counsel out of Charlotte, North Carolina, but I serve Texas and North Carolina when it comes to therapy work with individuals and couples and that practice is insideout collaborative.com. And then I also do attachment coaching with couples and individuals, outside of those States as well. So that there's a little bit about that at insideoutcollaborative.com, but also edenheider.com and my Instagram is @edenheider. And that podcast that has more attachment focused, material is Inside Out Podcast.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. Thanks, Eden. Leslie, remind us where we can find you again.

Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, just Leslie Bley Counseling. I have a team of therapists under me here in Austin. I'm also licensed in Missouri, so Texas and Missouri residents. If you're a therapist, you can find resources like Enneagram for Counselors and the Counselor Vitality Groups that are all on that same website.

And then I'm also enneagramconsultant.com for more professional use of the Enneagram with teams and companies that want that kind of lens for understanding their staff.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great. Thank you, Leslie. And thanks for all the, yeah, the work that you've been doing and creating community for other counselors and therapists, that's, that's been really beneficial, and Joanne, where can we find you?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, with my Enneagram therapist hat on, I'm in California in the Silicon Valley, and I have a freebie guide, The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types. because each of the types have different ways of dealing with the emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, and NUMB. I'm also a feelings translator on the side, and that's beyond the state of California as well.

And I built a school about feelings, and in a way that's not just for heart types. Uh, so that people of whatever types can recognize that emotions have a central spot in helping us be more well rounded. They have a logic of their own and there are some action items that go along with them. So, and you can find me at intelligentemotions.com or on Instagram @intelligentemotions.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Fascinating, a feelings translator, that's, that's incredible. And like feelings resource. That's why I appreciate having all of you on the, your different anywhere, you're going to have times, you're all have different strengths. And I just want to thank you for, for joining me.

I know it's really hard. You're all professionals. You have clients. It's hard to find a time to get us all together, but we did it. And I'm so thankful for you. And I know those watching are thankful as well to have learned from you. I know I learned from something, something from each of you guys that I didn't know.

Before, and so this was really helpful to me and I know it's helpful to the Enneagram enthusiasts out there, the therapists out there. So thank you so much for just carving out this space to be a blessing to so many people. And a reminder to those watching, make sure to go back and check out all the other panels today.

The heart types, the head types, so many great panels to listen to today to really get a feel for all the Enneagram types when it comes to their own. Personal mental health stories. So make sure to go and check those out today. And if you don't have time to watch all the panels today, you can get the all access past, which will give you lifetime access to all the panels and all the sessions and all the transcripts, for this whole, any summit.

So if that's interests you, make sure to go check out that, but so much for joining us today. Before you head over to the next interview, the next panel, remember to do two things, like seek support. And share compassion because you are not alone.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Enneagram Heart Types Panel: Type 2, 3, and 4

(Scroll down to see the transcript or to get the All Access Pass!)

I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this video, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Eden Hyder (Type 2)

• Stephanie Cross (Type 2)

• Jordin James (Type 3)

• Amanda Nagy (Type 3)

• Joanne Kim (Type 4)

• Boonie Sripom (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Real-Life Stories of Growth

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Welcome to the Heart Types Panel here on the Enneagram and Mental Health Summit. I have six panelists with me, two type twos, two type threes, and two type fours. And the goal of this panel is to supplement the 25 main sessions here on the summit with real life stories. And these brave individuals and coaches with me are a blessing to us because they all are going to share a little bit of their story about their own mental health journey and talk about it through the lens of their Enneagram type.

And so I have here with me, here are the six panelists. I'll start with the type twos. We have Eden. She is a licensed therapist, mom, and psychology teacher out of Charlotte, North Carolina. She is an expert in attachment and works with couples and individuals as a relationship coach across the country.

Eden also specializes in treating eating disorders in teens and adults. Currently she is, she has a thunderstorm, in her city. The next two is Stephanie Cross. She lives in Lexington, North Carolina with her husband. She has worked as a writer and editor for the last 10 years.

When she's not working, go find her at the gym, traveling, exploring outdoors and hanging out in coffee shops and working on her newest interest, writing a young adult fantasy novel. Okay. We got the threes up. We have Jordin James. She is a trauma kid who has learned how to feel genuinely happy and safe in the world again.

Her home base is Portland, Oregon, but she works and lives all over the world. She has a coach who helps narcissistic abuse survivors feel safe and happy in relationships. Amanda Nagy is a certified Enneagram coach, psychology instructor, and health coach. She has three years of experience in coaching, 17 years teaching high school and college students, and 13 years of school counseling.

Amanda is a Texas native, but has lived in Idaho for the last 22 years. And last up, we have our type fours. We have a Boonie Sripom. She is a personal development coach for sensitive and creative individuals, especially geeks and gamers. She also offers worksheet workshops and consults on supporting neurodivergent learners to therapists, educational organizations, and parents.

And she lives in California. And then we have Joanne Kim. Lastly, she is an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in Silicon Valley. And she helps people discover and grow beyond their emotional reactive patterns, massage out their painful, emotional knots that keep them stuck and transform their biggest feelings into their greatest superpower.

Okay. Thank you so much y'all for being with me. I just want to applaud your courageous hearts and wanting to share a little bit of your story so that we can all learn and know that we're not alone. So I just want to thank you right off the bat for joining us today. So without further ado, let's kick things off, with Stephanie.

So would you spend a few minutes, Stephanie, sharing what your diagnosis is or your mental health battle The mental health battle you faced and just a little bit about your story.

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Sure. I'm Stephanie and I am a two. I have struggled with mental health my entire life. First starting with depression and anxiety because I was bullied.

Then growing into, grief over the last year. I lost my brother who was like my happy place, happy person and like biggest offender and protector growing up. So, that sent my two heart into a bit of a tailspin, a little bit of like maybe even an identity crisis there for a little while. And it was so hard as a helper type to be the one who needed help all of this.

And I had no idea how to ask for that, no idea how to ask for what I needed. And it was also a huge struggle to have patience with people who didn't show up the way that I would have and to see that like, man, I didn't always do things the best way, other friends who were grieving and so it's been a huge learning process, a learning curve, um, and obviously like the diagnoses of depression, anxiety, and PTSD, like really play into that as well.

So, that's kind of where I am on my journey. It might be a little bit hard to talk about, but I'm going to try to do my best with that. It's still somewhat fresh. Um, we'll hit the year anniversary, August 25th. So still pretty, pretty new and learning to navigate all of that. But, um, yeah, so I would say as a two feeling very hopeless, I was probably the most difficult thing for sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks, Steph. what have you been doing to, just cope, make it, make it through? Like, what kind of support have you had? Can you just talk a little bit more about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yes. So, one thing I will say is like, we didn't have a huge, like, church community were involved in our church usually, but we were in a transitional period.

We're both kind of starting over in different areas of our lives. So, my husband and I, the biggest thing for us was having a huge family base of support here. We had one person, one precious person that showed up every week for a month with food. And others that would come by and say, Hey, have you been out to see the sunshine today?

Like, that's probably a good idea and would come and pick me up and say, let's go hike. Let's go for a wal, let's go get coffee. Tell me about your brother. Tell me some stories. So I think that's been really one of the most helpful things is the, you know, as a writer, like I believe in the healing power of stories and of telling your story.

So having people come in and ask like, Hey, what are some of your favorite stories about your brother? Like whether they know him or not. And that's been super helpful. That's been a really great way for me to cope. And I also write letters to him. So when I see something that reminds me of him, or if I have a really hard day, or even if our family experiences something new that I know he would have just loved, I will write it down like I'm talking to him and that's been really helpful as far as coping.

I also unfortunately have a couple of friends who lost siblings this year and so we have our own sort of weird sibling grief club and it's like the worst membership ever but I'm really thankful for them, thankful for their openness and empathy. There are also a lot of great grief communities on Instagram and Facebook that I have been a part of that have been really helpful in that journey.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks Steph for just being vulnerable about just going through loss. I know that's really hard. Sure. And I know it for twos, you know, for twos, nines and sevens, being a part of the positive outlook group, there's a propensity to try to stay positive, through, grief through loss, going through a conflict, try to look on the sunny side.

Have you felt that as a two and then how have you reconciled that with like healthy grieving?

.Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So, I don't know. I think everything just kind of got obliterated. Like, when I got that phone call, it was like, I don't even know who I am right now. I don't know how to feel. So, I don't know that I even really responded, like, in the typical way that a two would.

I guess I did it first, and my husband had to pull me aside and very gently say, like, Hey, I just need you to know, their grief is not your grief. You don't have to feel for everybody else. Like, everybody feels the grief differently. Your parents are going to feel it. And you're going to feel that too, because you don't like to see them hurt, but you have got to take space to feel it for yourself.

But I think for the most part, I, I was very numb and very, I kind of reacted in the opposite way, and really shut down a little bit more. And, then kind of reacted in extremes like later on, but initially right after it was more of a like silent introspective kind of thing.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. And I know for most twos are very active in helping others and they're moving, they're always drawing toward being drawn towards others.

But, and, and I know you, as a friend, you've been one of my editors. I've been really appreciative of you. And you've communicated to me that you've sort of scaled back your work. And so I just find that very healthy. So tell us a little bit about, how you set boundaries to create more space to, to grieve and go through the season, and not overdo it and not try to just work more.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah, sure. Sure. So, yeah, I could have had like, the desire to dive more into work. And I think there is a little bit of that temptation because you don't, when the feelings are so overwhelming, you just don't want to deal with them at all. And I only took two weeks off right after my brother died.

And I honestly think I should have taken a little bit more, but thankfully - again, because I have a wonderful husband, he was like, Hey, I've got us covered. You take the space that you need. If you only want to work five hours a week, fine, we will figure it out. So, I ended up reaching out to clients that I had, you know, current workloads with and just saying, Hey, I'm so sorry I understand if you need somebody else, I can't get this done in this amount of time. And thankfully I had really wonderful clients who were like, absolutely anything you need, we want to work with you. So we'll hang around and just do whatever on your schedule, but as far as just setting boundaries with that, I had to, I had to play around with it a little bit and figure out what I could actually handle.

And I ended up settling somewhere around like four or five hours a day. And I thought that, you know, by this time this year, maybe I would be taking on a little bit more. And I do have days where I do an eight hour day, but it's actually not. It's just not something I'm ready to dive back into. I've learned that I needed to take some space for myself to have gym time and time outdoors every single day.

That's just helpful in general, but especially when you're grieving, it gives me a little bit of uninterrupted time to think, and to really process what I've been feeling. So I'm very grateful for the ability to, like, take a step back and just know that it's, it's all going to be fine.

From Darkness to Light: Jordin's Journey of Healing and Resilience Through the Lens of an Enneagram 3

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you so much, Steph.

We're going to transition to Jordin and her story now, but I just want to let you know if there's anything you, you forgot or things you wanted to share, but, just didn't get a chance to so far we'll circle back and you can share at the end, but, uh, thank you for inviting us.

And to sit with you and your couch right there to hear your story. And I'm just proud of you for some of the steps you've taken to, as a two to set boundaries, um, and to take care of yourself in the midst of loss, I'm just really proud of you. Thank you. Let's, switch to Jordin.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes, thanks, Tyler. Hey, everybody. I am Jordin James. So yeah, mental health has been a real hole that I have had to crawl myself out of starting at the very beginning. My childhood, like many people's childhood was really weird. It was riddled with narcissistic abuse, emotional incest, and a lot of alcoholism.

I didn't know that it was weird until like actually looking back and being like, Oh, you didn't have to worry about inviting friends over because your dad was like, passed out on the couch. Like, oh, I guess that was a little bit weird. And so it's actually really, helps looking back to be like, oh, no wonder I was so sad.

Like, no wonder I was so depressed. No wonder I turned to self harming and suicidality early on when I felt like there was no, there was absolutely no support. Actually it's made my threeness, my Enneagram type threeness make a lot more sense because I remember having the thought back when I was, I don't know, a kindergartner of like, okay, when I go over to my dad's house this weekend, like, I'm not going to make him mad.

Like I am going to be so good. I'm going to do all the right things. I'm going to impress him. And so, so like that chameleoning that threes do was like a life or death kind of technique for me growing up from really early on. And I felt safest when I performed well. Like by far, like if I didn't perform well, my dad raised me to be like this big basketball star, which is another part of my three trauma of always needing to be impressive, but if I didn't play well, I felt like legitimately unsafe, but if I played well, I was safe.

And so like performance was, is not only like an ego thing for me. And I think for most threes, it's also like a fundamental, like safety of existing. And so, growing up, especially in high school, I put a lot of pressure on myself that turned into self harm and suicidality and depression. And, luckily, I don't know what it is.

It's just like this inherent resilience that I have that I just kept going and trying to heal. And, but what I realized is my own three tendencies trying to heal themselves. So like, I would try hard to figure out you know, what's wrong. I would try hard to get to the bottom of, of my pain. I would, you know, so I can root it out and figure it out.

I would try hard to like do all the right things to like be somebody that's healed now. And I was really just like trying to heal my trauma with my trauma and what, like eventually I realized that like my healing, like I don't actually heal myself. Like there is this force of love, there's a lot of different words that you can use for that love, there's a lot of different kinds of love, but there's this force of love that actually wants to do all the healing work for me.

I just have to let it, I just have to like feel my feelings and let love meet me in those feelings and like understanding why I'm feeling my feelings is not a substitute for actually feeling them. Which was really, really hard for my threeness, and it still is, to not just, like, try to do literally anything else other than feel my feelings.

And the other thing that I noticed as being a three and trying to heal my trauma was that threes have this tendency, I for sure do, have this tendency of, like, trying to heal everything in a vacuum. Like I'm going to go behind the curtain and I'm going to like, work really hard and improve myself really hard.

And then I'm going to like, go out and live my life. And then I'll go out and, and show up. And like, I had this, this fantasy that I can heal every, all, I could do all the vulnerable work in private, and then I could come out and like impress everybody. You know, I'll come out when I'm more impressive. And, and much to my dismay, I think it's a flaw in the universe, but.

Healing actually happens when I just interface with life exactly as I am. And like, I let people see me before I feel ready to be seen. And when I let love see me exactly as I am right now and all my mess. And eventually, like, when I, when I started doing that, when I started just going out there and failing, I learned that even in the deepest, like, most barfy pits of failure, that love is still there.

Love is still there. And so, like, failure doesn't actually equal this unsafe, complete abandonment of love. But I couldn't have understood that if I just kept trying to heal without actually, uh, living my life. So, I got really good at healing and I got really good at helping other people do the same thing.

Cause it's just like a, just a different orientation and then love does it all for you. So that's what I've been doing for the past five years now is helping other people, let more love in and let love do the open heart surgery for them.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Beautiful Jordin. I didn't want to cut you off, but I really resonated that as a fellow three. I wrote down, I don't heal myself. That is huge. And the three is listening. We need to hear that over and over again. We can't heal ourselves. That's been a constant theme throughout the summit as I continue to interview people is I don't have a lot of threes and that show up in my office, for whatever reason, threes do.

Think that we can heal ourselves and that we don't need somebody else, but we have to show up and I love, you said, like, meet with love, like have an encounter with love. That's beyond ourself from within ourselves. And I also wrote down, I'll come out, I'll come out of the hole when I'm like more impressive.

And like coming from like ministry world, there was a lot of unhealthy, like Superman Cape stories. Like people would share their story, but it would sound like, and it was very like three, like, like, you know, I was in the trenches of drug addiction and then I, you know, made this change and now I'm back on my feet and I'm a spiritual leader and I'm doing all these things.

And it's like, well, okay. Take the cape off. And just like, let's have some store. Let's research some stories on stage where people were, we're still in the thick of it where we haven't cleaned ourselves up. We haven't seen the results yet. We're just in it. That's really, really hard for us.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes. Yeah. I, I realized that healing actually happens when our vulnerability and love meet.

And like, in order for that to actually happen, that means I have to be vulnerable. It means I have to like, let people know that I'm also human and messy. And that's really hard as a three. That's like shaking in my boots kind of hard.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. Well, that's why this is so powerful to hear your story as a three, because you're, you're giving it like an unvarnished, no Instagram filter kind of version of your story.

And I just really appreciate that. I'm sure a lot of threes I really read are just, Benefiting from like me from hearing your story. So thank you so much, Jordin, and if you forgot anything, you can circle back and, and share here, at the end too.

Okay. Let's transition now to Boonie.

If you could unmute yourself and jump in and share a little bit of your story, we'd love to hear from you.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Oh, gosh, I've just so immersed in other people's vulnerabilities. Let me regroup a little bit.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I love that you're not just thinking in your head. Okay. What am I going to say next?

What am I going to say next? But you're immersed with this, our stories. That's I love that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Fun fact to share with other fours who are considered the special snowflakes. I did dye my hair the day before for this to stand out a little bit. Gotta, gotta be special. Gotta be unique.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I noticed it. It's great. Thank you for noticing.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, I, let's see. I guess the conditions or diagnoses I will talk about are codependent traits, working through personal depression of the four and autism. So I guess I will be perhaps a unique, a double unique flavor of four because of the neurodivergence, but I'm assuming a lot of us are not.

Have some sensitivity traits differences. Anyways, I'm guessing all of us do. It's all a spectrum. And so, let's see, how do I shape this? I know when you reached out, you were talking about this one video that I made. And so I think I'll lean into it that way, where If you look at that video, it was made I think six to eight years ago and my energy, my demeanor, my wholeness was so different from how I am now and I think that's what you were mentioning Jordin earlier about being present in your vulnerability.

I think as a four, we thrive off of being the vulnerable mess, and just being a muck. And that's the only attention that we could ever believe that we deserve. Being seen as and so I doubled down on that identity and presented information as a wounded, highly sensitive, vulnerable person where people would come and try and save me or protect me and feel like, oh, poor you, like, no, I get it.

It's like, I totally understand how you feel, at the same time, because of that, it limited who I was. for a long time. I was able to, here's the gift and the strength of a four, we're able to tap into this raw feeling of how other people are experiencing pain, grief, loss, questioning who they are. And that's for us an ability to tap into the essence, right?

An essence of a person. But because of that, We're stuck in this loop of, I can only feel seen when I am pained. I can only have value because people have shown me and given me attention when I am the sensitive snowflake. And so we're repeating and having this confirmation bias of like, I need to seek out relationships.

I have this antenna now. So the codependent traits is like, I'm seeking out relationships where someone, you know, Is may not be the best for me, but because I am so wounded and I think that I can only be seen as my vulnerable wounded parts, I'm going to seek someone who doesn't understand me. And that's the core wounding of a four, right?

We feel constantly misunderstood. So I'm going to do, I'm going to damage myself even more, find someone who doesn't get me, even though I know they don't get me. Unconsciously, I know they don't understand me. And so I've been in relationships. And, um, the universe has guided me out of that. But in the past, I've constantly been seeking out people and systems and social circles where I would look for that confirmation bias of I'm close to being understood, but they said this one thing, I feel suddenly rejected.

There was this one thing that I did and they misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I'm getting so defensive and overwhelmed. I'm getting emotionally hijacked. I don't think it's worth it. I'm going to now confirm my identity as the outlier, as the alien. I'm going to run away. I'm going to hide. I'm going to withdraw.

And so it's perpetual, this pattern. It's so exhausting. I'm so tired of it. And so like, we do that as a four. And then as my wing kicks in as a five, I will double withdraw and intellectualize of like affirming just the reasoning. So like Jordin said, we're writing the reasons for why. So like, I'm really good at explaining how and why happened, something happened, but to go into it is where the truly healing works.

Right. And so I think that's interesting because like, I'm sure Joanne will probably say something similar where with other types have a difficult time of even acknowledging the darkness and the pain, the depths of their vulnerability. We hold on to it too much where I actually find it a funny life lesson for me as a four to give myself permission to feel joy, like to feel successful and to actually stand out and embrace my light and have people witness me for what I'm actually good at.

Because I've been seen as Eeyore for most of my life. Like I'm just grumpy and I'm sad, but I know there's more of that, but I struggle sometimes where if I go out and have successful moments and then people give me attention for that, is that actually me too? And so there's this integration happening over time, right?

Where it's just like, I don't know if I actually like it. Is this good? This is good feelings, you know? And so I think that's an important part of us as fours where we will double withdraw because it's this shifting of your psyche of if it's so true. You start to lean into your self betrayal and abandonment of self when you realize, Oh shoot, I've done so much of the contribution to me living a life where I have been rejected, misunderstood, and seeking someone to see me.

It's like, Oh my God. And so that's a lot of pausing to withdraw on purpose. And so the intention comes out where instead of me reacting to the moment or the incident that happened where I run away because I have to confirm that I'm misunderstood and unwanted, I don't belong. This time I will withdraw on purpose to reflect on how am I contributing to what has happened?

And is there a possibility that I saw it a certain way? So I just was rereading. Riso, Wisdom of the Enneagram, before they had to prepare, and so there was this one part of like how we feel our feelings so much that we identify with the feelings instead of actually the experience itself. So I, I thought that was a good point.

So fours can really reflect on this, where if something emotional does happen, it's this, do the emotions exist forever? And realistically, maybe for a long time for us, yes. At the same time. Not consistently forever. And so I really want to meditate on that because it is true. There's some things that we don't believe to be true, but when we allow our emotions and cognition to separate.

It gives us an ability to really empower ourselves, and I think that's something that can be a strength, even though as a quiet, you know, moody person, I know I'm always going to be moody. Like, that's the thing that I think is realistic, too. Those are things that are going to, quote unquote, trigger me or make me feel like I don't belong.

But if I separate myself from the emotion and just pause a little bit, I can come back into the circle, the social group that I thought I was rejected from. And that's like the biggest thing, I think. I can share with fours, like, just go back, like, even though you feel like you were rejected and maybe you were feel strong enough to believe that there's something that they can offer you and you can offer them.

It's just like, you cannot constantly feel rejected from the whole world. That's impossible. You know, as a gamer, it's like numbers wise, it's probability. I know that sooner or later, I'll find someone that I can get along with. And so that's what I wanted to share.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I could, I could listen to you all day. This is I just really appreciate you sharing.

And, especially we talked about earlier, my son being on the spectrum. And so I'm just absorbing everything you're saying.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Do I sound like him? Like when he talks about stuff?

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, he's we think he's a type eight. So it's really interesting, seeing kind of the differences and we're gonna have a parenting panel on the summit here.

And we'll be talking about kind of our children and you know, what types we think they may be. You can't always type your kids too young for sure. But I just knowing the Enneagram now for a while, and my son's 10, we think he's an eight. So it's really interesting seeing, some of the, the autism traits and then also the type eight traits.

And how they mingle together. It's very, very interesting. So I'll be talking a little bit more about that on the parenting panel, but I forgot the video that you mentioned. And I just remembered it's the how to defend yourself video that I saw on YouTube. Explain why you, you did that video. Because I think it's, I think it's really important. You said you might not have been in the most healthy space or something like that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): No, I was not.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): But I, I saw it as a positive thing when I saw it. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to have Boonie say that. So what, what do you mean by how, like how you were advocating to others to defend themselves? Like, how have you felt like you needed to defend yourself?

Breaking Free: Embracing Self-Acceptance and Letting Go of Misunderstood Perceptions

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): And so identity is a really big thing for me because I want it reflected meaningfully through the relationships that we have. and the mirroring that I get in this world. It's incongruent in certain ways because if I say something or if I present a certain way and someone will look at me or say something, it's like, that's not congruent to how I see myself.

But if someone's joking about me with my autistic, like, traits or the things that I like, all of a sudden, wow, this world is completely different. And now it's kind of like a shattering of my perspective because Why is it so different? Why is mock me being mocked? Why is it made fun of so much? Or even the people in my life who were part of my life, the things that I did do and like, they were embarrassed to be around me because it was so abnormal.

And so there are these things where I was just trying to explain for me as a five wing cognition is very important to me. I try to explain my thought process so people can pick that up and be like, okay, you have a reason for liking the things that you like. Okay. Just because I don't understand that doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's just now I understand the thought process. That makes more sense. All I ever wanted to explain was the logic behind something. But because people considered it, instead of me explaining who I am, they consider it defensive. It's like now I'm being perceived as defensive instead of trying to stand firm in who I am and explain where I'm coming from.

And that would be such an incredible wounding that it would make me withdraw so often. And it's like this constant in and out process of again, the Tiredness of trying to take up space when you were afraid that someone's going to misinterpret what you say or do. And so, um, I reached this limit of I'm sure many people here have reached a limit.

I'm so sick of shit. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so like, what am I doing wrong or what's happening here? And so you're like, okay, what's the big thing? Being defensive, people feeling a certain type of way about your worldview and your sensory systems, and just needing to withdraw, but they're interpreting as you being egotistical, better than them, using certain language to represent yourself, and now, again, the mismatch of perception and identity, it's like, I'm so tired of this, and so the limit is like, who is allowed to receive the descriptions of who you are. Who deserves to understand the inner workings of your mind and your heart? Not everybody does. And I finally had the big light bulb go off, like, this is not working. They don't deserve this. They're never going to get it. And that's where Enneagram work, personality work comes in too.

Are they actually going to get it? Yes or no. And so the separation becomes very clear of like, oh, I don't have to explain. They're not going to get it. Like I'm free. I'm so free. And so I can go somewhere else where I can refill my cup. Like they get it. These spaces where I feel free to have joy and just be seen as who I am, like all these people, I'm sure we're going to come to the same conclusion just as we are, right?

And so there's again more space to not react of, they don't need to understand. Why am I chasing them? Why do I keep on chasing the wrong people trying to explain who I am when they don't get it, you know? And so that's part of it. And I know a lot of neurodivergent people, we will get stuck in that trap because our, we don't even understand our brains.

Most of us don't. We follow the TikToks, we follow the memes, but a lot of us don't really get the mechanisms happening. So there's like the body part component too, which I'm just going to recommend. Please go seek out occupational therapists. They will help too. Just, okay. I think I'm done. I'm done.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That was so helpful and so important, um, to teach others advocate to defend themselves and for us to pick up that torch, say, Hey, we want to defend you.

Me and my wife are constantly defending our son against neighbors. And people who don't understand him mis, misinterpret his actions. And cause you shouldn't have to do that for yourself. We talk a lot about this when it, when it comes to, people of color in, in majority white spaces. It's like they get super tired of having to constantly defend themselves.

Advocate for the issues when we can step up and we can defend and we can advocate and we can be an ally. I think the same thing is true with like autism, as well, especially, I've noticed like in movies, TV shows, there's certain traits that show up when there's like an a character who has autism.

And if they, if you don't have those kinds of common traits and people might not pick up on it. And those misinterpret all your actions, you know, like Zeke is an eight is very loud. He's full of life and he's just all over the place. So, you know, when he comes in the room as an eight, but in people, but then he still has those social interaction.

They think cues that he misses all the time. And so he, he doesn't pick, he thinks that people are constantly betraying him that are, they're constantly looking at him funny. And then that just agitates him. And then it causes, you know, an unhealthy social interaction. And then other people would draw from him.

He's constantly losing friends. So we're constantly trying to help people understand him, advocate for him, defend him. And so we just need to all do a better job of doing that for our friends and family members. So, thanks Boonie. I really, really loved hearing from you. It was moving on. I think Amanda, we need to go to you as a three, go, go back to three here.

I, missed you there on the, on the list. So can we, can you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Sure. Um, trying to think of like the way to sum up my experience. Cause I feel like Most of my teenage and adulthood life has been struggling with mental health issues. My childhood, I was pretty easy go, performer, entertainer, loved everybody.

And it wasn't until my adult years when like a bomb went off. Um, and I definitely think in hindsight that my issues with depression, Suicide ideation, anxiety, um, eating disorder, food addiction, body dysmorphia, um, and later diagnosed ADHD had a lot to do with being a one on one, uh, three. So image being.

Beautiful having the body type or the dress or any of those things that society valued was so what I was obsessed with that, um, and not being able to ever measure up. Uh, it just imploded on me. Um, I couldn't get skinny enough. I couldn't be pretty enough. I couldn't, uh, wear the right clothes. I couldn't have that, like walk into a room and everybody look at me kind of like fantasy that I wanted to get some kind of value, um, Imploded at that time, and it just kind of kept going into my 20s and 30s.

It wasn't until my later 30s and into my early 40s that I finally started getting some insights and ahas and making connections. And just like Jordin was mentioning, I was going to figure it out myself. It was like. I, we taught my talking to my dad, who's also a three. And I was like, I think it was in my twenties where I was like, okay, I'm really tired of this and I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to fix myself.

And I'm going to have that moment, just like Jordin talked about that moment of being like, here I am. I'm healed. I'm confident. I have value come admire me. And of course that never happened and it won't happen the way I imagine it. Anyways. So that comparing to other people, the competing, I had no interest in being valedictorian or being president of a club or the best athlete, but I definitely wanted to be a attractive, magnetic, charismatic girl. Um, and I moved around a lot. And so it was the, the standard, the expectation was always changing. So it depended on where I lived, what community we were a part of. Um, and then when you're in a religious community and a secular community, then there's like, okay, how am I supposed to present myself?

In this one and then in this one and then when you get into the work world as an adult, you have religious community and personal community and work community. And it just, I didn't realize that that was, I was doing was this constant, like, trying to measure up to all these different environments I was in.

I think my success in getting through a lot of that was my ADHD masking. I think it helped me keep pushing through instead of just imploding on myself. The shame was obviously present. I didn't like it. And it was like, I'm going to figure this out. Where's this coming from? So constant exploration.

And interestingly enough, when I got into teaching and I was teaching life skills and then school counseling, and so I was counseling other high school students, kind of similar issues, you know, I was seeing things in other people, um, and it was like that. I'm going to, I'm going to. Help fix you. And maybe I can fix myself in that process.

But the ADHD thing was a total, like did not see that coming. I was just recently diagnosed at 42. That was definitely a huge gut punch. It was a, I don't know who I am. I really don't know who I am. And so it's a lot of grieving, a lot of grieving, a lot of anger. Interestingly enough, I found that most of the grief came from feeling like I missed out on years where I could have accomplished something.

Like had I known I had ADHD and I couldn't have medication and therapy and help in my twenties, my teens and twenties, I could have done so much more with my life. Like that was what I was struggling with and also the frustration of wanting to accomplish more, but the anxiety or the ADHD or, the depression like held me back from a lot of the things that I wanted to do.

Like I wanted to go do this. I wanted to, you know, be in this position or be in the spotlight for this, but it kind of was always that voice that was like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but, um, so there's a lot of frustration there. That push to want to perform and get value that way, but also retreating because the shame and the image and what if I can't.

And so it was this, this crazy cycle that I went through and I'm still going through working on finding value and just being me. Like, I don't have to be pretty, I don't have to be put together, I don't have to have the latest fashion, I don't have to be the best daughter, the best wife, the best friend, if I just existed.

I have worth and value and that still is really hard for me to wrap my head around. So that's where I kind of try to show up and be the best performer at is just being the favorite friend, the favorite, you know, I always tell my husband, I want to be the trophy wife for you. That would be the best thing.

I struggled with emotional eating and binge eating. And so I got quite heavy and that was very hard for me as an image conscious person, because I didn't even feel like I had worth being out in public, like as an ugly obese person, you should not have to look at me. I'm just taking up space. And so that was another like mental thing to work through.

And so I eventually was getting healthy, working out. Of course I took that too far as a three. You know, I was feeling good and accomplishing and I would get my kicks out of telling people that I got up at two 30 every morning and worked out for an hour and a half for five years until my body was like, you're done.

So yeah, so it was just in hindsight, I can just see it. Plainly out there that it was mostly that intimate one on one kind of needing to have that value in my world, whether it was my peers or my parents or friends or all those kinds of things that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Amanda. I love that you echoed Jordin's comments about I'm going to fix myself because as a three, we just need to keep hearing that, like we, we need should fix ourselves because it is rather embarrassing, to say that we are not six, not having success. We're seeing a successful, and I appreciated you, talking about your subtype that you're a sexual or one to one, three.

That's big. And that really does provide some really, uh, insight into mental health or mental health struggles, because I know the sexual three, more so than the achievements, like you said, the social threes are really into the, the success, symbols, status statuses. But for sexual three, you're really gonna want to craft desirable qualities or craft a desirable image to make others.

Once you more to desire you more. And so I can totally see how that would lend itself to really thinking a lot about body image, exercising, like doing all that you can to sort of craft the perfect image for your loved ones or the people that you really want to attract, did you feel like, and I know Beatrice chestnut teaches that a lot of times sexual threes for women, they want it to be the most like feminine, they want to fit into that feminine box that called the culture, the majority culture wants.

And then for men to fit into that masculine, boxes, did you feel a little bit of that?

Chasing an Ideal: Navigating Body Image and Identity in the Shadow of a Gentle Mother

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I had an interesting relationship with that. Um, my mother, I'm an only child. We moved a lot, weren't around family. So it was, my dad was a workaholic self pros three. So it was me and my mom. And so her energy, she's a nine.

And her body type, she's very tall and thin was my goal post for a lot of my life. And I am, I got curvy real quick. So yay, middle school years and blossoming. And so I thought I had to have that body type. I was also in the nineties heroin shake, you know? So Kate Moss and looking like you were on your deathbed was the ideal and definitely could not do that.

And then personality wise, my mom's just. friendly and laid back and kind. And I always had friends that are like, your mom is so sweet. We just love your mom. And here I am like opinionated loud, like go, go, go. I'm a fire, you know, like a lot of young kind of masculine energy. I'm also a thinker and a lot of the Myers Briggs.

So there was this. I have to be kind and meek and gentle and sweet and serve, um, and be soft spoken and not have opinions. And I also grew up in the Bible belt. So, you know, you have a lot of cultural expectations. And so there was this, like, I have to soften myself. I have to keep my mouth shut. I have to be more like her.

Everybody likes her. Nobody wants an opinionated, strong female, you know, especially during my growing up years. So I did, I did struggle with that. I had a love hate relationship because I am a girly girl. I love me some makeup and some clothes and all the things, but I also felt that like, edginess to me.

And so I did, I had a hard time kind of resonating with that. And I, I think I still do, especially my husband's a five. And so he's a little more still and quiet and reflective and, you know, I'm completely opposite of that. And so you've got those role reversals in a relationship. Cause I do the finances and, you know, and he doesn't.

And so, It is still kind of present. Getting more comfortable with it obviously is the more I learn about myself, the more I go through therapy, EMDR, brain-spotting, all that stuff has been amazing for me to work through that stuff and then having that space with a therapist where I can just let it all hang out and like, I don't have to worry about other people watching me or hearing me.

Of course, you have to get to that point as a three with a therapist to be vulnerable in front of your therapist, learn to trust your therapist, but having that space for me to just kind of be brutally honest and let it all hang out has been really helpful too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): One more question, Amanda, you talked about ADHD masking.

That's something that came up in one of my interviews on ADHD here at this, on the summit. And so I was like, when I heard about it, I was like, that sounds a lot like threes. This whole ADHD masking thing. So, and you said you used it to cope. It was helpful for you. So as a three who, you know, we tend to wear masks, what is ADHD masking and how is it, how did it help you?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Um, well, one, I think that's why I wasn't diagnosed until much later, because I learned how to adapt my behavior to the expectations. Um, so Matt, ADHD masking is. Um, much like the mirroring that threes do, you know, we're watching people watch us and learning what is acceptable, what is an acceptable. And so ADH doers dears do that as well.

Um, we see that, oh, this behavior is not. You know, we're getting some negative feedback from this. And so you learn to internalize, come up with, um, accommodations, ways to not get that negative feedback. For example, obviously the societal expectation is to show up on time for things, right? And a lot of ADHD people have time management, time, blindness issues and contend to be late for things so you, you overcompensate sometimes. So for example, I have no concept of how long it's going to take me to get somewhere. And that's where a lot of my anxiety stemmed from was, was coming from those things. So I will leave way earlier than I have to, to make sure that I get somewhere on time. So I will get to places. 45, 30 minutes early before I have to. And I'm okay with that because it lessens the anxiety of potentially being late. And so I'll sit in my car and like do whatever I need to do. ADHD, people also have to work on transitioning from one thing to the next. So it is helpful to sit in the car and kind of mentally prepare.

Okay, I'm going from this. I'm going into there. This is what I need to do. So it does help me, but, uh, you learn what is an acceptable. And so that's why I say being a three. And having ADHD that mirror and masking, I think was my, my life force and surviving, uh, thinking about the things that I struggled with.

I don't, I'm surprised that I wasn't hospitalized or really got into serious addictions, different things like that. But I think that was part of it is I just got in that. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it on top of being concerned about the image. What would people think if they knew?

And so that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, the whole goal of the summit is to help us to have more self compassion for ourselves and more empathy for others. And, you know, you have the normal. Three or normal type stuff that we struggle with everyone does, and then you, the ADHD or other mental health struggles sort of layers on top of that.

So I, as you, when you say that you struggle with knowing how long it's going to take to get somewhere, I'm like, Oh my goodness, as a three, we like efficiency, really getting places. On time and quickly. I can't imagine then having that struggle on top of that, of not knowing, like, like having that value of efficiency and being good efficiency, but then not being able to control that.

That sounds really challenging, really hard. So that's a good, I mean, thank you for sharing that example. That's, that's helpful for the reason the rest of us listening in, but thank you again for, for sharing that you're 42. I'm 42 and I'm going through a crisis as well. My identity as a three, like, what did I do the last two decades for other people?

And what did I do for myself? I don't know. It's our midlife crisis. And I really appreciate you saying, Hey, I wish I would have got sought a diagnosis earlier. Cause I could have been so much more helpful. And that's one of the things that keeps coming up too, is let's, let's seek out those things.

Not be afraid to get help early on because it could change the next decade or two of our lives. Uh, so thank you for sharing that wisdom.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I say advocate, advocate for yourself, advocate for other people. And now that's kind of my big passion is educating how ADHD shows up for women, especially because we're the population where it's not diagnosed or it's misdiagnosed.

So now that's like I'm on fire for that because. I still, I have a couple of friends that are like I think I might have that. I'm like, well, what have you done about it? Well, you know, my doctor says that I don't have it. I'm like, no, no, no. If, if you feel like that's something you need to explore, like go find another doctor and then go find another doctor.

We have to advocate. So I think that's that three, like encouraging and cheerleading and fighting for people I find coming in now and trying to empower other people for whatever diagnosis they might think that they have or mental health issue that they might think they have. It's like, don't just sit in it, you know, go find help some form or fashion, educate yourself if that's just researching, you know,

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good, Amanda.

Well, I interviewed Kristen Carter, who is the host of I have ADHD podcast. So go, go check out that if you're listening and you want more. And I also interviewed Nate McCord on how ADHD shows up in every type. So that would be another resource for you. Okay. Thanks, Amanda. We have two left, so we're going to go to Joanne next and then Eden.

So Joanne, would you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, I came into this panel. I was like, what should I talk about? And while I was listening to people sharing, I was like, Oh, I was like having like an epiphany just right now. It's like, Oh, I realized that whenever someone asked me about me, I I have like go to tracks of how I can describe myself in my life.

I can like talk about myself as, someone who's moved around a lot, had a hard time making friends. That's track number one. Track number two is growing up as a queer kid in the church. And then like having that whole thing blow up. And then a third track being like spiritual abuse, spiritual trauma, all kinds of stuff.

And so it was very interesting. Just like sitting here, it's like, very Four-ish thing to do. It's like, I can talk about myself according to these like pre rehearsed. Ways. And I think that a lot of my struggles probably came from like this. It's a, I think it's a pretty common four thing, determining the conclusion up front and then working backwards.

Like the conclusion is obviously there must be something wrong with me and that I'm fatally flawed and that nothing can never like help me. And I probably have gone through my whole life and have interpreted different experiences I've had as evidence, but there must be something wrong with me. So it's kind of like a circular argument and you know, even in the ways that I show up in life nowadays might be according to that rehearsal. And I, I just thought that was pretty, pretty weird. Oh, I haven't actually talked about this track in a while.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So that's extremely valuable just to let us in your head already. Thank you.

For allowing us to see that that's, yeah, I'm very intrigued. I want you to talk about all of that for a couple of hours.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I could, don't tempt me, but I think the main thing that I've learned recently is that I am important, but I'm not central. That I come with the experience of being a self preservation four.

So I'm a four that doesn't look like a four. Everyone else on the outside might interpret me or assume that I am basically every other type. It really depends on my mood. And the people who are the closest to me would be able to tell that I'm a four. And that's like, if I even reveal all the crap that's like going on behind the scenes.

And so there's a lot of masking, jury's still out whether or not I actually have ADHD, definitely have had anxiety and depression, PTSD, the full range. But nowadays there, there are two things that are happening for me in present day. One is it might be a possibility that I've identified with Being someone who has anxiety, depression, PTSD.

Then actually having anxiety, depression, PTSD. Like, I'm not going to discount that. There were several moments in my life where yeah, anxiety is like just running the show or that I've been kind of like stuck in the mud. But I think if that's like, that might be maybe like. 40, 50 percent of what was going on for me.

And I think the remaining 50 percent was what my four was doing. It's like, I've demonstrated that there must be some, there is something wrong with me and I'm just going to like squeeze every single juice that I can't add with this identity. What helped me was when I discovered the Enneagram, I thought I was a social four for the longest time because I like resonated with all the four stuff and it wasn't until my Enneagram coach sat down with me for about a year and she was like, I think you should revisit because what I actually ended up doing was to disconnect with my own suffering and outsource it.

So I thought that I was struggling a lot, but from outside observation, no one can tell that I was struggling. I grew up with major RBF, so everyone could kind of tell that there was something going on, but I would never show it. All the meanwhile, behind the scenes, I know how I'm feeling. So it was like super broody and dark and stormy and all that kind of stuff.

But what actually ended up happening was that I was very functional. So my parents had no idea that I was struggling in my childhood because I happened to be very good at school, but it wasn't that I was actually good at school. I mean, I might have had some skillsets, but nobody knew just how much, how many more hours I put towards finishing a project.

Like I would work till like three, 4 AM. And so I think in a lot of ways, like I resonate with some of the things that Amanda shared, like, I think that was a lot of the masking that I grew up operating, like the good easy child suffering silently alone was like probably the way that I survived throughout life.

To the point where now I, inadulted, I painted myself into that corner. And later on, like six, seven years ago, I met my bestie. Who is also an Enneagram therapist. She's a sexual too. And she was so gentle in the beginning, but now she kind of let me in on her initial impression of me that when we met and she said, yeah, you were just like, like a broken record.

You kept telling the same stories over and over and over and over again. And I think I had learned more about the four to realize that, Like that was probably how I was coping. But the, the issue was. I was already in a safer place. I didn't need to cope anymore. I had already left the, the church that blew up that I was working.

And I, I was the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, whatever back then. And that was just like the identity that I had taken on since I left was, I was a person who founded a huge church family secret and I got cut off from my community and no one understands what the hell is going on. And I have all this power to single handedly destroy this church, but what do I do with all this power?

That was the narrative. I kept telling myself for like the first five years since I left that church, maybe seven years. And I think the more I learned about specifically the self press for type set up, it's like, okay, if I've identified with. Suffering itself, then there will be no healing. The healing will not happen because I've already eliminated as an option available to me.

And so I learned that I have an allergic reaction to joy. I remember to what Boonie shared and that joy for fours is a very threatening experience. It doesn't make any sense, I think, to other types, but I think for fours, it's living life as if the umbilical cord that tethers us to life in the universe has been severed and all of our lives is us trying to reconnect that tether by making ourselves to be very different or unique, or trying to prove ourselves and to earn our worth, or by being the most suffering person on the face of the planet, whatever it is.

And so if all of those things are a part of the type four setup and we have our type of what, but we are not our type. Namely we are more than our type. Then I have to go back to the drawing board and rethink everything. All of my premises, I need to reevaluate because otherwise I'm just recycling the same limited conclusion over and over again.

So nowadays it's more of, okay, maybe I am important, but I'm not central. I'm not the center of the universe. So maybe the world will not fall apart. If I take a break, maybe. I can actually take up more space without other people feeling burdened. Maybe it's okay for me to enjoy things. And even if I open myself up to risk of losing that good thing or whatever, maybe I'm already more than capable of handling that now.

Then I did before. So a lot of it nowadays is more of like, let me just be a single drop of water in the greater life ocean and see where things go instead of me trying to make myself or life be a certain way. So there's a lot of self preservation instinct stuff that I've been trying to work on.

A lot of my anxiety was probably from that instinct going on hyperdrive. It's like planning and predicting and practicing and all those things. And to be upset basically for the rest of the day or the rest of the week, because one thing fell out of alignment instead of just being like, it is what it is, you know, maybe things are beyond what I can perceive and imagine.

And maybe that's fine in the same way that I don't know exactly how hot it's going to be tomorrow. And maybe I don't need to know, maybe I just need to know in real time in the present and I'll entrust my wellbeing to life to take care of me as I need and also to myself to make good decisions as each situation comes up.

So I don't have to. You know, relish in the past, thinking those were the good old days. I don't have to future trip. I could just be here wherever I am. And I don't know whether or not I have ADHD. The question that my husband asked me was, what would you do next, even if you found out? I'm like, I don't know, because life is pretty good right now. I'm self employed on my own boss. Like I get to decide my life to be however I want it to be. Eventually I might find out I might not, but there's some part of me that wants to kind of keep the type four at bay that if I were to find out, let's say if I do or don't have ADHD, that I would go back from birth and be like, this is why I have been, this is how I've become who I am now.

That's a story that I think is too small. For where I am now. And so I'm kind of just rolling on by day to day. And, I think trauma, for me is kind of a more open ended thing. Like oftentimes people think of trauma as like a big, scary event, like a car crash or like rape or whatever. And those things obviously are traumatic.

But if it's the case that in each of our types that we can create our own traumatic microcosm. Then how about we give ourselves the very opposite of going beyond our comfort zone and for four, it will be learning how to recognize that maybe some goodness is readily available to me right here and right now.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Joanne. Thanks for sharing all that you did. I was. Kinda taking some notes down and I know, thank you for pointing out that you're self preservation. Four. I know self pres four can be sunny on the outside, suffering on the inside. And so tell me, is it a little bit like threes, you know how we talked about as threes, we don't like to go and get help?

Is it true? I know that self preservation four sometimes can suffer, suffer, suffer almost in like a masochistic way. Like they can endure lots of suffering. Yep. And does, do you think other self press fours will. We'll hold on to that. And, and cause I know that I've heard that they can almost feel more special because there's, there's something in such a unique way, but that keeps up press for us from getting help by kind of holding onto that or for you, like, what were you tempted to kind of just continue to suffer in a masochistic way or, you know, what propelled you to then move towards getting help and support?

Breaking the Cycle: Overcoming Counterdependency and the Pressure to Overfunction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So there's dependency, there's counter, there's codependency, there's counter dependency. Counter dependency is like having an allergic reaction to relying on other people. It's just that in the United States, especially, we have a whole holiday to celebrate independence. And so, like, a lot of that, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so hard for me to break outside of that and still is like, I don't know what's masochistic if I'm just used to that.

That's my baseline. You know, like it wasn't until other people were like, you did what? Like you did how much work and getting that outside frame of reference that I reprocess like, Oh, what I reflexively do is more than what is actually required. What happens if I don't do what if I don't put in that much effort and then the anxiety that comes up usually is a sign for me now that it's my self press for over functioning.

A lot of it, I think that kind of, goes hand in hand with masking. I think self press 4 is like, no one can tell how we're dealing. And sometimes we ourselves can't tell. Because we are our own frame of reference. That's the self referencing bit of type 4. And so, asking for help felt terrible. I missed a step on the stairs several years back and I technically broke my foot.

And I was with my friend, I happened to catch her shoulder. So she kind of broke most of my fall, but I still ended up injured. And I was laying on the floor. And the first thing that came to mind was I asked her, is this the day where I'm supposed to cancel my clients? She's just like, was completely in shock.

She's like, what are you talking about? Of course this is. And I had to like get into a boot and everything. And it just sucked. being injured. But the hardest part of that experience was knowing that I had to ask for people to give me rights. Like the physical pain was easy.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, thank you for sharing more of that.

That's really insightful for us to hear about what's going on within a four, especially self press for, and thanks for sharing about your church experiences. Even though they, they weren't, you were sharing some things that weren't positive. And I just, I know that there's people who have used, uused to be in spiritual communities that aren't, and then there's people that a lot of people are watching that are in spiritual communities are going to Christian churches.

And I just want to point out that, you know, even if you have rose colored glasses and think that your spiritual leader or your spiritual community is like, so great, uh, that not all churches get mental health and that's why we're dedicating a whole session to that. When I was starting out as a spiritual leader, I was a horrible, I keep saying this, I was not a good, I did not get mental health.

And as a three, that was still needed to grow up, I kept, I had a lot of work to do in understanding mental health. And so I think it just helps for anybody to go to a counselor, to seek support and get a third party, sort of audit of your spiritual experience and tell your spiritual experience to somebody else.

And for them to be like, you know, that doesn't sound really healthy. Well, let me, let me walk you through this. Cause then, cause sometimes we get googly eyes and we, we just think our, our churches, you know, has the right teaching or has the best leaders or even, even in those situations, there might be some things that are not good.

Going well, and you need to help walking through those things. I grew up Catholic and I was telling my wife about something in terms of like, a relationship to like the, the town, the priest of our town, and she was like, that's not like, what, that, that is not healthy. And, and so like nothing bad happened, but it was just, you know, It was just an experience of like, if we need to be sharing our experiences with our spiritual leaders and community and have somebody else do a little audit of that, because there might be places that, where we need to heal.

And sometimes we can't see that. And obviously our spiritual community is biased, so they might not be able to help us see that. But an outsider might be able to help see that. And you guys are all, a lot of you guys are coaches, counselors, therapists. So you know what I'm talking about, but I'm just stating the obvious for, for those who are watching.

But also I'm going to be interviewing, Audrey Assad on here. And she's going to be talking about, telling her story of spiritual OCD. So that might be an interview that you guys might want to pay attention to or watch. So, but thank you, Joanne for, for sharing your story.

I'm going tof ollow up with you. I need to hear a little bit more of your story. So I'll follow up with you after the panel. Okay. We have Eden. Eden's back from the thunderstorm that her internet got cut off, but she is back. So Eden, can you unmute yourself and share your story?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. Apologies for having to being forced off, should I say?

Right. Yeah, and, and I missed the other two. I'm so sorry, Stephanie, I missed your, your story. But yeah, I'm Eden, and I am an enneagram type two. And I'll be talking a little bit about my history with anxiety and depression through kind of my life. Now as a practicing therapist and attachment coach, I always start with the beginning, right?

Like those early attachment, those early childhood years. When I entered the world, my mom and dad and sister, older sister, had just moved to a new city. And, um, my dad was traveling Monday through Friday. There was no family or support there. My sister has down syndrome. She was maybe a year out of having open heart surgery and here I came, right?

So needless to say, I had entered into a family system that really had some pretty intense Needs and very little room for a new set of needs, right? And that obviously reinforces reinforced in me that primary type to trait of attending to other people's needs and neglecting my own So that was just it's kind of like the perfect melting pot for that Trait to really form and flourish and in me. So as a sibling, I think it's It's worth like stopping there a little bit as a sibling of someone with special needs.

Not only did it feel like there was no room for my needs out of just the circumstances, right? No one's fault, but there was also so much shame feeling a need, right? Because I have so much more than she does. How, how could I even think about? Picking up space here. So that I think added another layer to. Not being in touch with my needs.

I had to kind of work my way through the shame around that. So overall, I kind of grew to be pretty good. I became the like token friend that was the counselor, right? I can really read and anticipate people's needs and it felt a little like maybe three ish at times like I can I'm gonna kind of morph a little bit here based on what I'm seeing and I felt like a superpower really.

The shadow sid of that superpower, there was kind of an undercurrent of conditional self worth manipulation of others. So I could feel valued. That's really kind of just come around into my consciousness. Wow. Like I'm doing these things because I think that this person is going to bring me value and I'm going to create a need for myself in their life so that I can feel validated and affirmed.

That's been a fun one to kind of discover more and more. And really ask myself, okay, what do I want in this relationship with this person? Like, do I want to be friends? Do I want to be acquaintances versus I need them to need me? That's, that's kind of been really helpful. But yeah, shadow side, and then also having a really loaded self critic that can come in, when those personal needs or opinions.

Or that like stress eight, you know, kicks in, a lot of shame around that. And my, my depression, I was thinking about my childhood and I was like, I think I was good. I think I was good. And then like my twenties hit and I had left my family system. And was kind of dropped into the world, right? And it was terrifying.

Because I was then responsible for the choices that I was making. And I didn't know what choices to make because I didn't know myself. I didn't know what I wanted, didn't know who I was, what I needed. I felt like that moment from, the notebook, except without Ryan Gosling, where he's like, stop thinking about what other people want.

What do you want? Right. What do you want? Um, which is a terrifying question. So like a 20 something, but also really could and did inspire some creativity and imagination and curiosity about myself. My part of my anecdote to my own depression, obviously therapy, my own therapy, some medication, um, but really was songwriting and performing, that process.

It was something I'd been doing since a kid, but I had kept those songs totally to myself. I'd never shared, never performed nothing. So when I started writing in my depression, I just was like, well, maybe I go to a coffee shop and play an open mic or, and it, and it just started flowing. Right. and that, there's so much, there was so much power to the experience of I am standing behind an amplified microphone, right.

And there are people looking at me, hearing my words and hearing my voice and they want to listen. And so that really started building up that connection to myself, my voice, my thoughts, my feelings, um, as well as that self worth. And then, you know, I think another phase was becoming a new mom.

I think anxiety, like, just came in and snuggled up next to me in that phase of life. And part of it was just like my idea of myself being shook, right? I had this concept of myself as this eternally patient. And the token caretaker for like the whole world, right? And I was known as a very patient person and then to experience myself as like so depleted, as very limited.

Um, as resenting my kids and my partner at times, and like what felt worse than any of that, like these moments where I would lash out at my kids, right? It was just completely unacceptable, not in my framework, and there was a lot of wrestling with, you know, okay, who, who am I in this new role with these new demands?

What do I need? How do I communicate that to my partner? And how do I communicate that with my kids? So there's been a lot of, a lot of self care that I've stepped into, which, you know, that, that is like a buzzword and I don't love to use it, but it really has been moments of stillness. Oftentimes when I'm alone for whatever reason, for me being able to get to my core self requires me feeling very embodied, um, and not in my head, not paying attention to the people around me.

I do hot yoga and the room is dark. I love it. No one gets to see, no one sees your sweat, right? Like. Yeah. You feel it, but you don't see it. So hot yoga shavasana is that moment of reflection at the end of yoga class where you're laying there and just really noticing what's coming up in my consciousness, that is a way that I hear myself speak, imagery or in words or in thoughts or songs and really paying attention to that.

So finding a rhythm and working that out with my partner and my life, right? My lifestyle, working that out, finding that rhythm where I stay connected to myself in the midst of all the things that I'm doing in the midst of all the needs. We have a dog, we have chickens, we have a turtle, we have kids, right?

Like, I love being in that role. And I think that's one thing that's we're saying, like, I imagine there's parts of ourselves that we love. Right? Like, in the types that we are, I love being that nurturer and that caretaker, and I love being able to offer a patient, obviously a therapist, right? I love being able to offer that space for people, um, but it's also, it has to be in balance, otherwise I stop being as good as I can be for, for myself and for others.

So that's, that's my 2 cents here.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): if you go to a type two therapist like Amanda, or it's like Eden, you may get a reference to Ryan Gosling, to help, you know, your mental health. So just to let you know,

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. To be, to be fair, I have not, I haven't seen that movie probably since it came out.

But it was very profound when I heard those words coming out of his mouth. And you pointed out that relational anxiety might manifest as a two by creating needs that you can meet for people. A lot of the mental health anxieties come for twos is relational anxiety. And so I like how you put that.

Pointed that out. And didn't you say that you felt like you couldn't talk about your needs because you had siblings or sibling that had more needs, right? I think that was really helpful to hear because you might, especially as a two, you might minimize your own needs, especially if you can see other people who are struggling and be like, well, who am I to bring this up?

I'm just going to be more of a burden. And that's kind of a thing that a lot of you guys shared in the panel is kind of the tendency to minimize your, your struggle as it's not being a big deal. Uh, when it actually is, and you're deserving of support and help and, uh, for people loving people to come around you.

And then I liked that you pointed out that songwriting has been a really helpful, like therapy tool. I hear that over and over for twos, like I had no two who does photography and those creative outlets. When you're just going out and doing something for yourself, that's fun and enjoyable is self care.

And, I always tell twos, especially, um, in, in churches where you're, it's continually preached to be self, be selfless, be selfless, be selfless. Well, twos aren't already selfless. They need to be more selfish in the best sense of the word, uh, something that feels selfish is actually self care.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. And I didn't, I didn't mention that as well, but I could have gone on a whole church, path, right.

But I think that was one of my major early on. I grew up in the church. That was one of my major struggles with the church because that was not a message that I needed reinforced, for myself, I needed to be valued for myself and I needed my strengths and my gifts and my talents to be mine.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yes, that's what the Engram was so helpful to me because then I can, I'm telling nines now, take up more space, take up more space, but that's not usually a message that's, that's preached. Well, thank you, Eden. I'm going to start with you and then work back to the others on the, on the panel in closing, tell us where we can find you online, any point us to any resources that you want us To know about any work that you're doing. I'll ask that question of everybody. And then if there's a burning thought that you had, that you didn't get to share, now's your time to get it in. So go ahead and work. We find you online, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have a group private practice. I come on with my husband. He's also a therapist and an Enneagram Nine. It's called Inside Out Collaborative and that's insideoutcollaborative. com. And then,for coaching stuff that's edenheider. com. I have a podcast that focuses on attachments.

There's just a season out there. It's just a little, little flip, but that's called inside out podcast as well. And my Instagram is @edenheider. I'm not on as much. That's part of self care that's happened over the past couple of years as I'm not as much on social media. I'm more in my body, which is positive.

But yes, I love hearing from people. Um, And yeah, there are lots of good resources on those pages too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. Um, and I'll post the links that you shared with me. I'll post them below so that people can, can find you that way. Perfect. Uh, let's go back to Stephanie.

Stephanie, where can we find you?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Hey, um, so I'm on Instagram. Uh, like Eden said, I'm not on there a ton. Um, but it is storycraftstuff. editor. And I have a website where you can find me for editing services. And sometimes I do blog about grief on there too. Um, but that is storycraftncom.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome stuff. Uh, Jordan.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): I am on almost all the socials. Um, it's at just Jordinjames. Um, so you can find me on there as a three. I have a lot to express and I am on social media a lot. Maybe, uh, I'm taking some self care notes. Um, so yeah, you can find me on social media. I, um, a lot of my narcissistic abuse stuff. If that's something that anybody listening is interested in.

is on my, in my writing and I write a lot on medium. com. So I think that there's a, there's going to be a link for that as well. And then my, my favorite thing that I just created earlier this year is a 30 day email program called worthy. And it is all about, reclaiming your self worth, your unconditional self worth from the inside, but it's tailored around letting love do the work for you.

So like, I'm really tired of a lot of healing stuff out there that has you working really, really hard to heal because it does not, does not actually have to be as hard as we're making it. Um, so that's called worthy. Uh, it's just a 30 day email. Um, of course it's only 33 bucks. Uh, so highly, highly recommend that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I found you on medium. com too. I found one of your articles and I was like, well, she is very vulnerable for a three. I, I like it. Yeah. I need to get her on the panel.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yeah, actually that, that I had a burning thought as I was listening to y'all fours. I was like, Oh man, this is so good because I've got, I've got a four on me for sure.

And I've realized that like, My four parts are so gifted and special and deep, and they are weird. They are really weird, and my three parts blame my four parts for why we're so lonely. Like, if you were less weird, if you were less deep, if you could just be more shallow and fit in, like, then we wouldn't be so lonely.

So as I was listening to the, the fours, I was like, oh man, that's like the war that's been going on inside of me all this time. So thank you fours for being so vulnerable with that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Love that, Jordin. I totally agree with that. Uh, Boonie, where can we find you?

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, my website is organizedmesses. com. I also have YouTube with a similar name, Organized Messes.

You can just find me there. I, So I have a disappearing relationship with my Twitch, but I want to promote content on there because of my love and support for being part of the gaming community. So I am streaming on Mondays and Thursdays. I actually just lecture because I like to info dump at people.

And it's like my history of not being able to just rant about a topic for 30 minutes on end, which is why I initially created my YouTube, but now I'm going to do it with a live. live action with people who can comment and ask questions. And so I've noticed, not coincidentally, I'm sure you all know, there's a lot of ADHDers and autistic people in the gaming community.

And so I found my people. Um, my perception of rejection is, uh, slowly disappearing and I feel like I do belong there. And so if anyone wants to come say hi, you can just lurk. You don't even need to say anything. Um, I'll be there. So, and I also have a couple lectures that I, I have. Recorded for letsplaytherapy.

org. It's through the lens of play therapy by talk about neurodivergence archetypes and video games for therapists seeking to understand the world in a different lens. So thank you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. I love that Boonie. And I found you on your YouTube channel. Thank you for taking up space and sharing your story. And, uh, I, I love that.

Keep doing that. Okay, Amanda.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I have on Facebook and Instagram, uh, two different accounts. nagyonfire is my personal, but I, I do health coaching, ADHD, all that stuff there. And then Nagy on Fire Coaching is more specific to self awareness, typology, that kind of thing. Um, and I wanted to add that the social media actually helped a lot of my Healing because I wasn't active on social media.

I was a lurker. I didn't want to expose myself in any kind of vulnerable way. So I just watched what other people were doing. And when I started, um, health coaching and talking about weight loss and posting those, uh, not so. Pleasant photos. Um, but I didn't want anybody to see was kind of therapeutic because it released a lot of that shame, right?

Like talking about the things we're ashamed of releases the power it has over us. So I actually found it therapeutic to be vulnerable and share a lot of these things, um, in social media and speaking a little bit more about the ADHD and whatnot. So, um, Yeah, for me, it was helpful to expose myself that way and realize, Oh, it's not that big of a deal.

Like the world didn't end and you know, a lot of people are like, I've I'm there too. And so there's that, that space of feeling like, Oh, I'm not alone. And all these things that I'm going through. So

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good. Thank you so much, Amanda, for sharing that. Last thought and we have Joanne.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I have two hats on one is as an enneagram therapist and, I have a free guide that's called the emotional habits of enneagram types.

It's a free PDF. I basically explore what I call the big five feelings. Mad, sad, glad, scared, dumb. And how each type has different relationships with each of those motions. And then with the feelings translator hat on I built an online school for feelings because a lot of the work that I do with clients, people like.

Why didn't they teach us this in school? So I made a school. And so with that, I have a free guide called, The Big Feelers First Aid Kit, basically what to do when messy out of control feelings show up at what seems to be the wrong place, the wrong time in the wrong ways. So that's a free guide.

But I also have the online school where I basically share In let's say 20 or so hours of things that I actually share with my clients in session. But I've had a long wait list for quite some time and also people reaching out from out of state. And I'm like, I can't work with you in therapy. So here's this and said, but that one you can find at intelligentemotions.com.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. I think that's everyone, right? Okay. Well, thank you to all of you for having the courage to share. I know that so many people right now feel seen and are feeling like, Hey, I'm not the only one and feel empowered to go get support or seek out support. So thank you so much for your courage and vulnerability.

And for those of you watching today, before you head over to the next interview or the next panel here on the summit, remember to do things, seek support and share compassion because you are not alone.

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How Enneagram Type-Specific Retreats Help You Dive Deep into Your Personality

Transformation from the Inside Out

As an Enneagram therapist, I want to walk the talk. I’m committed to working on my own Enneagram type’s ego structures so that even the way I help people aren’t cluttered by my own Type Four biases and reactivity.

(If you don't know what the Enneagram is, start here!)

I’ve been trained by my Enneagram teachers - Beatrice Chestnut & Uranio Paes — founders of Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy — and have gone through their Personal Mastery & Professional Certification Tracks.

Here are some other blogs about inner work retreats:

• How CP Enneagram Retreats Supercharge Your Growth

• Reflections from the CP Enneagram Inner Work Retreat as an Enneagram Type 4

Most of the prior retreats were for people of all nine Enneagram types.

This blog is about 5 reasons why Type-specific Retreats would help you take your inner work on a laser-focused level.

Reason #1: Less = More

The human brain can only take in so much information, let alone information about NINE DIFFERENT TYPES (or 27 subtypes!!).

Yes, I would still highly recommend the other 5-day retreats that cover the nine types, but there’s something about SIMPLICITY in doing the deeper dive on ONE TYPE (YOUR type!) that really hits home.

• What are the central themes of your Enneagram type?

• What are your type’s core childhood woundings?

• What are the main psychological defense mechanisms of your type?

• What is the emotional habit (aka PASSIONS) that drives your automatic patterns from behind the scenes?

• What is the mental habit (aka FIXATIONS) that immediately directs your focus, to then summon your passion and its workings?

• What does your type look like across all the Levels of Development? (e.g., what does a Type Four person fully stuck in ego look like vs. a Four who’s done a great deal of inner work?)

• What are the three SUBTYPES of your type (Self-preservation, Social, and Sexual)?

• What’s the alchemical outcome when you mix your passion with your dominant instinct?

• How can you tap into all three Centers of Intelligence (Head, Heart, Body) to grow beyond your type?

Ultimately, it would still be useful for you to be familiar with the other eight Enneagram types, but for the purposes of your own growth, having a fuller understanding of your own Enneagram type inside and out is practically more immediately useful so that you’re STAYING IN YOUR OWN LANE and not getting distracted from doing necessary work!

(I’m especially looking at you Enneagram Twos and Nines who often look to everyone else except for yourselves and also to Enneagram Fives who often hoard information without taking concrete growth steps!)

Reason #2: Get Straight to the Point of TAKING ACTION

When you do a deeper exploration of your own Enneagram type, you can skip the accumulation of heady knowledge and get right to the points that really confront you with a mirror that reveals your own patterns IN REAL TIME.

Personal growth work is already hard enough as it is, but it’s even more difficult if we tend to INTELLECTUALIZE what really needs to be ACTED upon.

I love how the Enneagram is both COMPREHENSIVE and COMPACT at the same time. The Enneagram contains a wealth of information about our types in very accessible ways that are easy to remember and regurgitate.

The hardest part is catching our patterns in the act, not learning what our patterns are. There comes a point where we’ve learned enough heady knowledge about our types that it’s now time to TAKE CONCRETE STEPS.

80% ready is READY ENOUGH. Take what you already know, and RUN WITH IT! Time is of the essence, and we need to know that sometimes we DO know enough to do DIFFERENTLY starting TODAY.

Let us not drag our feet any longer on taking the important steps towards freedom!

Find out what those steps are by signing up for your Enneagram type-specific retreat.

(If your type’s retreat isn’t available yet, contact them and add yourself to the waitlist!)

Reason #3: See Yourself Reflected in Others

I joke with my Enneagram Four clients about what might happen if you have a room FULL of Fours.

Lament all they want about how they’re the MOST different, unique, exceptional, and fatally flawed person on the planet…but they can’t ALL be right!

I used to tell this to clients as a hypothetical…until I actually attended the Type 4 Retreat myself and saw for myself how WILD and WEIRD it was to see MY patterns showing up in OTHER PEOPLE in REAL TIME. (It’s not just me!)

As with the Boggart in Harry Potter who morphs into what we fear most and disappears when we see how riddikulus! it is, so does our own ego loosen its hold when we see those same patterns in someone else like in a mirror.

Not only are we able to better OBSERVE our own patterns in action (might even be triggered by this), but we are also able to cultivate better COMPASSION for ourselves in ways we can for others (especially important for people who are so self-critical, self-judgmental, or self-loathing) as we see just how much that mirroring person is SUFFERING because of their/our type.

You def can’t get that insight by reading a book! Better to experientially SEE you for yourself in real time!

Reason #4: Focus on Your Type’s Passion 

All of the nine Enneagram types have a deadly sin (add two more to the Seven Deadly Sins and you have nine!):

• Type 1 - Anger

• Type 2 - Pride

• Type 3 - Self-deceit

• Type 4 - Envy

• Type 5 - Avarice

• Type 6 - Fear

• Type 7 - Gluttony

• Type 8 - Lust

• Type 9 - Sloth

These PASSIONS (lit., “suffering”) are each type’s ego-driven emotional state that totally takes over someone’s life. They are a reaction to us losing contact with who we truly are (our “ESSENCE”), and are ways that our EGO tries to cope with that loss.

The word personality means MASK. Each of us HAS a mask, but we AREN’T our mask.

But what happens when we FUSE with our mask to the point of forgetting who we really are? We live our lives THINKING we know ourselves, when in fact we have no freakin clue.

EVERYTHING we do in life is driven by the passion, whether we know it or not. The issue is we usually are UNAWARE of how pervasive it is.

But what happens if we were to discover:

1. Everyone wears masks

2. We each wear a specific mask

3. Our specific mask looks like XYZ

4. Here is how the mask stays on

5. Here are ways to take it off

Once we have a more concrete sense of what each of our personalities look like (like knowing where the edge of the mask is), then we have a better shot at taking the mask off to reveal our true selves.

These type-specific retreats will help you know what YOUR mask looks like so that you can have that chance to know your true face.

When someone has done a lot of inner work to peel off that ego mask and reveal their essence selves, their emotional habit is the exact OPPOSITE of what it was in their ego state:

• Type 1 - Anger > Serenity

• Type 2 - Pride > Humility

• Type 3 - Self-deceit > Veracity

• Type 4 - Envy > Equanimity

• Type 5 - Avarice > Non-attachment

• Type 6 - Fear > Courage

• Type 7 - Gluttony > Sobriety

• Type 8 - Lust > Innocence

• Type 9 - Sloth > Right Action

As an example, the more personal work I do as Enneagram Four (whose reputation is to constantly compare ourselves and always be in emotional chaos), where do I go?

Towards seeing myself as being EQUAL to + SIMILAR with others, and having emotional STEADINESS.

Pretty wild, huh??

Reason #5: Focus on Your Type’s Fixation 

In the same way each Enneagram type has an emotional habit (PASSION), each type also has a specific mental habit (FIXATION).

• Type 1 - Resentment

• Type 2 - Flattery

• Type 3 - Vanity

• Type 4 - Melancholy

• Type 5 - Stinginess

• Type 6 - Cowardice

• Type 7 - Planning

• Type 8 - Vengeance

• Type 9 - Indolence

Each type lives in a deluded/warped version of reality as we “fell from grace” and lost touch with true reality (the Holy Idea)

• Type 1 - Resentment > Perfection

• Type 2 - Flattery > Will

• Type 3 - Vanity > Harmony

• Type 4 - Melancholy > Origin

• Type 5 - Stinginess > Omniscience

• Type 6 - Cowardice > Strength

• Type 7 - Planning > Wisdom

• Type 8 - Vengeance > Truth

• Type 9 - Indolence > Love

Yes, this is very jargony, but part of that is likely because of:

1. translation issues

2. this likely being beyond our current emotional & intellectual paygrade to fathom

The main thing for you to know now is that even BEFORE the passion drives the train forward, it’s our FIXATION that sets that train on the train track.

Where we look affects where we go, and what we focus on limits our reality. (Imagine the sky that you see is but a painted ceiling. What if there’s SO MUCH MORE out there?)

No matter how much work we do to peel off that personality/ego mask, if we don’t shift our attention AWAY from the mask, it’s only a matter of time until it goes back on.

We need something else to focus our attention on so the mask STAYS OFF. That is what the Holy Ideas are about.

It’s easy to get lost in all the abstract, metaphysical language, but that’s all the more reason to really hone in on what this means for YOUR specific type.

All of this knowledge is pointless unless you know what it concretely means for YOU where you are right now.

Summary

In this blog, I listed five reasons why I HIGHLY recommend that you try a Type-specific Inner Work Retreat:

1. Less = More

2. Get Straight to the Point of TAKING ACTION

3. See Yourself Reflected in Others

4. Focus on Your Type’s Passion 

5. Focus on Your Type’s Fixation 

Ready to go deeper in your personal work?

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Healing Burnout with the Enneagram

I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Samantha Mackay on her Youtube channel. Samantha and I talked about how knowing our Enneagram type can help us recover from burnout.

Watch the video or scroll down for the transcript.

Healing Burnout With The Enneagram

Samantha: This conversation is jam packed with insights and tools and beautiful metaphors that will help you on your journey for healing with burnout and avoiding burnout in the future. And even if you've never burned out, it will help you support someone who has, or who is recovering today. I'm talking with Joanne Kim of OliveMe Counseling, a marriage and family therapist based in California. She's a Certified Brainspotting practitioner and Enneagram trained professional. We talk about the five main feelings. The fifth one might surprise you and the surprising feeling we need to access more often to help us shift out of burnout and the five things we need more of to help nourish ourselves and support our recovery. And we talked about which one each center of intelligence needed to do more of or to focus or prioritize on. Now there are a lot of links in the notes to get more information to help you connect with Joanne. And let me know in the comments, which metaphor or framework you love the most, and they're going to start using in your life. All right, that's it. Enjoy.

Samantha: So we're talking about burnout and how we can heal it with the Enneagram. It may be that a good place to start is what is burnout? Like, and how do we know that we have it?

Joanne: I think one signal for burnout is that we've just exhausted our reserves. That when we had more energy, we operate one way. And then when we burnt out, it has all the spiky stuff that we're usually not proud of. So as a therapist, I usually work with people around their emotions and our emotions. I'm biased. I'm a four. Like I do a lot of feelings work, but I believe that each emotion has its own message behind it. Our emotions are supposed to tell us what we need at the end of the day. But if we label some feelings as good and others as bad, then we kind of get all tangled up. And burnout is one outcome where we've played favorites with our feelings so much so that we get all tangled up and stuck. And then on top of that, we get frustrated at ourselves, frustrated at other people. So I think anger is probably a really central emotion when it comes to burnout because usually anger is a very active, dynamic, powerful emotion. Once you use up all your resources, you're usually left with the other ones. Anxiety, numbness, sadness, loneliness, partially because in our burnt out state, we make a lot of decisions that cause more problems for us to have to clean up.

Samantha: It's really interesting the way you, you frame it all within that realm of emotions, because I remember when I was burnt out the second time, I was just exhausted, I'd taken a job that I had loved and stopped caring. And when I, when I resigned to essentially go and sleep for three months, they offered me what then was my dream job. And I just, I couldn't care about it. I couldn't, I couldn't find any, any emotion to get excited, to come back from the brink, um, there.

Joanne: Well, the, there's a possibility that the emotion that you were feeling a lot of back then was numbness. I asked people like, what are you feeling right now? And often people say, well, I don't feel anything. I usually then follow up with the question, is it that you don't feel anything in particular or that you feel numb because numbness is the presence of a specific feeling. And so like chafing, you know, when our skin keeps rubbing against the same part over and over again until it's like rub raw, right. Numbness kind of kicks in to help reduce it constantly being activated, right? Constantly being stimulated or triggered. And so part of burnout is we've exhausted our resources in overly focusing, overly working, overly paying attention to things that we just can’t anymore. So numbness comes in. It's a very protective thing. It's so that we don't continue to expend more energy, but numbness is sometimes seen as a problem. You see someone sitting on a bench just staring off into space and you're like, are they okay? Hey, wake up. Come back, right? We kind of shake people out of that state because sometimes we're uncomfortable with people being in a flat state But maybe that's our body's way of trying to actually help us in that instead of us needing more, more stimulation, more activity, more intensity, maybe we actually need less. If we give ourselves less to give our bodies a chance to recover, then I think naturally our faculties will come back online, will be present again, and we'll be able to enjoy things. What you're describing when you said, you know, like they offered me a position that was my dream job and I just wasn't interested, There's a term called anhedonia that is one, it's actually one particular marker of depression or burnout. Hedonia, that's kind of where we get the word hedonic pleasure, right? So anhedonia means no pleasure. It's the state that person gets into where they don't feel joy over things that really used to excite them, probably because their nervous system has been so bombarded already.

Samantha: It's so interesting because that's a seven. You know, it's all about pleasure. And it's so interesting to think that at some point there is just no capacity for pleasure anymore. It's um, that's fascinating. So I'm gonna turn to the types in just a second, but I want to just call out what you said, that numbness is a protection mechanism. And I think that's really important because most of us think numb is bad, but I think one of the most pivotal moments in working with my therapist was when she said, could you be numb? Could you be feeling numb? And I'm like, Oh, I feel numb all the time. This is just my state of being. And having lived in that state for such a long time, it was amazing to have a reframe for it. That was so helpful.

Joanne: Yeah. I mean, I think about numbness kind of being like a styling back on our sauces in food. One of my favorite foods is sushi, Japanese food. And one of the things I love about Japanese food is that it's not centered around heavy sauces. It's more down to the freshness of the ingredients themselves. I live in the United States where like most of the restaurants here, they constantly just like douse their salads, their meats, everything in like such intense flavors. And then they accompany that with like extra cocktails or other things that just keeps adding more intensity. And some of the close people, um, in my life, that's what they gravitate towards, because that's what their taste buds are used to. And so when it comes to them eating Japanese food, it's like a taste test. Very bland and boring. And so it's taken me some time as a way of connecting with my body to actually practice cutting out flavors, reducing the amount of sugar I put in my coffee, dialing it back on the sauces, drinking tea without any extra additives into it. And then like noticing like, Oh, there's actually a lot going on here. There's a lot of subtlety to it. That totally got missed, buried under all the extra stuff that we do, but that's basically what we do in our day to day life lots of activities, full schedules, you know adding TV shows that are about like murder mysteries that keep us up until you know late at night because of all these cliffhangers.

Breaking the Cycle: Embracing Silence, Stillness, and Solitude to Reconnect with Yourself

Samantha: I'm thinking as a head type, I need to learn some more, and I can imagine for heart types, I've got to keep relating, I've got to keep connecting, and body types, I've got to keep doing. And we get stuck in those, that, those false, you know, narratives, um, that we don't realize add intensity into our system, that are extra source.

Joanne: Yup. And so one of the main things that I teach my therapy and coaching clients, they usually reach out to me because they're so good at focusing on and taking care of other people's needs that they forget their own until they get so resentful that they just can't take it anymore. And so one of the first things that I teach them is about numbness. As I've shared with you, that numbness is not the absence of feelings, but it's the presence of a very specific emotion. And then they're like, Oh yeah, that's what I feel all the time. And then the concrete step is to focus on one of the Five S's of Less. Okay. These are Silence, Stillness, Solitude, Simplicity, and Space.

These are the different ways by which we can dial back and all the ways that we're constantly bombarding ourselves. But three of those things, silence, solitude, and stillness correspond with the triads of the Enneagram. Silence for head types, lots of chatter going on. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many possibilities or options. Solitude for hard types. And dialing it back, spending time by oneself to oneself for oneself, instead of constantly focusing on other people's experiences, stillness for body types, because there's constantly a lot of activity and busyness. Busyness is seen as a badge of honor, especially in my part of the world, in the Silicon Valley. These three things are also described in a lot of different spiritual or faith traditions. Like they've been talked about for thousands of years, maybe. And the Enneagram has also been talked about for thousands of years. Right. And so it's like, it's no wonder that, you know, a lot of human existence is us just trying to learn the basics all over again. And it's just not quite getting, making its way in.

Samantha: And it seems ridiculous that it's so hard to learn the basics and yet is our daily struggle. So when I took those three months off work, you basically described those five things exactly what I had unintentionally. So I did have an extremely long list of things I was going to do every day. And thankfully I had a mentor who said to me, write them all down, but only do exactly what you like you and your body feels like in the moment. And literally all I did was sleep. I would occasionally eat and occasionally go for walks. I didn't watch TV. I didn't read books. I didn't do yoga. Like I didn't do the massive list of things. And it's still even with that three months. And then I sort of started to slowly work again, still took another two years before I could work full time. And even on those first few weeks and months and years, I could still only work a few hours a week in terms of providing that focus because I still need so much of those five things. Cause I'd been denying them for myself for so long.

Joanne: Yeah, I kind of think of them as items on a menu. Take your pick. What's on your, what's on your plate today?

Samantha: Yeah. And if you push it, you'll have to do all five at once.

Joanne: I mean, we're trying to do less here, not more. I get it. I mean, so I think one of the, main instincts that tend to show up in my practice, I get a lot of folks who are self pressed dominant who are so good at trying to optimize and hyper optimize, like how can I cram the most stuff in the shortest period of time, go for efficacy and efficiency? It's the trap of optimization in that the more we try to optimize, the less efficient we get. I mean, this is, you've heard of instances where, you know, multitasking is not effective, but it happens so easily for a good number of us like it's just reflex like thinking I need to get I need to go to the grocery store to grab some milk, on my way to the grocery store I'll also pass by the post office and I'll also stop by the you know other store where I need to return something and then somehow a single task of getting milk from the grocery store becoms like five or six things and then I'm frustrated because people won't drive fast enough in front of me. So I was like, where did this frustration come from? It came out of nowhere. It came out of thin air, but really is the expectations that I placed on myself. For what reason? I don't even remember anymore because it's part of my autopilot and being self pressed dominant person. And so that's one of the things that I also share with them. It's like, well, Could it be possible that you try to optimize is actually what's leading to anti-optimization? If that's the case, would it be the case that you focusing on one thing at a time might actually make you quicker? Can we just take things off your plate? Focus on that one thing at a time. A lot of my clients hate it. They're like, why?

Samantha: Well, and I feel like getting so burnt out and getting so sick forced me to have to focus on one thing at a time. And yet I've noticed the past couple of weeks that actually multitasking has started to look different from what I expected. And so it's sneaky how it creeps back in, even when you think you've done like a lot of work on it.

Joanne: So when it comes to our own personal inner work, like, uh, my Enneagram teachers like mentioning that we have to be extra vigilant in constantly looking out for how our Enneagram autopilot will try to sneak its, sneakily sneak its way back in. And then we're all of a sudden tangled back right back up again. Mm. So sneaky.

Samantha: So you mainly see nines, ones, twos and fours. Is that right? In your practice? And so like, what are some of the like differences that you see in terms of what burnout can look like? Because I know some people think, well, nines, they're so slothlike how could they possibly have burnout? But they're such hard workers. I'm curious about that. And then, you know how the different types can start to focus on one of those five S's. And how they can start to be a little more inefficient.

Joanne: Yeah, so the reason why I work with nines, ones, twos, and fours is because on the Enneagram Diagram, they're the right side of that circle. Nines kind of straddle it at the top. But I've heard in some resources that the right side of the symbol is called the Social or the Prosocial types, and then the left side being called the antisocial types. Hmm. And the difference is that prosocial types tend to have their own patterns that are often oriented around going along with other people. Whereas antisocial types tend to do things more independently of others or sometimes even against other people. So because that's what's built into the type structure, the reason why those who are on the right side of the Enneagram tend to get burnt out is because they constantly orient themselves around other people or things outside of them. You know, focusing on other people's experiences, their feelings, their needs. Like you can see 9s, 1s, 2s, 4s are kind of the exception to the rule, but like in a lot of ways, nines and twos just generally focusing their attention outside of themselves forgetting themselves their own wants and needs. Twos they might think about their own needs, but kind of in after they already get resentful about it and not having it reciprocated in their relationships. Ones often repressing their own wants and needs because they think their needs are bad and trying to be a good person whatever that means to the point where they just paint themselves as a dead corner and they find out they have needs anyway. And then, fours, fours tend to focus on other people, but in opposition. So on the surface, it seems like they're the ones where they don't care about what other people think. They absolutely care about what other people think, but they just try to define themselves as opposite. And so they also get burnt out. In that there's no central anchor point in them being connected to who they inherently are, image type. And so all four of them, I mean, I would work with threes too, if they thought that therapy was useful. I don't often see them. Uh, but in, in the way that the prosocial types, their types often and, blurring distinctions between themselves and others, they blur the boundaries. So, it's like we're ones. I am not myself, but I am someone who fills a specific role in a collective. I am known for my position, for my power, my responsibility, my actions, the consequences. I don't have any sense of inherent individuality. I am a cog in a bigger machine. Like that's just kind of generally how I think ones operate. And so there's a lot of guilt in even admitting that they're exhausted and they have needs because they should be doing more, you know, twos also feeling similarly, but more for relationship reasons. It's like, well, what if they don't like me anymore? Type of thing. There's a lot of anxiety that keeps people focused outside of themselves. Until they get burnt out, they get resentful, shit hits the fan, things break, and then they, you know, reach out to a therapist like myself, and they're like, I don't, I don't know why I keep doing this to myself, right? And some of them, they already know their Enneagram type, and so we can just jump right in as to how their type shows up in different ways. Some of them are like, I don't even know why I keep doing this to myself. And it's like a whole like eye-opening experience for them to realize that autopilots exist and that they happen to have a specific autopilot. So in terms of all four of those types, probably solitude is the main thing for nines and twos. As the others referencing types. Nines, especially like with sloth, you might see this less in self presence, but more social sexual lines that are inherently people oriented, where if they don't have anyone to merge to, they're just kind of floating aimlessly and there's no movement. Right. But that's precisely why they need to spend time away from agendas being implemented from other people and more to themselves. Um, ones probably could benefit from stillness and silence and quieting the shoulds instead of thinking of shoulds. It's, you know, the idealist types ones, fours and sevens are like, well, things, how things should be, how things could be, how things could have been versus thinking of how things are for, you know, how, how they just are, right? So for ones and fours, focusing on what's present, what exists already, instead of looking towards a potential or hypothetical possibility. Simplicity, ones and fours probably could use a lot of that because they make things way too complicated. Um, and space, I like thinking of space, like, yeah, uh, opposite of clutter, just having constant things around and just needing even physical room, literally going outside in nature, standing under the big sky, seeing oneself as a small, tiny speck in the larger universe, I think ones, twos and fours could really benefit from that because in our different ways, we think of ourselves as so important. So, those are just a little bit of different examples of how the five S's would kind of integrate for each person according to their type.

Escaping Autopilot: How Caring Too Much Can Lead to Burnout and Numbness

Samantha: And it's so interesting how that autopilot really creates that pattern of setting aside feelings, not tending to the things that are difficult. Or in the fourth case wallowing in those feelings, but yeah, you know, all the self pressure can equally just not pay attention to them. And just thinking about how we started this conversation about how there is all these feelings and we need the information that they're bringing us. And when we're just too busy or just too on autopilot or caught up with all the, the thoughts that are saying we should do this and we have to do that, those feelings don't get heard Because I wouldn't have thought of burnout as being not having the time to tend to or listen to our feelings coming up and that just and they bottling up till we get numb I'm just finding that connection fascinating and seeing that all come together in that way because I think it's easy to think of burnout is I've just done too much as opposed to I've cared too much.

Joanne: So there's a couple different terms. There's compassion fatigue. There's vicarious trauma. There's my favorite term, ruinous empathy or empathy gone too far. Kim Scott in her book, Radical Candor, fantastic. I would highly recommend it, but again, pro social types, giving too much of a damn about lots of different things. I mean nines kind of might have an easier time because part of their autopilot is to be in numbness - the narcotization right the checking out But in some ways all those types need to care less about whatever the types focus on and to care more about things that are in the blind spot. It's just that it just so happens that for all four of them what's in their blind spot is their own needs and wants. So I like talking in general. When I introduce emotions, I talk about what I call the big five feelings, mad, sad, glad, scared, numb. Obviously, there are more feelings than that. Yeah, but you add numb into the big five. That's really interesting. Okay. And part of the reason for that is I mean, anger, sadness, joy, fear. Those are usually mentioned when people talk about the main emotions, but I swapped out disgust for numb because numb is the presence of an actual feeling instead of the absence of them. And I like thinking of these as a set. They go hand in hand. For example, anger is a very present tense, action oriented, expansive, powerful emotion. Sadness is more focused on the past and what could have been. In a very low energy, more contemplative, kind of heart driven space, joy being the emotion that says that things are good and they're available in their presence right now. Anxiety that's pointing towards the future of what could be, but towards the negative and also very active emotion, but it usually makes a person feel Seems smaller, whereas anger makes them seem bigger and then numbness, which is like, I don't care about anything. I'm going to dampen all of these guys. Right. And so when it comes to burnout, usually the main emotions in question are anger and numbness. I mentioned why numbness is the case because we've given too much of ourselves and we just don't have anything left in the tank. Right. Or we've gone through too many experiences in a short period of time and our nervous system is completely fried. What we don't think about is that anger is actually something that we need more of, not less, when we're burnt out. But it's not anger being frustrated towards other people, because people usually think of anger as a bad emotion. Like, oh, we shouldn't be angry. Whereas anger actually says, this really fucking matters. Numbness says nothing matters. Right? So the opposite of that is like, you know, this specific thing or I or that other person really matters and that what's happening to that person needs to change now. There's a sense of urgency and the, um, requirement for major shifts to happen agency action will all that. So when we get to a point of burnout, we're not in a place to feel sadness, joy, anxiety, because we're checked out. Right. But we can't stay in the state in this space for very long because we still have things like life still continues even when we're burnt out, right? We need to actually use anger, see it as a potential good emotion and use it on our behalf so that we're not in a position where our body needs to summon numbness for us. If we had tapped into the fiery, vibrant, creative energy of anger in the first place. as pro-social type, we would not have been in a place where our needs were running on empty, that our own experiences were missed by other people. We would actually speak on behalf of ourselves. We would address situations where we are unfavored or looked over or taken advantage of. So I would think of burnout as being the outcome of us having done, underly having done anger, not doing it too much. And so in addition to us actually doing nothing, we need to actually start connecting with that creative energy again.

Samantha: I love how you call anger creative energy, that those things are rarely paired together, but I can really see how powerful that is. And my first thought was, It's not okay to be angry on your behalf. Like it's okay to be angry on other's behalf, but it's really hard to summon that energy on your own behalf. Cause I, as I think back to what led me to be burnout, I couldn't have expressed anger at other people, but you're right, I could have generated some anger on my behalf and led me to make different choices.

Joanne: Yeah. And I've come to this conclusion in my own Enneagram work, because I am a four who's self preservation instinct dominant and sexual repressed and I had a lot of biases against the sexual instinct and I think that instinct itself is probably the most directly connected to anger. The sexual instinct is also connected to spontaneity, intensity, what's wild, what's vibrant, what's fun, exciting, things like that. Whereas a self pressed dominant person, I kind of clamp it all down. Right. And so as I started summoning my own repressed instinct, the sexual instincts and started tapping into more of my anchor, it's like, well, I don't have as much buildup of those other feelings anymore because my needs are getting met more directly instead of in a roundabout way, instead of me constantly exhausting myself, feeling like I have to prove that I deserve goodness. As if I don't already deserve goodness, right? And so anger was probably one of the most healing emotions to connect with. That was a huge surprise to me. I'm like, what do you mean I'm supposed to do anger more? I want to do it less.

Samantha: I want to do as little as possible. It's so funny. It reminds me one time I was in this Martial arts class and I was hitting something and they said, imagine it's a person's face and boy, did I get so much more focused and I had energy that just, I didn't know I had the second I put someone's face in it.Yeah. I think it's, it is really important to reframe and re-understand what anger is because most of us think of it as rage. And yet it's simply an ability to stand up for ourselves and others, but anger can be extremely quiet. It just has this presence. It's grounded. It's focused, it's clear, it's direct. It doesn't have to be loud and critical or violent in any way.

Joanne: No, I think violent, the violent explosive type of anger is most likely to happen when we don't give anger its rightful place to show up. Like if there were adequate opportunities for us to speak up about what we're needing directly. Actually, the tone of anger can sound like, Hey, can I get my stapler back? It becomes big because it's repressed and then it goes underground and it comes out the black market. There's just one more piece is that I think in just studying different aspects of the Enneagram - those who have a sexual dominant instinct probably get unfairly pegged as being too much, too bad, too intense, too angry, too whatever But I mean i'm speaking as someone who's not sexual dominant I think sexual dominant folks probably get too much flack that they actually need to be seen with respect. And we need to know what value they bring to this world, that those who are sexually repressed, especially, need to actually do more of, not less.

Samantha: Completely. And the more I spend time with people whose Enneagram type I know, when they say something that I, that is really unexpected to me, I'm able to value it a lot more. You know, when a six says you should question that, I'd be like, no, no, it's fine. I I'll just take it. It's great. And I'm like, well, maybe. Maybe I should question that. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, you know, and it's, I'm finding that really useful because each type, each dominant instinct brings its own value, even though it brings its own autopilot. It brings value and we can learn so much from other people, even Um, as we're all doing our inner work to tame those instincts, calm those autopilots. So the thing I wanted to ask about is the caring too much piece and learning how to care less, because when I was going through that, it felt like a part of me had to die to start caring, to stop caring about the things I was cared about so much. And it was a really difficult reframe because I thought if I stopped caring about these things, who am I? What am I, what's left if I stop caring so much? And so I'm curious how you might help types make that shift.

When Growth Disrupts: How Personal Development Challenges Relationship Dynamics and Autopilot Tendencies

Joanne: Well, in all the types, I think of all the types as archetypes of the universal human experience. We resonate with a little bit about all the types. We just get stuck in one. It's the one that's most familiar. So much so that we just assume that's the default. And we see this, especially in relationships where different types tend to be drawn towards each other. And oftentimes they're like the types that share a line on the arrows path, right? Or wings even. Right? I think that the things that we value in our types are probably ways by which we outsource to someone else things that we actually need to do for ourselves. So, I'll give you type 2 and type 8 as an example. Type 2s. They care so much about other people in their autopilot when actually they actually need to take some of that care towards others and direct it towards themselves so that they get their needs met more directly instead of through another person. But it's as if them caring for themselves is bad, therefore they need to go about this in a direct way. Type 8s. Type 8s are known to really value strength and power, or at least not being vulnerable. But they outsource, they, they lop off their vulnerability. and they project it onto someone else, making someone else seem smaller and weaker than they actually are, and thereby making themselves feel bigger and stronger than they actually are. And so they're usually going together in a set, because often apes need someone to protect. Right. Right. And so, in a sense, like, we hear of instances where opposites attract. Well, part of the reason why they might attract each other is because each person is outsourcing to the other person what they ought to do for themselves. A lot of 2 5 combos in relationships. Right. And so at a certain point, when there are these relationships formed, there isn't a huge problem that happens when one person starts growing. When a person starts healing and starts doing their work, they give away things that they have no business taking on, like other people's responsibilities. And then they take back what's rightfully theirs, like their own power and voice. Well, what happens if you have equilibrium between these two people and then one person starts changing? Well, that's gonna completely disrupt the whole thing. And so often there's pushback because this person's like, well, what are you doing? You're supposed to stay in your position because that's the agreement that we made, right? And so when it comes to caring too much, it's not clear whether what we care about is actually what we, in our essence, care about, or what our autopilots care about. It's not clear whether eyes of four really value authenticity, or the type four values authenticity.and I need to recognize how I have my autopilot, but I'm not my auto, but there's some space that I need to create more distance from. And so when people do their personal work, there's a huge portion of it where everything is turned upside down and people don't know which side is up anymore. It's like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to like practice anger on purpose. Like I thought anger was a bad emotion. That's supposed to be like super destructive. Like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to do the very thing that I've vowed to stay as far away from. What do you mean? I'm supposed to have boundaries. Like, that's being selfish, like, you know, there's a lot of turmoil and resistance and the dissonance is actually probably a marker that people are growing. So I usually at this point encourage them, it's like, you're going in the right direction. It's just going to feel like crap for a long time.

Samantha: Yeah. And to be able to ask those questions and even to recognize that there is a paradox and there is things out of alignment is, yeah.

Joanne: So I like thinking about our autopilot, like someone who's about to get laid off, they're about to lose their job and they're freaking out. So they start creating all these problems that it knows how to solve so that it stays employed. I think that's what our Enneagram type ego structure is like. So instead of us judging ourselves, like, why do I keep finding myself in the same situation over and over again? I can't get out of it. And then they judge themselves like, no, there's an active second party with its own agenda and its own desire. Its agenda is to keep you in autopilot in the ego. This other person has an agenda for you to not notice what it's doing, but for you to judge yourself instead. So once we think about, Oh, There's another entity that is trying to get me to do something. Okay. Let me turn on my inner rebel and create some space and some boundaries with my own type so that I can find out who I really am. So it's a lot of cloudy mind work for a lot of people in their process.

Samantha: I love that explanation of the, the type is someone who's about to get fired and working really hard to stay employed, and to conjure your inner rebel. Like, I love these two little metaphors. They're fantastic.

Reclaiming Joy: How Building a 'Fuck-It' List Can Heal Burnout and Reconnect You with Your Inner Child

Joanne: I mean, in psychology, we call that externalizing. We need to put that outside of ourselves instead of thinking that it's a part of us and who we truly are. And so once people start. thinking that there's a whole way of living, then it just opens all these possibilities. But in order to get there, there's going to be a huge section of that path where it's going to feel like we're going in the opposite direction and that's okay. Keep going instead of stopping. But this is why I don't blame people for wanting to stay in their ego. It is everyone's personal decision as to whether or not to pursue this path. And so I'm very thankful when people do, but I also don't blame people for not doing so.

Samantha: Yeah, that autopilot works pretty hard and it can be hard to see it in action. So just, just wrapping up on burnout and all those feelings we can't access and needing to get into anger more to like advocate on our own behalves and what we need and also the solitude, silence, space.

Joanne: Stillness. Simplicity. Yeah. Stillness and simplicity. I'll, I'll give you the link to the blog so that there's a quick link. Perfect. It's all listed in there.

Samantha: Okay. Awesome. Any, uh, final thoughts or words on healing burnout with the Enneagram?

Joanne: Ooh. Um, one of my favorite activities I recommend is for people to build a Fuck It List. This is a list, not of all the things that people want to do before they die, like bucket lists operate, but a fuck it list is a list of all the things that they never gave themselves permission to do, but they really wanted to do growing up. This is learning how to tap into our inner children. Again, because a lot of the pro-social types are ones that grew up way too quickly. So they lost a lot of that innocence, that carefreeness, the inherent sense of their own goodness. And a lot of sense learning from a lot of our sevens, right? Tapping into joy, purity, ease to kind of offset the hard work that gets them to a place of burnout in the first place. So one of mine was to get a tattoo or to go watch a movie by myself in the theater. It doesn't have to be super intense. Instead of looking for permission from the outside, doing it.

Samantha: I like it. It doesn't have to be super intense. And yet going to the movies by ourselves can be a super intense experience. You know, you don't have to go jump off a cliff. To do some deep inner work, you know, and sit in that discomfort of doing something that you've never had permission to do before.

Joanne: Simplicity. Simplicity. Thank you so much for taking me through all this today. Thank you for having me here.

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What are the emotional habits of your Enneagram type?

Grab this free guide that highlights the patterns that keep you stuck and the next steps to grow beyond your type!

Don't know your Enneagram type? Find yours here!

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

SAMANTHA MACKAY

Samantha Mackay is an Enneagram coach certified by Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. She has spent 15 years healing from chronic stress, anxiety, depression, pain, an autoimmune condition and, more recently, trauma.

She believes that understanding the role of our ego in our healing is key. Samantha helps people reclaim their inner wellbeing through the wisdom of the Enneagram. For their bodies, for their work and for our relationships with others, at home and at work.

Learn more about her here.

Enneagram Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

Joanne Kim (OliveMe Counseling) and Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) join Nikhil Sharma (AlignUs World) in a six part series to discuss the Enneagram.

In this six-part series we give an introduction to each Enneagram Type, look at each of the Triads: Body, Heart, and Head, and discuss subtypes and instincts.

Watch the video below for Heart Types - Types 2s, 3s, and 4s (or keep scrolling past the downloadables for the transcript!)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part I)

• An Intro to the Enneagram (Part II)

• Body Types - 8s, 9s, 1s

• Head Types - 5s, 6s, 7s

• Heart Types - 2s, 3s, 4s

• Subtypes and Instincts

Downloadables

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Transcript

Nikhil: Today we have a great topic, the Enneagram Heart Triad. We are welcoming back a special guest, Melinda Olsen who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, founder of Inviterra Counseling, and co-founder of Havenly Counseling Collective.

Welcome Melinda. Great to have you back here with us today.

Melinda: Thanks. So happy to be here.

Nikhil: Before we get started, do you mind just giving us a little bit of background about the work that you do?

Melinda: I'm an Enneagram Therapist. I'm an Enneagram obsessed person. Enneagram Two. So, I interweave that with all of my therapeutic work.

I like to bill myself as your resident Enneagram Therapist because I really love helping people go deeper into their Enneagram work beyond what the Types are. I really think that the Enneagram is just a transformative tool and I think it creates such a beautiful path toward transformation. When we're on that path we might not look the same as we did in the very beginning in terms of what our Type is. I love watching that process.

I'm also obsessed with creating community and care for helpers, for people who care for others and then just for my community at large. So that's what I'm obsessed with.

Nikhil: We can tell you’re very, very passionate. That's beautiful.

Thank you for being here with us today. Before we dive right into the Heart Triads for those that are new to the podcast and new to the Enneagram, do you mind giving us a quick overview of what the Enneagram is and what the Triads are?

What is the Enneagram?

Melinda: Yeah. In its most simple form, the Enneagram is just a personality descriptor. Numbers One through Nine. Every number describes a particular autopilot personality or particular coping mechanisms that we all do, constellations of coping mechanisms. So, when we talk about how we cope through life, get what we feel like we're needing, every Type does that differently. One of the ways that the Enneagram is divided, or split is into what you call Triads. We have three Types per Triad.

We have the Body Triad, which is Eights, Nines, and Ones. They tend to jam around anger, the emotion of anger.

We have Heart Types, which are Twos, Threes, and Fours. I'm a Two and we tend to deal with things like sadness and shame. That's what we tend to organize around.

Then you have the Head Types, which Nik, I know you are. We have Fives, Sixes, and Sevens. We call that the Fear Triad. That’s the Head Triad, the Fear Triad.

Every Triad has different themes that they have to navigate as they're on their transformational journey and different coping mechanisms that they lean into in order to get what their personality really thinks that they're needing. 

Nikhil: That's very well said.

I know you have such a great bond with this specific Triad. Like you said, you are a Type Two. Why don't we go over it? The Heart Triad, there are a lot of shame-based emotions. That shows up a little bit differently in each one of these Types. Why don't we start with Type Two and talk a little bit about how that goes with them?

Type Two

Melinda: I like to talk about shame and sadness, and that's a Beatrice Chestnut addition that I really support.

Type Two, they tend to be called “The Helpers”, but I like to kick that out the window because I think that that's a total stereotype. I think they're “Befrienders”. Two's autopilot is all about getting you to like me. Getting you on my side, getting you on board with loving me because I'm so great in whatever way I try to be great, so that people will love me. So that people will be on my side, give me what I'm needing. Twos really try to get what they're needing indirectly by making other people feel positively about them in whatever way that they organize around. That's really the theme of the Two.

One of the ways that happens is helping other people. But that's not the only way, and definitely not every type of Two does that. It could be through what we call seduction, like classic seduction. It could be through being nice and sweet and kind. It could be through bringing you a casserole. It could be through being very competent. It doesn't matter. But either way, we really are obsessed with making other people like us. We live our lives outside of ourselves, so we don't understand our own hearts and our own needs because we're so focused on other people's needs. That's really one of the issues of Enneagram Two.

Nikhil: So, you guys kind of have this feeling where if there's some sort of rejection or something along those lines where you don't feel you're good enough at times. Is that right?

Melinda: Yeah. All the time.

I feel like that might be almost in our shadow or subconscious. I think some of us are really aware of that but others of us are not. So, oftentimes we operate in the world thinking we know better how to help and care for other people. Sometimes we're operating in this pride space, but at the bottom of that, as we're trying to be in whatever way, more than who we are, more special, more significant, more likable, what we really don't come into much contact with, but definitely is running the show, is this feeling of not being good enough. Which is why sad and shame are something that Twos really struggle with.

Nikhil: I've gone through those feelings as well, that not feeling good enough. Again, for people that are out there, it doesn't matter what your Type is, you will likely experience something from each Type and each personality, each Triad. You’re supposed to, like an ideal version of somebody would be someone who has a balanced Head, Heart, and Body Type. So, anyone that's listening today, you could be likely picking up stuff like, that really resonates with me. Which is good because likely there's something that's going to be resonating with everybody.

I often think about, especially that or where I don't feel good enough then I think about not good enough for who, where is this good enough feeling coming from? What are we comparing this to and it's something that's been ingrained in us from a very young age that society has been structured. Like there's these “laws” that there aren't even real laws, right? But it's something that's just made up. What's great about this self-discovery journey is that when you realize that each individual is on their own little path and it's up to us to own that path and go your own way that's when the real awakening occurs. You start feeling different. That feeling of not feeling good enough, it starts to dissipate a little bit, I would say. There's a lot of parts of me that I do enjoy. So, it's nice to start understanding that.

But Twos, they really want to help please people. It makes them feel good.

Melinda: Yes. It makes them feel good and needed and significant.

Nikhil: How can Twos help balance that aspect out for themselves?

Melinda: Great question. Love that. That's the best.

One of the major themes, because Twos are such outward oriented Types, we focus on other people. The gravity of our existence is on others. So, if you think about gravity, almost like a blanket with something heavy on it. It's almost like we roll toward the thing that has the most gravity. Part of a Two's work is to flesh themselves out authentically, so they have more gravity. So, they start to focus more internally on themselves and what they need. Actually, I have this by my desk because like I said, I'm a Two. For viewers out there, I'm holding up a picture of a single dot and a very elaborate squibble. The single dot underneath says, “what I wanted to need” and the scribble is, “what I need”. Basically, it's just what we think we need is so simple but what we really need is incredibly elaborate and Twos are not in touch with that. So, shifting that gravity towards ourself, going internal, understanding our own feelings, dreams, thoughts, all of that is part of the work that I do with Twos. It's really shifting that gravity towards ourselves.

Nikhil: And it's like, again, when we feed more into ourselves, when we understand more of who we really are, we're better able to help others. You know what I mean? In a more sustained manner. It's really incredible when you can understand that, like the people start thinking, oh, you're being selfish or you're doing this. No, it's more like, hey, I'm trying to spend some time getting to know myself a little bit better so that I can show up better, not just for myself and for my family, for all those that are connected to me.

Melinda: Absolutely. And that's really the point. A lot of Twos do fear that this is such a selfish thing to do. But what I like to point out to them is in personality, like in your autopilot, the things that you're doing in order to care for other people, yeah, that's partially pure, but let's be honest. It's an indirect way of getting people to meet our needs and that's not actual generosity. Everybody thinks Twos are so generous. We are not, we are not. It's not because it's all a ploy to get our needs met when we don't know what they are. So, it's a very difficult web we weave.

Nikhil: Yeah, there's a little bit of manipulation maybe that's there.

Melinda: Yes, absolutely. That's a whole thing. I think when we shift our focus to understanding what we need, and that can be hard because Twos, experience our emotions like a roller coaster. It's a very chaotic experience inside. So, we feel feelings, but we don't tend to really know or understand why they come up or what's happening or when they're going to come up. So, the image I bring up for Twos that seems to really resonate is being on a roller coaster blindfolded. You experience all the feelings, but you don't know when the drop is or when all the turns are. We have to get to know our insides to get off the roller coaster, to really understand our feelings, and then understand what we need. And be direct about it instead of manipulating others to get that met when we might not even know what those needs are.

Nikhil: Well said.

So now, how does shame and these emotions show up for a Type Three?

Type Three

Melinda: Great question. Type Three. We can go over, just to talk a little bit about Type Three, if that's all right. Type Threes are outward oriented Types as well, just like Twos. Actually, there are a lot of similarities, but Threes are very “go-get-‘em”, action oriented because what they want is approval. They're going for success. They're going for applause. They're going for approval. Like, yeah, you're the best! Go Type Three! You rock! That's what they're living for. Whereas for Twos, that's really love, being liked, for Threes it really is more about being seen as successful.

What Beatrice Chestnut says around Threes is, emotions, they kind of get in the way for Threes to being that successful self. They like to be very efficient, to get stuff done, to be successful. So, they tend to shuck them out the window. Threes underdo emotion. They underdo sadness and shame. If you asked a Three what's your experience of shame and sadness, they'd be like, I don't know. That's what I find in my practice. You'll find Three is working really hard to get that approval.

Nikhil: They like to be admired. Is that what you would say?

Melinda: Yeah, yeah. It's like the admiration applause.

Nikhil: That’s kind of how they kind of show up. How can they better balance themselves to be able to feel some more emotion.

Melinda: I think first of all, because Threes work, they're the workaholics of the Enneagram. They're action oriented. They move quick, quick, quick. They want to make sure that they're getting shit done. They really need to start slowing down. Being unproductive for a Three, though hard, is incredibly important. Like, starting to slow down, because they can't even get in touch with their internals. They can't even get in touch with their insides if they're going so fast. That's torture for a Three, but all growth paths are torture. It really is about tuning inside to their actual desires instead of focusing so much on what will get them admired. Does that make sense?

Nikhil: It does make sense.

Melinda: So, I think slowing down to actually tune into themselves, asking questions like, do I really like this thing? Do I really like to do that? I don't know. What are my hates? What are my likes? What does that really mean? What is my true goal in life? How do I really want to live? Is it really for the admiration of others or doing these things? I might not even enjoy breaking my neck doing it, or is there a different way? And in that slowing down, they start to make more contact with their very sensitive hearts.

Nikhil: Again, it goes back to coming back into your inner self. Focusing on what it is that you want. Oftentimes our autopilot, as you said earlier, can be go, go, go, go. I want to be admired. This is the way it's supposed to be. Supposed to be for who? For what? There are times where I feel like I've been in that mode where I'd want some admiration and I think that's okay. It's okay to have some of that. It's all balanced. It's realizing is it coming truly from within that this is something that I've worked hard for and I am appreciating the admiration that I'm getting or am I doing everything just for admiration purposes.

Melinda: Yes, absolutely. And Threes are so good at tuning into whatever community they're a part of deems successful. Like either their family, or whatever communities there in, but do they actually think, the Three themselves, did they actually think that that's what success means or success looks like? Again, it is tuning into that inner self instead of working so hard to get that outside admiration.

Nikhil: All right.

Can we talk a little bit about the Type Four personality?

Type Four

Melinda: Yeah. Love Type Fours, as well. They’re all great. I love them all. I mean, I'm a Heart Type. I love them all.

Nikhil: Yeah, it's good. It's important because again, when we're most balanced, we have a little bit of each in us, right? So, you're just loving yourself. That's all.

Melinda: Yeah.

Fours, they cut a little different than Twos and Threes. Whereas Twos and Threes are outward oriented, Fours are very inward oriented. They tend to have a fairly good idea about how they feel, precisely how they feel. They tend to focus more on their internals, but not all of their internals, just the parts that they don't think are great, or the emotions that are suffering emotions. They tend to focus inward and really focus on things that might be wrong with them, ways that they're not good enough, or things that other people have that they wish they did but don’t. It's this longing. Fours experience this deep longing.

The internal experience for Fours, and that internal churn is very different than Twos and Threes. They shut out the outside world and focus inward. I think the reason that they do that is because they want to differentiate themselves. They feel different. They're “The Individualists”. So, they feel very different. They want to set themselves apart. Or often feel set apart.

Nikhil: What are some areas in there that that they can use or to try to help in their growth and development?

Melinda: The thing about Fours, Fours are probably the most therapized group of the Enneagram. First, I'm going to say that.

Nikhil: What are the Four known as?

Melinda: “The Individualists”.

Nikhil: That's exactly what I was thinking.

Melinda: I think. Does that resonate for any Fours you know?

Nikhil: Yeah, it does. That resonates with several Fours that I'm associated with, for sure.

Melinda: It makes sense, right? Every theme is around, if we think about that shame and sadness, it comes out in different ways. For Fours, and they're not thinking that they're good enough, they set themselves apart or aside and want to work to be special on an individual level. So, I'm special because I'm different, or me being different makes me special. That's kind of what they turn into. So, it can be really hard for a Four. They're the ones that have the most distinctive experiences of sadness and shame and probably the most direct experiences of sadness and shame, so much so that they have a hard time getting out of those feelings. They favor those feelings as opposed to maybe more positive feelings like hope or joy. They overdo those feelings.

To answer your question about growth, one of the first things that needs to happen is this recognition that their internals might not be 110% accurate in terms of how the world is and who they are in the world. They need to start balancing their internals with the people in their lives that care about them and what they say. There's a way in which the gravity needs to shift a little more balanced between external and internal feelings of who they are and how they define themselves because they think they're really negative. In fact, they're human beings and they're both beautiful and have issues like the rest of us and they tend to focus on the issues instead of the beauty. So, they need to start integrating that in.

Nikhil: I think we have a good understanding of the individuals, how each Type individually presents themselves.

A lot of our lives are based on relationships. Each individual at times, when we're in relationships, there's unhealthy qualities that can be exhibited. So, each one of these, especially being that they're part of the Heart Type and they're thinking with their emotions, what are some things that these Types need to be aware of when they're in relationships? That they can identify that, hey, there's something not right here, so that they can maybe take a step back, just being aware of some key factors or key traits that they tend to exhibit when they're unhealthy relationship patterns.

Unhealthy Relationship Patterns

Type Two

Melinda: Yeah. The biggest thing I see for Twos is just too much focus on their relationships. They will just focus all their energy on their partner or people and to the detriment of themselves. It can cause some issues. Because they're going to try to help people in ways that the person never asked for and then Twos start to get resentful. Like I helped you in all these ways and you're not even grateful. And I'm like, well, did they ask for that help? Resentment is something that you need to work on internally for yourself. It usually means you've overextended your boundaries or allowed somebody to cross your boundaries.

Nikhil: Can you say that again? Because that was beautiful.

Melinda: Resentment is something that you need to work on yourself because usually what that means is you've crossed your own boundaries or allowed somebody to cross your boundaries.

For Twos who live in resentment a lot, we need to understand that we need to create boundaries and not cross them to help others or care for others or go outside of ourselves. That happens so much in relationships. It's like you do it without even thinking. Then you look behind you and you're like, oh, that was a boundary. I only know that because I'm pissed that they didn't care for me right in the way that I wanted them to.

Nikhil: I think it's important like, we know when resentment starts building up in us and it's oftentimes that we just stuff it down inside. Then we think it's going to be okay or that happens in marriages or that's normal, you know what I mean. I was thinking about that.

It's like people just often think that it's normal. This is what goes on. The problem is what I've realized as I've grown up and I realized, no, Nik, that is only happening in your small subset group of friends and family that you're surrounding yourself with. There is a big world out there. There's 6 billion people. You realize that what you think is like that's okay to occur. Our thoughts are not necessarily true. We need to think about that for one second, realize all your thoughts aren't necessarily true. When we realize that, we can move forward with, hey, maybe something needs to change or, this isn't normal because I shouldn't be feeling like this for this prolonged period. Where did I learn that this is normal? Again, we learn what normal is through our immediate circle and our families and how we grew up. It doesn't mean it was the right way for you. We change and we're supposed to.

Melinda: That's the biggest thing I see with Twos, and I've experienced that too. So hopefully that helps some of your Two listeners.

Nikhil: Then how about our Type Threes?

Type Three

Melinda: So, usually I only see Threes in therapy for two reasons. One, they've either burned out or two, their partner, spouse, whatever has hauled them into therapy. When that happens it's usually because the Three is not really in contact with their feelings. They're working too much. They're really trying to be that successful person, but they're not tuned into their EQ, their emotional IQ in order to connect with their partner.

Usually, I'm seeing Threes have a really hard time, connecting relationally, even though they're Heart Types, even though they're so sensitive. They have a very hard time getting to that emotional nurturing level and that kind of emotional ability to hear their partner and connect in that way. That's usually what I find with my Threes and relationships. It's really hard.

Nikhil: That makes sense.

Then we have our Type Fours.

Type Four

Melinda: Type Fours, again, the most therapized Type on the Enneagram. I see them a lot in relationships when they're so focused inward it's hard for them to tune into their partner. Interestingly. So, if their partner has a different experience or something else going on, it's very hard for the Four to step outside of themselves enough to navigate that with them or to understand that experience. Now, Fours are great at not being judgmental. I think that's something I've noticed about Fours that I love. But it really is that piece about that lack of outward oriented-ness that tends to be an issue.

The other thing I see a lot is it's hard for them to step out of their own shame and their own sadness. That's usually what they're stuck in. Say a partner says, “Hey, I'm having a really hard time when you do X.” A Four could be like, “Oh, I did X? Oh, I'm a terrible person. There's something wrong with me. Why do I always do that?” Downward, downward, downward. What happens? The person who brought that need forward gets lost. They get lost in the Four just spiraling downward and inward. That is a dynamic I see a lot with Fours in relationships.

Nikhil: Relationships are a big deal. Obviously how we're showing up every day for ourselves it's important for us to have these tools of being aware of how our interactions are with others. It's important for our partners and others that we're associated with to understand who we are so we can better communicate, interact, and have more fulfilling conversations, more fulfilling relationships.

For all those that are listening out there, yes, it's important for you to understand who you are, but hopefully you're also picking up some traits of people that are around you and understanding like maybe that's why mom acts this way. Maybe I need to communicate with her like this or be more patient with her when she's stressed now, I know how she is at a certain type of way.

It's just all beautiful stuff I feel, the more we learn. It's not that you're necessarily going to learn every little detail. You're not going to necessarily figure out what your Enneagram Type is today per se, but hopefully you're figuring out some things about yourself and how you're showing up in a certain way. Then that just helps you progress and improve and helps balance yourself because that really is the goal. And these days, especially with poor mental health being on the rise. It's important to understand that the times and society is changing and there's something going on where more and more people are being affected in a negative kind of way.

Instead of us hoping for change to come from somewhere outside, it's never going to come, it's got to come within us. Each individual. It starts with yourself. And if you can optimize who you are, because you are the CEO of your own body, you can only control your thoughts, your emotions, your actions. That's it. There's nothing else that you can control. But if all of us started doing that that would amount to tremendous change. There's been more of a push now, right? For each individual to start focusing on their own mental health and their mental being. We often work out all the time. We get our muscles all big and do all that, but we're not focusing on mental fitness enough and that comes first with becoming more aware of who we are.

That's why all these self-discovery techniques, and obviously we are big homers of the Enneagram and that as a method for that. You probably see why we do love it so much and are passionate about it because it's very easy to see yourself in each one of these types of situations.

One other thing we wanted to touch on was because mental health has become more of a crisis, people are becoming more and more stressed. Each individual acts in a certain way when they are stressed. So, with each one of these Types, can you go over some of the traits that they need to be aware of when adversity hits them and how they tend to respond and maybe how they can improve that a little bit for themselves?

Enneagram Types & Stress

Melinda: What I've experienced is that every Type, they kind of experience some adversity until they hit a wall that makes change necessary. So, I'm going to describe how people look before they hit the wall.

Type Two

For Twos what happens is they grow in that resentment we were talking about. They get angrier and angrier. They're on that rollercoaster internally or number inside, sadder, or they kind of go into deflation with that shame. That starts to grow and grow and grow. And they're on that roller coaster with a blindfold. They're like, I have all these feelings and I'm so resentful. I read somewhere that Enneagram Twos can look like that nagging mother when they're in a very unhealthy state. That is definitely a space that Twos can get into. Then they tend to get into a lot of controlling behaviors, like controlling other people.

They tend into that Eight a little. They can tend into the Four as well, where they feel a lot, but they also go into the control of the Eight. Kind of manipulating people to do their will. When people aren't meeting their needs, the resentment grows until eventually something breaks. Then they end up in my office, or their kid is like, you need to go to therapy or we're cutting contact. It can get really dramatic depending on how long it takes for the Two to tune into themselves.

Nikhil: And Type Threes?

Type Three

Melinda: Type Threes, again, I find that they just numb out. They do more and more. The Threes that land in my office I find right beforehand, they've either experienced a hike in anxiety, which you've mentioned high anxiety, but they think that the way to deal with that is to just do more stuff. So even their vacations are productive. I could tell you so many stories about Threes that thought this vacation could have been improved by reading five self-help books or five self-improvement books and I'm going to have this schedule to make sure my vacation is as productively relaxing.

Nikhil: I like that. It's true. They can't just be.

Melinda: And it's very hard. So that gets picked up to a frenzied pace. The wall is usually burnout, debilitating panic attacks. Sometimes it's even health issues because they've somaticized all their emotions. They've taken all of their feelings into their body and it's causing issues. That's what I find, they become more and more numb out to that sensitive, sensitive heart they have.

Nikhil: Right. And just for people to understand that stress and internalizing stress and resentment, it will certainly show up in the physical aspect of things. I dealt with that a lot in my hospital training and liver failure, people overeating, then turning to other addictions, because that pain, those emotions internalizing that has to be channeled somewhere. Or if you're going to keep suppressing it you're using other substances or other devices to suppress that and that leads to poor health outcomes. People can certainly die from that. So, it is very important for you to understand the importance of not internalizing such emotion, pain, stress, there's certainly poor outcomes that will occur for all of us who do that. It's important to go to somebody like Melinda or your family or friend, whoever you feel comfortable with to discuss those things.

Threes don't hold it all in. You’ve got to let that out.

Then we have our Type Fours.

Type Four

Melinda: Type Fours, it really is just kind of leaning into that suffering and leaning into those emotions like anger, sadness, shame. Because Fours can also feel anger, depending on the Four, to a point in which it's almost like they have blinders on. They can't see anything else. That's all they see. They're looking down with blinders on and they're churning inside. So, they're caught in that downward spiral but they're aware that they're in that spiral and they're longing to get out, and they have no idea how to do it and then they beat themselves up for not doing it. That's a cycle that I see in Fours when they're in a very unhealthy place.

Now, the thing about it, when I say that Fours find themselves in therapy most right, usually therapists unknowingly reinforce this cycle. Because they're like, oh, you're so aware of your negative emotions. Let's talk about all your feelings. Let's talk about all these things. Which in some cases can further keep them stuck in those feelings. They can think about those feelings on their own for free. And they do. Before they hit that wall of realizing that they need to do something different. They're missing out on life staying stuck in this longing and shame and sadness. That's usually either that or somebody else gets them into therapy. That's what I find.

Nikhil: Well, so many amazing things that we discussed today. I feel like my mind's got a much better understanding of all these different Types, including myself. Again, when you talked about each Type, I felt like at least at some point in my life, whether that's currently, or a couple of years ago, I've felt those types of emotions or have acted those types of ways. I think people need to understand that we will go through different phases of life where we’ll resonate with each Type of personality, and we're supposed to. Or someone we know that does. So, it's important for us, the more we learn about the Enneagram, the more aware we're going to be, the better outcomes we're going to have. Not just personally or professionally, then most importantly, obviously in our relationships, which we need to show up every day for.

For our listeners out there, what are some key takeaways that you would you want them to take home from this podcast. Maybe giving each Type a little bit of a challenge to do for the week to start their self-discovery journey.

Growth Challenge

Melinda: I was really looking forward to this portion. I'm so looking forward to this portion of the podcast. Key takeaways are always awareness. So, if anything resonated with somebody and they think, oh, I might be a Heart Type. Just because you're a Heart Type doesn't mean you do feelings well. Let me just put that out there. We all have our feeling issues.

Kind of take a beat and reflect. Do you notice these themes in your life? Are they central? I think that's something that I would encourage anybody who's beginning an Enneagram journey to really lean into. I know you have some resources for people to figure out what Type they are. I know you're going to post those. I really think that's the first thing. Notice awareness is like you said, that's the first muscle that we can control. So really start to notice if you see resentment or leaning into suffering too much or numbness in your life. Those tend to be ways that Heart Types show up in their individual special ways. That's one thing.

I do have a challenge per Type, if that's okay for me to share.

Nikhil: I love it. No, that's perfect. Individualized each Type.

Type Two

Melinda: For Type Twos, I really want to challenge you. If you know that you're a Two within the next week or two to get some intentional solo time. So, you can't be around anyone else for maybe an hour or two. Ideally, get out of your environment, like your home environment, because there's too many things to do for other people in your home environment. Get out of your home environment. And then try to spend that time focused on your thoughts, emotions and dreams, like your internals. Notice how much you focus on other people, think about your relationships, or think about things outside of yourself. Like other people. Every time that happens, redirect, but just become aware of how often your thoughts go outside. It'll be a lot. Don't be discouraged. It's an awareness exercise. That's for Twos.

Nikhil: Be compassionate. Most importantly, be compassionate with yourselves. When you're starting to discover who you are there's a good side and there's obviously a shadow side that we all have and each one of us has this side. So, when we start becoming more aware of those aspects that we're not so proud of per se, it's important to be compassionate.

Melinda: Absolutely. And thank you because that's really important. Try to do this nonjudgmentally.

Type Three

So, for Threes, I want to encourage y'all to take maybe 30 minutes, because I think that's as much as they'll be able to hang with, challenge me if you think I'm wrong. Take about 30 minutes and do a mindful walk. You're not allowed to bring an iPod; you're not allowed to bring a Kindle. You're not allowed to bring anything productive, no podcasts, nothing. No music. I want you to just look around and try to be present, orient yourself to what you see, hear, smell, and feel during that 30-minute walk. Be present and notice what's in the present. Then Notice how hard that is, if it's hard for you.

Nikhil: I like that. Mindful walks are really, really helpful.

Melinda: Yeah. I think that's a helpful awareness tool for Threes specifically.

Type Four

For our Fours, and this is going to be a hard one, but I want them to start a small list of heart centered gratitude. I want them to keep a gratitude journal, like two or three things they're grateful for every day for a week. It doesn't have to take long, two to three minutes, but try to actively journal about what's good. Like two or three bullet points about what's good about you or what's good about your life right now.

It's going to feel very hard to actively notice what's good about especially yourself, but also the life you're in. This isn't to suppress or deny feelings, but it's actually to round out emotional experience for a Four. For them to notice how often they focus on suffering and how they need to work that muscle of rounding out their emotional experience to what's good and noticing what we call their golden shadow, which is the good things about them that tends to be in their blind spot. That's my challenge for Fours.

Nikhil: These are some great challenges, and we would love for the audience out there to come back next week in the comment section, or as the week's going on, let us know how these challenges are going for you. There is a lot of strength in community and to know that we're all doing this together and kind of like your own soul tribe that hey, change isn't easy. Growth is not easy, but it doesn't have to be done alone. The most important thing to understand is that we're all in this together. We're not meant to be doing everything in life by ourselves. That’s what's great about having a community, and a community of likeminded individuals.

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About Dr. Nikhil Sharma & AlignUs

I’m Dr. Nikhil Sharma, founder of AlignUs and for the last 10 years I had dedicated my life to working with patients with liver failure due to alcohol or obesity, who suffer from addictions and was a part of their rehabilitation process and helping them to get to a new liver and a second chance at life. During that period, I thought to myself, what if we could prevent people from suffering major physical health issues by helping them heal from their traumas and improve their mental health?

So, I created AlignUs where our mission is to inspire a world of wellness and philanthropy through compassion, connection and competition.

AlignUs creates a high vibrational atmosphere that involves self-care, physical competition and charitable donations. AlignUs will revolutionize how we do philanthropy in this digital age, while making it fun and rewarding to help each other.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Working with Enneagram Clients in Therapy

I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Elizabeth Irias on the podcast Light Up The Couch. Beth and I talked about all nine Enneagram Types as well as how therapists can integrate the Enneagram into their practice.

Listen to the podcast or scroll down for the transcript.

My Start With The Enneagram

Beth: Hello to our listeners. My name is Beth Irias and today I am quite excited to be talking with Joanne Kim. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California, and she has a number of specializations but one of them is the use of the Enneagram. Not only just in therapy but the Enneagram as a tool for self-understanding and growth. I'm just stoked having this conversation with her.

Thank you so much for joining us, Joanne.

Joanne: Thank you for having me.

Beth: Before we dive into what I think is a very interesting topic, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself and how you came to have this specialization with the Enneagram.

Joanne: Unlike a lot of people recently who discovered the Enneagram through the Instagrams or Facebooks and all that stuff, I've actually discovered the Enneagram in my own associate practice. So as a therapist in supervision. I've heard it through the framework of talking about defense mechanisms and core motivations, core needs, fears, et cetera.

I've come in learning about the Enneagram at the heart of it as a resource to use for personal growth, for healing, to integrate quite well with our other therapy approaches.

I use a lot of Brainspotting and parts work and helping people who are big feelers but have grown up with a lot of emotional neglect or abuse, a lot of invisible traumas that people experience. Instead of making assumptions about what people's experiences are based on the life circumstances that they've been through, really going behind the scenes and understanding how they personally experienced it. That's been kind of the way that I've learned about the Enneagram.

At first, I had a lot of resistance to it because it sounded super hokey and I found out that part of it was some difficulties with typing, which I might describe more later.

Once I found out what my own type was I was like, “Holy crap, this is amazing! How can they know with such detail, the kinds of things that I've never told anybody? There must be a lot more to this.”

That's how I came to discover the Enneagram.

The History of the Enneagram

Beth: Very interesting.

This topic is a very interesting one, and as you and I have discussed having this conversation, this overlap about the Enneagram and psychotherapy, and even my consideration and our board's consideration about the Enneagram really as a cultural element.

It first came to my attention almost a decade ago. Then a number of years ago a friend of mine said, “Do you know what your Enneagram type is?”

I said, “No, I don't. I don't know.”

He said, “I really want to understand that part of you.”

I realized that it was this language that he was speaking that I didn't know.

My curiosity of like, what is this language? Then with social media, more conversation about the Enneagram and more exposure to it. Now you can Google it and come up with podcasts and books and courses and all of these resources that didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago. It's now become kind of this cultural phenomenon, and I think that's part of why it's important to have this conversation so that therapists who are hearing it from their clients understand the framework and the language. So that we're not doing this kind of, “I'm sorry, what?” To kind of get the 101.

With that in mind, why don't we start by you giving us the quick and dirty history about the Enneagram, where it comes from, what we need to know about it. Obviously, there's much more than we can cover in an hour, but get us started and set the scene as you and I jump into this conversation about how it intersects with psychotherapy.

Joanne: First off, I'll say I don't know if anyone can ever find out who created the Enneagram. A lot of the value that the Enneagram gives us, we've seen glimpses of it throughout history in various traditions all across the world. It's been used as a spiritual or personal development framework but passed on mostly through oral tradition across different sects or with teachers with their students, et cetera.

The way that we know the Enneagram today is based on it having been written down since the 1970s and on. In Berkeley, because Berkeley students do what they do best, they go against their teacher's instructions in not writing down about the Enneagram because the teachers knew just how powerful this would be as a framework to do good or to do harm.

Students wrote it down anyway, and from the 70s and on, all the things that we read about, even like books, social media, etc. Anything that's basically written in English probably has been from that point on. So, it seems like it's a recent phenomenon, but it's actually been around for thousands of years.

We see hints of it woven throughout even the ancient traditions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam. If you think about the seven deadly sins like lust or pride, et cetera, and you tack on two more, those nine passions or deadly sins overlap exactly with the Nine Enneagram Types. We can try to find out who discovered the Enneagram but at this point I'm kind of thinking, does it really matter? There has been so much confirmation that these principles have been very helpful for people's personal development.

From then and on the people who introduced the Enneagram to the United States more formally would be Claudio Naranjo, who is an American trained psychiatrist who studied under Oscar Ichazo, one of the big spiritual personal development leaders in South America.

Claudio Naranjo brought it to the States and that's kind of where we see the Enneagram of Personality. The framework that we see today is from that point on. From him there are lots of teachers who've taken that on, including in Palo Alto, we have our local Dr. David Daniels, who recently passed, who was a trained psychiatrist, who was also on the faculty for Stanford's Department of Psychiatry. He is actually a trained therapist and Claudio Naranjo also was the successor to Fritz Perls. He's actually been trained a lot with integrating the Enneagram and therapy for personal development.

My own teacher, Beatrice Chestnut, is one of David Daniel’s pupils or one of his successors as well.

That's how I've come to learn the Enneagram.

I've come from this lineage of having seen the Enneagram through the lens of integration with personal development and psychology.

The Enneagram that you might see on social media has probably been a spinoff of what got sparked in the 1970s because it's fun. It's quick. It's easy. It makes for a quick cocktail party conversation. But I would say that there's a huge difference, maybe even a contrast, of what the Enneagram is meant to be used for versus what how it's generally used or seen nowadays. How it's generally seen nowadays is, “Let's find out what your type is. Therefore, I can stereotype you, put you in a box. And this is why you tend to do the things you do.”

That goes the opposite direction of what it was originally meant for, which is to say that the Enneagram describes the ways that we've put ourselves in a box. And I've lived in a box that we don't even know that the box exists. We need to find out what our box is so that we can grow beyond it.

There are two different branches that go in opposite directions. And that's probably the main warning I would give to people who are learning about the Enneagram. Are you learning from a source that says this is who you are and this is all of who you are? Or are you reading about the Enneagram saying this is how you've been stuck this entire time and how you can grow beyond it?

Beth: That's really interesting.

For you, it's recognizing the potential for misuse. And I could see, “Well, I do this because I'm a type two, and that's just who I am.” And you're saying that's the misuse of it versus the conceptualization of, “This is this habit I learned, this pattern that I've gotten into, and the things that I'm working on for my personal growth.”

Joanne: Yes, absolutely. We see in couples with conflicts, both of them doubling down on their respective perceptions or patterns, not knowing that a whole other way of interpreting a situation exists. And unless each participant recognizes that the ways that they specifically are feeding into this chaotic feedback loop, they're not going to be able to make much headway.

Beth: Very interesting. You're saying that, in fact, the Enneagram has 50 years of history in abuse by psychological professionals, if you will, whether that's psychiatry or therapy.

Why is it that we as therapists haven't been talking about this more?

Joanne: Because it sounds very “woo woo”. Because the Western world, since the Enlightenment period, puts a heavy emphasis on what's visible, “objective”, what's measurable.

It's my personal opinion that science is operating off of its own confirmation biases, picking and choosing whichever data points it finds valid according to what it knows how to use. And then tossing out the rest.

Even within the other cultural pockets of society, there are certain elements that can't quite be measured objectively, like microaggressions. But it's important for people to learn about it because these are the realities for a good number of our clients. There are tons of things about the human experience that can't quite be measured or written down or described. It's kind of more of an intuitive or instinctual experience.

I work with a lot of people who've grown up with emotional neglect. One of the key experiences to describe what they tend to go through is alexithymia, which means the inability to put into words what their emotional experience is. It's these terms like alexithymia that has come up in describing the absence of something that's very amorphous and vague.

I don't know if a lot of scientific research approaches are geared towards validating those experiences. So it's easy for those who have a lot of experience in academia to dismiss a lot of what the Enneagram has to offer because it's talking about the use of intuition and energy and gut types. It can sometimes sound very religiousy, sometimes it can sound very spiritual. It’s kind of tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Beth: It's interesting. I'm sure you've given this a great deal of thought before. Here we are using things like the MMPI which has been updated through time, and I had the opportunity not too long ago to see not the most recent revision of the MMPI, but the version before. I was reading it and looking at the questions and going, “Oh my gosh, this is so culturally unaware.”

There were so many questions in it that were just loaded and you could read it and essentially know who wrote the question and what they were trying to evaluate about you and what your difference was from the person who wrote that question. Particularly as it related to any kind of marginalization or societal way that one “should be”.

How do you bring together those concepts.

Here you have the Enneagram based in thousands of years of oral and now written tradition. Then you have things that are actually relatively new on the scene, like the MMPI, but are coming at personality historically from a very Eurocentric, white male, cis, heteronormative perspective.

How do you bring together those ideas because they're so different?

Joanne: I would say it's to recognize that our culture itself has a bias and that we're not in a vacuum. Even the things that we learn about in grad school have been filtered through systemic biases and preferences about which things are considered valid and whatever isn't.

Interesting you bring up the MMPI. I had to take the MMPI as part of my graduate school application process and the clinical director at the time sat me down for our interview and said, “Your MMPI is showing that you have Paranoid Schizophrenia? What is that?”

Granted, I went to a Christian graduate school, so there was an opening for the spirituality piece, and that there's a need to translate some things over into science.

I was like, “Yeah, because I'm a very innovative and visual person. So, I see things, not like literally as if the object is there, but that's kind of how I internally process things.”

She was like, “Oh, okay. That makes sense.” Because coming from a charismatic church background.

Since then I knew that yes, some of these questionnaires and inventories are super helpful. But the authors of these inventories, they themselves are introducing their own personal biases. So I don't put absolute weight into these scientifically validated frameworks. But I also make room that there are some things in the human experience that cannot be written on paper. It would be arrogant for us as finite, limited, human beings to assume that we know all of reality when science is constantly inventing itself anyway.

In terms of the Enneagram, just allowing for that openness that we might not have all the answers, and maybe that's okay, allows for a much richer experience. We don't have to, like a certain way according to what science prescribes. We don't have to box our clients in either in dismissing them as having some mental disorder when it actually might be a very personal and culturally specific experience.

Nine Enneagram Types

Beth: Thank you for going over in that little jaunt with me. Just because it is interesting how some of these things are considered valid and some are not. Yet these conversations are happening just as you and I are having it right now. Where it's like, let's look at this as a tool that is used to understand the human experience and a framework for us, I'm going to use very specific language here, to work toward enlightenment, individuation, growth, whatever the wording is, of what any of us are doing when we're sitting on a couch trying to do something in psychotherapy.

Now that we have a little bit of understanding of the history of the Enneagram and its origins, tell me about the nine Types, knowing again that there is a lot here and there's no way that you can cover it all. Give us kind of an overview of these nine Types. How they came to be. You've already introduced some language, but just to understand what the language is around the Enneagram and how it's conceptualizing personality.

Joanne: Sometimes knowing the nine Types helps and sometimes it doesn't help. We're not trying to find out what the nine Types are so that we can reinforce our own autopilot tendencies.

All of the nine Types are archetypes of the universal human experience. So, when a person reads the description of the nine Types, they're like, “Oh, yeah, that sounds like me. And that sounds like me.” Yeah, because they're supposed to describe people's experiences in general. It's just that the nine Types are the ways that each person gets stuck thinking that that experience is everything that life has to offer to them. We're trying to find out what our Type is so that we can grow beyond that Type and into integrate the rest of the eight. I'll start there.

The nine Types, what the Enneagram symbol is, if you look it up on Google, it's a circle with a bunch of triangles and angles inside. If you think about the nine Types as starting from Type Nine down to Type One. If you go in that order, it does overlap with the general human development process.

I'm going to start with Type Nine and I'm going to go around to Type One.

Enneagram Nine
The Harmonizer

Type Nine is known as a Peacemaker or Mediator. The main theme is around fusion. Kind of like a baby in the womb merged with mama. There's no distinct sense of self. It is about union. It's about being together. So when the baby is in the womb, baby cannot tell the difference between themselves and mom. There is no other because there's just one.

Type Nine, that archetype describes that experience, but a person who's Type Nine lives all of life as if that's what's supposed to be the case. There's this merging experience that happens where, let's say, a person who's Type Nine sits in front of another person, they might not be able to tell who's who. So, someone else asked them a question and they reflect back with, “Well, what do you want to do? Or how do you want to be?”

There's this blurring of individuality. There's a core resistance against being one distinct self. Being one's own distinct self. Generally, Nines have a hard time with making decisions, narrow things down with pursuing and even pushing forth their own agenda. They tend to go with the flow because it's more comfortable, it's easier, it doesn't involve energy, and there's this very chill nature about them.

Social media's version or description of Type Nine is they're the peacemakers. They're the ones that go with the flow. They're the ones that are super easy to get along with. And that's not untrue, but what's really going on behind the scenes is the deadly sin of Type Nine, which is sloth. That experience speaks to a person's ability to fall asleep to oneself.

The main defense mechanism of Type Nine is narcotization. Anything that involves them disconnecting with themselves. It might be through eating or watching TV or whatever, but can also be merging with one's own routines. Having the same routine every single day, so that they don't have to make the decision about what to wear differently. Or merging with another person in absorbing their own agendas to make things flow easier.

They tend to be very conflict resistant. So, part of their growth work is to recognize that they are a distinct self. To find out who they are. Find out what they want. Find out what their agendas are, and actually to summon that on purpose, which goes opposite of the peacemaker framework.

They start causing conflict. They start causing problems. Nines think that's like a death sentence, but in actuality, they've had a sense of self this entire time. The proof of that is resentment. They tend to actually push back against other people opposing their agenda.

Beth: I know you have eight more to go through, a question I have just as I'm trying to conceptualize and understand the Nine Types. How do they function over a lifespan? From an adaptive standpoint, what does it mean if somebody came into the world and they tend to approach things like a Nine and let’s just say suddenly they act more like a Four. Is that considered adaptation or are we basically trying to, again stealing language from other models, if our goal is to individuate and have a healthy, whatever healthy is, whoever's describing that, between self and other past, present, future. Are we moving flexibly between these Nine Types and then would be able to see, “I did a little bit more of this over here. And then this thing happened and I did a little bit more of that. And now I see myself kind of not one of the types.”

Joanne: That would come with self-awareness.

I will say up front that a person's likely going to be their Type throughout their whole lives. There's no way to change one's Type. However, how rigid and how stubborn the Type shows up, that can change with personal work.

For the Type Nine, in some moments, they might be summoned to respond in a very Type Three way, in terms of self-promoting themselves. Or in Type 8, in imposing their own agendas, even going against other people, breaching other people's boundaries, instead of making themselves easy and accommodating other people at their own expense.

They will still be a Nine, but in doing their personal work at the extreme, once a person has actually gone towards, I don't know how else to say it, but to say enlightenment, a person who's Type Nine, who's typically known to be the person with the least amount of energy out of all nine Types will actually be the person with the greatest amount of energy in what we call their essence.

There's essence and then there's ego. Essence is what we're born with, how we come into the world, but life happens and so our ego kicks in to protect ourselves. This very ego structure is like a cage. When a bird is small, it helps protect the bird from the outside. At some point, the bird outgrows the cage, and the walls of the cage start cutting into its wings. And that applies to all nine Types. They just, they just have different cages.

Beth: Very interesting. Thank you.

Type Nine, Peacemaker, of the seven deadly sins most associated with a capacity for sloth.

Tell me about Type Eight.

Enneagram Eight
The Challenger

Joanne: Type Eight is the opposite of Type Nine in a lot of ways.

Unlike Type Nine, which is very chill, go with the flow, let's go for whatever's the easiest. Eight is like let me cause stuff. Let me make things happen. It's called The Challenger or sometimes known as The Boss.

Think about a baby, who's really young, but not quite yet ready to walk. They just want things. Boss baby, king baby, like everything the baby wants, the baby will have. Eights tend to live in the world like that in that whatever their instincts or whatever desire, they move straight towards making that happen. Even though there are lots of reasons why a person maybe shouldn't go according to their impulses and desire. The deadly sin of Type Eight is lust, and I don't mean in the sexual sense per se, though that is included. It's like insatiability, needing to fulfill their desires. Even if it goes against other people or against rules, etc.

Eights tend to disrupt things, Nines tend to like to go with the flow. They are extreme opposites.

Type Eight core fear that, by the way, all the core fears the nine Types don't really know that they have. The fear still drives a person, but it's operating in the unconscious, subconscious level. Eights tend to show up with big energy and they tend to go against other people because there's this core fear behind the scenes that says, “I need to make sure that I am not vulnerable.”

They end up becoming very strong, not to be strong per se. They don't necessarily need to be the boss, but they don't want someone else telling them what to do. They don't want to be vulnerable or at the risk of being hurt. Eights are generally those who think that their perception of reality is the ultimate reality, the capital T truth.

Often Eights won't really come into therapy unless they're dragged into a couples session. Because they've steamrolled other people. There's also a lot of projection that happens with each Type and what the Type Eight projects out is vulnerability.  They see themselves as more powerful, more strong than they actually are, invincible even. Like a person being able to walk in front of cars and thinking that the cars are just going to stop.

What they outsource is vulnerability, so they see other people as weaker than other people actually are. A lot of the Type Eights work is to reconcile that picture. Recognizing, my own version of reality is my own version of reality, but it's not the ultimate reality. Other people's experiences actually also exist.

So let me get to know what my partner's experience is instead of steamrolling over them. That is a lot of the Type Eight struggle.

The growth for Type Eights, when they've really done their work, they actually become the exact opposite. Instead of lust and fulfilling their own cravings and desires, they move towards what's called innocence.

It's like they're a young baby that's very tender, very vulnerable, very soft, and, they can access a very nurtured side of them, not just being the ones to protect and advocate on behalf of other people.

Beth: Very interesting. As you're talking about it, I can already almost start to see a shuffling of the DSM in relation to what we're talking about.

I'm sure that that would be a whole separate conversation for another time, but even just going through Type Nine and Type Eight, I can see that I would imagine that this personality type would have a propensity toward anxiety disorders. This personality type may be more prone toward codependence.

Joanne: Let me insert here, I was going to bring it up later, but heads up eight out of the nine Types in their extreme sense overlap with eight or nine of the personality disorders in the DSM. The one Type that's not described is Type Three, because we happen to be in a very Type Three culture, and that is in our shadow.

Beth: That's very interesting.

So you're saying because we've basically determined that Type Three is the most culturally acceptable?

Joanne: It's not standard.

Beth: Interesting. Okay, keep going. I want to get through Type Seven so I get to Type Three. Go.

Enneagram Seven
The Enthusiast

Joanne: Let me just say the main defense mechanism of Type Eight first, just because I mentioned Type Nine is narcotization, Type Eight's defense mechanism or main one is denial. They deny reality. Their reality is the ultimate reality.

Type Seven is the little kiddo who's finally been able to crawl and walk and so the world is their oyster and they're going about and experiencing all the fun things in life. Pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain and that is the Type Seven’s motto.

It's about experiencing all kinds of things in life and not being limited. So, a toddler starts crying when parents say, “No”, and the toddler just wants to somehow make their way around these restrictions and limits that authority figures set.

The person who has a Type Seven autopilot tends to see the positive things in life and ignore the negatives. Really as a way of avoiding the fear of being trapped and being trapped in pain, specifically.

The person who's Type Seven on the surface, they're very fun, very exciting, they're very lively. Really the heart of a lot of parties. However, the people who are most driven crazy by a person who's Seven is often their partners or the parents because they underly take responsibility for their actions. They're always seeking the fun thing and trying to avoid anything that seems uncomfortable or boring, mundane, et cetera.

The defense mechanism of Type Seven is rationalization. They're very good at charming other people and talking themselves out of being limited.

How a Seven often shows up in work, because they have this very tense relationship with authority figures, they tend to smooth that out by befriending authority figures. When they are interacting with a boss, they somehow try to find a chummy way of getting around doing their responsibilities because they don't like being told what to do. When it comes to their own subordinates, they tend to collapse the authority hierarchy and befringe those who are also under their authority, because to be an authority or to be under someone else's authority is very limiting. Limit is like the kryptonite of Type Seven.

The deadly sin of Type Seven is gluttony. It's about having a little bit of everything. And naturally that would lead a person to not want to make a commitment, not want to make decisions. Because what if there's something else that comes up that seems more exciting or fun?

They are super strongly driven by FOMO. Not wanting to make decisions because making decisions gives them the impression that they're going to be stuck and trapped in that. When a Seven has done a lot of work, they reach what's called sobriety, which is the opposite of their deadly sin of gluttony. It’s to be very honest with themselves and about their limitations and how that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's knowing that life is to be engaged by seeing reality for what it is, not what they would like to see it as.

A person who's really done a lot of their work as a Seven becomes very chill, very grounded, very anchored. Compared to their egoed counterpart, which is bouncing from one thing to the next. So that will be a Type Seven.

Beth: Again, I can hear things line up in my mind about certain personality types and if we were going to put somebody in a diagnostic box where you can see there's a vulnerability, if you will.

Type Six, tell me.

Enneagram Six
The Questioner

Joanne: Type six is the kiddo who has grown up enough, is now ready to go to school and all of a sudden has stranger danger and separation anxiety. This is a kid who has explored the world and has found out there's actually very painful things or scary things involved. “There's something that's looming over the surface. I don't really know exactly what it is.” It's the kid that is spinning in a lot of anxiety of not what is, but what things could be, towards the negative.

Sevens and Sixes are the opposite. Sevens think of what things could be towards the positive. Sixes are what things could be towards the negative. The worst case scenario. Sometimes they are called The Questioners or The Loyalists. The main central theme for Sixes is safety, trust, security. The way that that plays out is they're very mental. They have this big mind map of all the things that could possibly go wrong to then prepare for every single scenario.

If you have a Six on your team, they're the best person to troubleshoot things with because they can anticipate when a product is going to go wrong so that you can find out how to bypass it up front.

Sevens are usually like, “That's fine. It'll be fine. We'll figure it out as we go.” Sixes tend to do a lot of that mental churning up front so much so that they get stuck in analysis paralysis. They shut down. With all the nine Types it could be a love or hate relationship in being partners or working with them.

Sixes way of doing so is to ask a bunch of questions like, “Well, what if this goes wrong, what if that goes wrong?” Often, they're labeled as being very negative. But their intention, at least on the surface, is to make sure that they're safe and that everyone's okay.

In terms of relationship with authority figures, since Sixes tend to see authority figures as all good or all bad, their main defense mechanism is projection. They project out their strengths to bring about safety to other authority figures. Either authority figures are the person to give them security and safety, so they align with them, or they follow the rules, or this is called the Counter Type Six, they go against the authority figure.

There's a fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Some of the Sixes take one of those approaches. Instead of them owning their own authority and saying, I can bring about my own safety and security, they tend to project that outwards and then cower in fear. And that fear is what drives them forward.

If you were to associate Type Six with a personality disorder and the DSM measures a lot of dependent personality disorders, maybe.

Beth: Is there a Seven Deadly Sin type associated with Type Six?

Joanne: Type Six and Type Three are the ones where you add the two. So, it's not part of the Seven Deadly Sins, it's part of the nine. The deadly sin that's been added in is cowardice. The opposite of that deadly sin is courage.

Ironically, Sixes in ego are known as the most fearful types. But when a person who's Type Six has really done their work, they can be more courageous than anyone.

Enneagram Five
The Observer

Type 5 are known as The Observers. They tend to be the ones who experience life through observing from afar. I like describing them as living in fortresses where they're very boundary from the rest of the world, and they live up in their ivory tower overlooking everything.

These are the people, at an extreme, who tend to not really be connected with the rest of the world. They tend to be more detached, and that is the main defense mechanism, detachment. Instead of being in the world, they look at the world.

Fives are likely to be one of the people who come to therapy because they're dragged into therapy for family therapy or couple's counseling.

They tend to assume that the solution to life is to have more knowledge. They tend to overly rely on the intellect, etc. But compared to Sevens and Sixes, Sevens lean more towards positive data. Sixes lean towards more negative data. Fives see data as more neutral. But, they do so by overly relying on their head and then cutting off their connection to their heart center.

Emotions are really difficult for those who are Fives. The personality disorder might be schizoid personality disorder. That's part of their difficulty in that in this Western world that places so much emphasis on rational and intellectualization, Fives are seen as the golden standard in some ways. People don't know that they too are operating out of very reactive patterns because those patterns happen to be what people think is the way to go.

This is also all the more of the case where I am. I'm in the Silicon Valley. Lots of techie people, lots of engineers, but who tend to experience the most stress in their personal relationships because they've closed off their emotion center. They justify that thinking that they need to be the rational one and the partner is the irrational, emotional, sensitive one.

The Deadly Sin of Type Five is called avarice. Sometimes it's known as greed, but it's not greed like hoarding. It's avarice like squeezing and extinguishing out life and living from a scarcity mindset.

It's like, I only have this much energy to start off the day. And because I only start off with 20% battery life, I need to upfront decide how much percent I'm going to allocate to each activity in my day ahead and live with a sense of constriction. So, partners are frustrated because they're like, “Dude, you have more than enough energy to go with.” But, Fives like, “No, I only have this much and I need to make sure to be very careful and stingy with my resources because everyone else is a threat. Everyone else is trying to take my resources from me.”

Beth: I'm guessing if a Five has done their work and understands their Type and then work in the flexibility, then it's more of a standpoint of abundance, like less scarcity, more abundance, more generosity.

Joanne: The virtue of Type Five, where they go when they've done a lot of their work is nonattachment. Not being attached to their resources but recognizing that they are connected with the rest of the world, fully not just from a distance with their head. They're connected with all the ample resources that are in life. So, they don't need to be attached to anything. They can let things move very smoothly because compared to other types Fives are probably the most boundaried one.

And we think that boundaries are good, but in this case, they've done it way too much. So, they need to learn how to loosen up and let people come in and let themselves go out of the fortress.

Beth: The more you talk about this, the more I can hear the overlap with other methods in psychology. That it's like the development of distress tolerance or where's wise mind. It's like I can hear the language start to bubble up and kind of overlap with these things.

Joanne: I hope that when people really connect or explore the Enneagram, that they would come to those conclusions themselves, instead of hearing from someone else. “Oh, yeah, the Enneagram is like the best or it integrates well with psychology.” and then resisting against it.

Beth: It's an interesting consideration, going back to what you said at the beginning, kind of the misuse of the model to walk around the world and say, “You fit in this category and therefore I can basically use that information strategically to control.” Which would probably be its own Type the propensity to do so.

Joanne: I would say in a lot of governing agencies there will probably be more of an emphasis on Types One, Three, and Five. Those are known as the Competency Types and they ignore the other aspects that the other types tend to emphasize.

So, Type Five would be the kid who has recognized that the world is not a very trustworthy place to pass Type Six and then it's like, “Oh I can be my own safety. I just need to learn more things. I just need to know how to do more things.”

Fives are born into the world with that framework and assume that that's the only way to live life. Then they get boggled when it comes to their personal relationships because they can't figure out feelings. And they get super triggered. They double down. So, they reemphasize, “Oh, you're just being irrational. I'm the one who's making a lot of sense here.”

Beth: Interesting. So with Fives it's about finding balance instead of living so strongly in logic and rationality. It's finding balance.

Joanne: We're recognizing that there are lots of things in life that are also rational and have their own rules. Like feelings have their own rules. Fives have determined themselves as the authority in dictating what is good knowledge and bad knowledge.

Beth: That's valid. Interesting. Okay, Type Four.

Enneagram Four
The Individualists

Joanne: Type Fours are the moody, angsty teenagers who are super self-conscious. Like in middle school, when the body's changing, a lot of things are fluctuating, lots of hormones raging. The attention goes towards themselves as an individual, towards shame. Their thinking, “Oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? There’s all these things changing. I have so many feelings on the inside. Other people seem to be doing okay, but I'm swirling on the inside here and everyone seems to be getting along really well with each other. But I feel like I'm the outsider.”

Type Four is sometimes known as The Romantics, I like calling them The Individualists because not every Four has a romantic bent to them. It's more of like The Tragic Artists. Everything is really hard for them, but is really good for everyone else.

The Deadly Sin of Type Four is envy. And I don't mean envy like wanting what someone else has. It's thinking something good in me is missing from me. I don't know what it is, but it's as if something is missing in me. It's out there somewhere. I need to go find it. Anything that's super close right in front of the person, they get bored by, it loses its luster. Anything that's far away is super shiny.

The Four is like a horse with a carrot dangling in front of it. It might actually catch the carrot, but then it's not satisfied, thinking it needs to have another carrot to chase. It's addicted to the chase and it resists being satisfied. So that would be the Type Four mechanism. Hence, Fours are known to be very moody, very emotional. There's always something wrong, woe is me and whatever.

They tend to have a loud emphasis on the theme of suffering, that they are the suffering ones. It's as if Fours and Fives are super existential Types, the rest of the nine need to learn how to be more like Fours and Fives in considering the meaning of life. Fours and Fives overly do that. They need to learn how to be in normal everyday life.

Fours tend to be very philosophical, focusing on the meaning of, who am I? Is there any purpose to what I do? Do I matter? Their ego drives them to try to make themselves distinct, or unique, or special, or whatever. It’s as if, if I'm not special, it’s as if I was never here.

I will say therapy is built for Fours. It's a Four’s playground. Because a lot of therapy is about, “Go out, go inward, know yourself better. Find out what happened in your past about why you are the way you are right now. You just need more insight and to connect with your emotions.” All that stuff Fours can do outside of therapy for free. So, Fours can come into therapy thinking, “Maybe this thing will help me.” Only to find out the therapist thinks that the client is the best client ever because they're already doing what the therapist wants them to do. Then the Four’s ego structure is only reinforced.

Fours need to learn how to not do that, and therapists need to recognize that this field has a bent towards Fours and recognize that the reason why Fours are in suffering is not always because of some trauma that happened in the past. It's sometimes because of the person's own making.

The Four has identified themselves with their own suffering as if this is my trauma therefore, this is who I am. These are my feelings. Therefore this is who I am. That is not the case. Therapy tends to emphasize or tends to want to help people move in that direction. So, with every other Type therapists need to learn how to help people connect with the Four-ish way of living because we all underdo the other nine Types. But, Fours overdo that, so they need to have something different. They need to have more of a coaching style, more action oriented, more focusing on the present, on how things are good. How they have things that are readily available instead of thinking that it's out there somewhere.

Beth: Really interesting. And what's the Sin associated with Four?

Joanne: Envy.

The opposite of the envy passion would be equanimity. Which basically means a person recognizes that they have feelings but they aren't their feelings. It's seeing emotions in a very neutral sense, not picking and choosing negative ones to over identify themselves with and then ignoring all the positive things of life.

Fours and Sevens can be opposites in a lot of ways.

Beth: Really interesting.

Okay, Threes. You've referenced Threes repeatedly. Now I want to hear about Threes.

Enneagram Three
The Performers

Joanne: Threes are sometimes known as The Performers or The Achievers. They're the ones who overidentify with their image and the image they project out into the rest of the world.

Threes and Fours are opposites. Fours identify with one's own shadow, what's not so great about a person. Threes tend to identify with what's good about a person. But not good in like morally, objectively good, good in the eyes of other people. Threes tend to identify with the image of success in other people's eyes.

Their Deadly Sin, which is not part of the seven, this is the one that's been added in, is self-deceit. Like, Harry Potter, the metaphor that comes up is a Boggart, a shapeshifter, the one who keeps shifting its form based on whoever it's in front of in the moment. That is what Threes do reflexively without even knowing. So much so that they’ve forgotten who they actually are and what really matters to them.

Threes are very much rewarded for being the image of success because they get things done and everyone thinks that they're having an easy time. Because of that reinforcement, especially in this culture, and again, I'm in the Silicon Valley, so there's a lot of Threes in this environment who somehow know how to convert even a failure into success to the point where they don't get in touch with their own emotions. Often it's frustrating for those who are in relationships with Threes because of that shape shifting nature. Because they themselves don't know, because of self-deceit, that they've gotten disconnected with themselves.

When a Three has really done their work, the opposite of self-deceit is veracity, which means a person is their true self and not some image that they put out into the rest of the world. In living out veracity, it means that a person might disappoint other people because they're living out their truth.

Beth: Interesting.

 So, Type Three is really the chameleon. And to go off what you've said before, Type Three is the one that's most culturally sanctioned.

Joanne: The United States, in the eyes of the rest of the world, is very image focused. It's all about looking good or being successful and then looking good while being successful.

Anything that stirs up shame or how it's failed, the United States doubles down. It's like, “No, we're not. The rest of you are bad.” Three-ish, Eight-ish elements in this culture.

Beth: I was thinking about that kind of overlap when you were saying it.

One of my questions, and I'm just going to ask it now, knowing that we still have a few more types. What about folks who are listening to you introducing this idea of Enneagram, they're not familiar with it before. And we'll get to the last two, but they're listening and they're going, I'm none of those.

What does that mean?

Joanne: It could mean a bunch of things. I can go in a bunch of different directions but, I'll say this. There are nine Types that are universal archetypes of the human experience.

However, each of the nine Types have three versions, according to a dominant instinct. And when I say dominant instinct, this is the stuff that lives in our lizard brain. Anything that in our primal stressed state moves us towards survival through one of three approaches, self-preservation, social, or sexual. These are the three instincts involved. And I can describe each of those instincts a little bit more later. What that means is that there are nine Types about the why people do what they do. Then there are the instincts that show people how they do the why of what they do.

When you combine these two together, this is called the subtype. Nine times three, there are 27 subtypes in all. One of the subtypes per line is called the Counter Type, which is the type that goes the opposite direction of what I just described.

Just to give you an example, I happen to be a Counter Type. I am a Type Four, but I am a self-preservation Four. So anything that I just described about the Four, I've described some of what Fours are known for. Self-pressed Fours tend to resonate with the behind the scenes motivations, but how that shows up, it goes the opposite direction.

Fours are known to be very overly emotional, dramatic, like they pull everyone into their mess and all that kind of stuff. Those are really describing the other two kinds of Fours. The Counter Type of Type Four, like myself, you wouldn't be able to tell that I'm a Four on the outside.

This is one of the main difficulties with using the Enneagram in that people have a harder time finding out their type because, unlike Strengths Finders or Myers Briggs, you can't just take a test. A test tends to focus on what people do, less so the why. The why really depends on the person's self-awareness, whether they've done their work, whether they know what's in their blind spots, etc.

Beth: I appreciate that explanation. I think that's a really helpful way to describe it.

Okay. Two and One go!

Enneagram Two
The Befrienders

Two sometimes they’re call The Givers. I like calling them The Befrienders because their main objective in life is to be loved. Out of all nine Types, these are the ones that are the most obsessed about relationships, all things relationships. But it's connecting with another person by becoming what the other person wants and needs.

Twos are also shapeshifters, but Threes tend to shapeshift towards the image of success. Twos shapeshift towards what they think the other person wants and needs. I would say that Twos are often the Types that are described the least accurately when we read about the Enneagram because Twos are very disconnected from themselves.

They don't even know that they're doing this. They disconnect with themselves to be so outwardly focused on other people to shapeshift into what the other person wants and needs.

Whereas Fours are the opposite. Fours are very connected to their inner world and they kind of ignore everyone else, like teenagers. Fours need to learn how to be more outward and consider the experiences of other people.

Twos tend to overly do that and they have difficulty connecting with themselves. You ask someone who's Type Two, “What do you need or what do you want?” It's like they go into brain glitch. It feels like they're fumbling through a very, very dark room inside.

We often think of Twos according to what they do for other people, hence they're known as The Givers, The Helpers, The Servants, etc. That is a very shallow understanding of Type Two. What's really going on is, and why I call them The Befrienders, they connect with someone so that they get something in return. This part is what Twos are often unaware of. Any Two that's listening to this will have a very visceral, allergic reaction. They're going to want to throw up.

The Deadly Sin of Type Two is pride. And it's not pride as in, “I'm being very obviously better than other people.” It's the very quiet version of, “I know what you need more than you know what you need, and I'm going to be that.” But they hate finding out what they need because in order for them to have needs means that they are unlovable. Which goes against everything that they want to happen.

You'll find a lot of therapists who are Twos, but they really get their own needs met indirectly and they don't even know that they're doing it. Often they tend to have a hard time spending time in solitude with themselves. It's like a death sentence to them. If you tell them that they really need to get in touch with themselves, they're like, I don't even know what that means.

The main defense mechanism of Type Two is repression. They repress their own needs and they repress their own emotions because to have either of those things makes one less lovable.

This is the, the kid who's grown up in the family who to be loved, they've become what everyone else wanted at the expense of their own experiences. Similar to Type Nine in a lot of ways, but Nines disconnect from themselves so that they don't have to spend energy. Twos do so to be loved and all heart types, Twos, Threes, and Fours tend to be very image conscious.

The main themes are around their relationships with other people. Nines can have that, in some ways, but it's still more about energy and the flow of energy. Like, I want to take the path of least resistance, independently of how they're seen by other people. Unless there's some conflict brewing, then they'll double down and they'll shut down.

Twos, it's about how they're seen. They swell up with pride when they find out that another person likes them, and then they're devastated when they find out another person doesn't like them.

Beth: Interesting. Okay, Type One.

Enneagram Ones
The Improvers

Joanne: Type One, I like calling them The Improvers. Other people call them The Perfectionists, but the reason why I resist against that definition is because not all Ones, because there are three versions of each type, not all Ones are very perfectionistic, and how the perfectionism shows up is very different per subtype.

Type One, I call them The Improvers because their main engine, their way of perceiving the world is that there's good and there's bad. Only the two. There's nothing in between. No shades of gray. And what's good is this lofty, ideal standard of perfection, that they sense that reality right now isn't there. So, in that gap between ideal and actual, they fill that gap with frustration. They're so irritable because their anger is a form of energy. Anger propels us towards making things happen, but Ones do so in a very slow and simmering resentful kind of way. Whereas Eights tend to be very outburst-y, and they make things happen with big action. Ones, I like calling Ones The Scalpel, whereas Eights are The Sledgehammer.

Ones tend to direct their improver energy in a very methodical, very precise way, but they're constantly doing so, so that they have a really hard time taking it easy. And allowing things to be and recognizing that how things are, yeah, it's imperfect, but imperfection isn't a bad thing. Ones feel as if you have to be perfect or else you're automatically bad and therefore unworthy.

A lot of people will experience Ones as being very critical and judgmental, and I wouldn't say that they aren't that, but that's not the point. The point isn't to be critical or judgmental. The point is that Ones are really trying to be good. So, they're very sincere in thinking that what they're saying is really to help another person or help improve things. Because of their assumption that there's always something that needs to be improved and them voicing it out, other people tend to take it very personally. So, a lot of relationship conflict between Ones and other people.

The Type One's Deadly Sin is Anger, sometimes called wrath. The definition or the term that my teachers say is, I think it's kind of like a Spanish version, it's called “ira”. So it's not like anger, like, “Oh, I'm so angry and like actually making that happen.” But it's like the slow and simmering version behind the scenes where no one really knows about it. It's seething.

The main defense mechanism of Type One is reaction formation. Meanding what a person presents on the outside is the opposite of what they really feel on the inside.

When Ones are really pissed off, you might actually see them smiling more. Because they also have a way of disconnecting from their own emotions and needs. Because they think that it's about making sure that the thing, the task happens, independently of how I think or feel about it, independently of how other people think or feel about it.

They tend to not be as focused on image, like the heart types do. They are more focused on this is the decision we made, this is how we're going to follow through with it, and we need to stick to our commitments. Ones can be overly rigid because they're living life needing to be the good kid.

The virtue of Type One would be serenity. Because the Type One engine is driving one towards assuming that they ought to have control over everything and restricting the flow of life. Serenity is, there's some things that you can control, do those things. There are some things you can't control, let them be. And finding out what's the difference between the two.

When Ones have done their work, they're very chill. And they're very easy and, enjoyable to be around because they've recognized that not everything needs to be changed. And yes, there are imperfections in life, but there's still a lot of beauty and a lot of good.

That'll be the nine Types in a nutshell.

The Enneagram & Psychotherapy

Beth: Your brain holds an incredible amount of material, and then I can hear how you kind of play within it to understand and put together or separate these different ideas. Thank you so much for that. I think it was so interesting and I want to listen again just to learn it inn the way that you just presented it.

Knowing that our conversation today: number one, we don't have too much time left and number two also is really just kind of scratching the surface, but introducing the Enneagram really as a cultural guidepost that could be used in psychotherapy. You and I had talked before we started recording about some of the pros and cons of the Enneagram and psychotherapy.

Can you speak to that a little bit before we end our conversation today?

Joanne: Yes. Though the Enneagram is a very powerful framework that can help people do their personal work at warp speed. It is not a good fit for every client because it involves a lot of deep personal work and it involves defense mechanisms and ego structures and all kinds of things that people are very viscerally resistant against.

So, the Enneagram is not good for when a client is in actual crisis. There are houses on fire. We need to put out those fires, not philosophize about why those fires came to speed. Not yet at least. You've put out the fire first and do some repair work. Once the dust has settled and the client recognizes, “Hey, there have been burning houses before. I wonder what that's about.” That might be a good time to introduce the Enneagram.

Because the nature of using the Enneagram involves ego structures. The client has to be open to observing themselves in a neutral way. Or at least entertaining the idea that maybe I made this happen. If they're very defensive and they're very rigid, it's probably not a good idea to introduce the Enneagram because that might spin off into, “The therapist is not understanding me, or they're telling me what to do, or they're just trying to find out what's wrong with me.” It can go sideways really quickly.

The way that I work in my practice is I market myself as an Enneagram Therapist. So, people who find me, a good number of them know about the Enneagram. It's a self-filtering process where they've heard about this. They resonated with it. They're wanting to grow using this approach specifically. I have a lot more leverage to be able to interweave the Enneagram, but that doesn't mean that the Enneagram can't be used in therapy. You just might not share with clients about what that is. But it can be very informational for you as a clinician in knowing what is going on behind the scenes for someone and being able to calibrate and attune to them.

For example, if I'm working with a person who's Type Two, who's very others referencing and has a lot of disconnection from themselves, who shapeshifts to be what they think the other person wants and needs. A person who's Type Two will come into therapy because they want to work on how to improve their relationships. So, I cannot just start off with saying, “You need to know your own internal experiences and your own traumas and stuff like that.”

They're going to be like, “This therapist doesn't get me at all.” And they're going to leave.

But a person who's Type Two, who has done some ego work will recognize, “I don't know why I keep finding myself in one sided relationships and I'd like to find out what it is about me, maybe, that is constantly putting me in these situations.” That would be a good time to integrate the Enneagram as a framework. Not saying that there's something wrong about that person. All of us have an autopilot, so it normalizes it. Different people have different autopilot structures, so it helps with self-awareness and putting words to things that were invisible so that the client can go back out into their week and observe, “This is what I heard in therapy about what Two’s tend to do. How about I pay attention to what goes on in my mind when I'm sitting in front of another person?” So the Enneagram can be very helpful in providing a very neutral, nonjudgmental way of focusing on specific key dynamics.

Whereas if I were working with someone who is Type Four where they're overly inside themselves, I might ask, “Did you remember what the other person said in this conversation?” So I might gently nudged them to go outside of themselves.

What I would recommend to each client would be the opposite, depending on what their type structure is. It's even if I never talk about the Enneagram with those clients, I might still be noticing how to gently nudge them to focus on certain things.

Beth: I imagine that therapists, even without the knowledge of Enneagram, are often doing that. We're just using different language to describe it.

For therapists who are listening that want to learn more about the Enneagram and improve their knowledge about how perspective clients might be seeing it or using it or their own utilization in psychotherapy. What do you recommend? Where do they go to do that?

Enneagram Resources

Buy on Amazon

Joanne: This is probably the number one book I recommend to everyone who wants to do personal growth, especially with the Enneagram. It's a book called “The Enneagram: Guide to Waking Up”. This is written by my Enneagram teachers, Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Paes.

Beatrice herself is a licensed therapist and she is one of the main people from whom I read up on all the behind the scenes defense mechanisms in her other book called “The Complete Enneagram”. That book is very hefty, but I think for clinicians it'd be super helpful of a read.

This book here, “The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up”, it's like a permanent shelfer as a quick manual guide in how each Type shows up, including the three instincts and the specific growth steps. For each Type, the chapter is about 20-25 pages long. Not too long.

If you want a more in depth perspective, “The Complete Enneagram”, will be great. This is what I recommend to clients, what I recommend to other therapists, because it captures things in a nutshell. Not what people do, but why they do the what they do in some concrete.

Beatrice and Uranio also have a podcast called Enneagram 2.0. It's fantastic. People who want to hear about how the Enneagram is supposed to be used, that will be a good place to begin as well.

For those therapists or helping professionals who really want to learn formally how to incorporate the Enneagram into your practice, I highly recommend the Professional Certification Track at Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy. They have the Professional Certification Track and the Personal Mastery Track. Both involve very experiential approaches to the Enneagram aside from just learning head knowledge about it. Because again, we are in a time in history where there's heavy emphasis on the intellect at the expense of other things. So heavy emphasis on the head center at the expense of the heart and the body center.

I highly recommend that you check out at least one of the workshops or retreats with CP Enneagram. It's like a five-day retreat. That's been very transformational for me. And it will give you all the downlow that you need.

---

What are the emotional habits of your Enneagram type?

Grab this free guide that highlights the patterns that keep you stuck and the next steps to grow beyond your type!

Don't know your Enneagram type? Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

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---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Why Self-Judgment Doesn't Help But Actually Keeps You Stuck

Judging Yourself: Understandable But Not Helpful

I came across this beautiful quote by Dr. James Rouse that summarizes why it's so important to not judge ourselves for having done what we said we wouldn't do, or not doing what we said we would do:

"We cannot shame ourselves into change, we can only love ourselves into evolution."

Here is a 5-minute video that was such a needed reminder for me this week. 

Well-Meaning But Misguided

You have your Enneagram autopilot patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing because this is what you needed to navigate times in your life when you were actually powerless, resourceless, and/or supportless.

The very cage that protected you from the scary, shifting outside world when you were younger actually restricts you and causes suffering when you grow bigger in size. Your body grows up and your abilities expand, but your autopilot survival mode doesn't upgrade accordingly.

Hence it's really important to be gentle with yourself that your Enneagram autopilot is still on - it's trying to help you, but with outdated information.

(Think of an employee who out of fear of being fired keeps creating problems it knows how to solve...If that person has reassurance that they're safe and okay, they might actually direct their attention and energy towards what is actually needed and beneficial and become a fantastic worker.)

Time To Grow Beyond! 

If you're feeling like your approach to life just isn't working the same way for you anymore (or that it's actually creating problems), it's time for you to take the next step in taming and peeling back your autopilot (open the doors to that cage) so that you can spread your wings and explore the wondrous skies that you were always meant to enjoy.

Here are some options for next steps:

1. Learn more about your Enneagram autopilot through these blogs or other resources

2. Schedule a 1:1 Enneagram coaching session for you chart your next growth steps beyond your type

3. Join the waitlist for my BFF Melinda Olsen's type-specific growth groups (for 2s and 4s)

4. Check out one of the Enneagram inner work retreats led by my teachers Beatrice Chestnut & Uranio Paes

Wherever you are in your journey, I am so proud of you and happy that you're here. It's not an easy journey to grow beyond your patterns, but so so worth it.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

What is Self-Referencing + Others-Referencing?

What is Self-Referencing?

Self-referencing means using your own perceptions and experiences as the main - sometimes even final - reference point with which you process through things or make decisions. Other reference points (like other people's experiences or perspectives) often don't even occur - an afterthought if it occurs to them at all.

The Enneagram types most likely to do this are Types 4, 5, 7.

• Enneagram 4s often get into such chaotic, push-pull dynamics is because they're basically living out a relationship with their IDEA/fantasy of someone instead of the actual person.

• Enneagram 5s often take on a passive observer, gathering information of the outside world from their ivory tower within their fortress for them to then process (and come to conclusions) on their own without others' actual input.

• Enneagram 7s are often focusing on pursuing pleasure/avoiding pain, and in doing so, they are often less likely to give much weight to other people's experiences.

Self-referencing ≠ selfish.

It's just that those who are self-referencing are more likely to go through life thinking that they're the main character and that everyone else is a NPC (non-playing character) or a faceless, storyless extra. 

Someone can be incredibly caring of others, while still seeing life through (mostly) their own lens (ex: Self-pres 4s or Social 7s). 

GROWTH TIP for Self-Referencing types:

Practice OTHERS-referencing by asking other people questions (and NOT answering for them!). Practice living as if what others are saying are true and see what happens.

What is Others-Referencing?

Others-referencing means using other people's perceptions and experiences as the main (sometimes final) reference point. Enneagram 2s, 3s, and 9s are generally others-referencing that they often have a difficult time knowing their own perspectives, opinions, wants, and needs. 

Others-referencing ≠ generous.

Thinking about other people's feelings and needs does not automatically mean that someone is considering their well-being over one's own. There are instances where someone can be thinking about others as a way to fill one's own needs (Type 2s & 3s are more likely to do this by shapeshifting.)

Type 9s would think about others as a way of not thinking about themselves - this seems selfless, but more in the ego-driven sense and not the actual selfless sense. Nines need to actually reconnect with SELF.

GROWTH TIP for Others-Referencing types:

Practice SELF-referencing by NOT asking other people questions about what they think but making decisions for yourself. Notice the outcomes and your reactions.

What did you learn from that experience about yourself - your wants, needs, opinions, and values? 

What about Types 1s, 6s, and 8s?

Types 1, 6, and 8 are a mix of both self-referencing and others-referencing. It depends more on their dominant instincts (see below).

How does Enneagram subtype play into self- or others-referencing?

A person's subtype (Enneagram type + dominant instinct) is likely to impact how strong someone is self- or others-referencing.

• Self-preservation dominant folks are more likely to be self-referencing than other instincts of that type.

• Social dominant folks are more likely to consider group dynamics, agendas, and perspectives.

• Sexual dominant folks are more likely to give weight to their significant people's experiences and preferences (e.g., parents, partners, children, best friends, etc.)

Of course, we have all three instincts, so this is not a prescriptive rule, just an observation.

Part of using the Enneagram for personal growth means dialing back the dominant instinct and practicing more of the repressed instinct so that we would be more rounded out and holistic in how we see life, ourselves, and others.

Why is this important?

A car with only gas OR brake pedal is no good - it needs BOTH pedals to function to its full potential.

The goal is to have ready access to BOTH self- AND others-referencing, instead of being stuck on just one OR the other.

Wherever your Enneagram autopilot leans, take some steps this week to balance yourself out!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Why Each Enneagram Type Goes to Therapy

Here's a bit of tongue in cheek for you, somewhat based on my observations as an Enneagram therapist. (I'm half joking...and half serious.)

Why does each Enneagram type go to therapy?
vs.
What's their actual need for therapy?

(Not sure what your Enneagram type is? Check out these steps!)

Enneagram Type 1
(The Improver)

What they think they need

• How to be good or better, because they're frustrated with how they/things are now.

• How to get over anger, resentment, and bitterness.

• How to deal with anxiety.

What they actually need 

• How to recognize that what's nonideal/imperfect can still be good & worthy.

• How to be more "bad" - messy, imperfect, irresponsible, childish.

• How to allow things to be as they are, however they are.

Enneagram Type 2
(The Befriender)

What they think they need

• How to improve relationships.

• How to help other people.

• How to not be so emotional.

What they actually need 

• How to see that relationships can actually cost them.

• How to recognize that their own feelings are their allies.

• How to meet some of their own needs themselves, rather than indirectly through other people.

• How to learn to be in and enjoy solitude - connect with themselves first and foremost.

Enneagram Type 3
(The Performer)

Often choose coaching over therapy (who has time for feelings??)

What they think they need

• How to seem like they have their shit together.

• How to deal with their emotions efficiently.

• How to "level up" so they can be more effective at what they do.

What they actually need 

• To slow down and catch up with their own heart.

• To see themselves (and others) beyond what they do.

• To find out who they actually are & what they actually want.

Enneagram Type 4
(The Individualist)

What they think they need

• How to resolve the past that made them who they are today.

• How to navigate relationships with people who just don't get them.

• How to not self-sabotage their endeavors. 

What they actually need 

• How to not stay stuck in the past (or future) ((or fantasy) but live in the present.

• How to recognize that they create/embellish their own suffering.

• How to see the good and enoughness in themselves.

Enneagram Type 5
(The Observer)

Often don't show up unless dragged into couples therapy

What they think they need

• To not be in therapy because the partner's the one with the problem.

• How to "figure out" feelings.

• How to deal with the existential dread of feeling like they're running out of time.

What they actually need 

• How to recognize that they actually have more energy and resources than they think they do.

• How to see other people as opportunities to get their needs met, not intruders.

• How to live life outside of their head and more in their heart & body.

Enneagram Type 6
(The Questionner)

What they think they need

• How to deal with work stress - procrastination, anxiety, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, etc.

• How to deal with relationships with close people.

• How to not be so stuck.

What they actually need 

• How to acknowledge just how much fear & anxiety drives them.

• How to recognize their own strengths and authority, rather than seeing them in others.

• How to rest and relax their mind and body in the present.

Enneagram Type 7
(The Enthusiast)

Often don't show up unless dragged into couples therapy

What they think they need

• How to wiggle their way out of therapy ASAP.

• How to charm the therapist so they don't have to talk about hard things.

• How to maximize fun and enjoyment in life.

What they actually need 

• How to see that their avoidance of limits itself is what's actually keeping them trapped.

• How to see order, routines, and commitments as actually making enjoyment possible.

• How to recognize negative feelings actually make life richer.

Enneagram Type 8
(The Challenger)

Often don't show up unless in couples therapy

What they think they need

• Nothing. They're fine. Clearly the other person is the problem.

What they actually need 

• How to see their actual impact on their life, work, and relationships.

• How to see their avoidance of weakness/vulnerability is what's creating situations where they're actually powerless (e.g., a breakup).

• How to allow themselves to be the one protected and comforted.

Enneagram Type 9
(The Peacemaker)

What they think they need

• How to deal with relationship stress.

• How to deal with work stress - procrastination, not implementing their goals.

• It's too much work to think about myself and what I need. I just don't like what's happening now.

What they actually need 

• How to reconnect with and befriend their anger as a source of energy.

• How to individuate themselves from others instead of merging.

• How to take the next right step to identify and push forward their own agendas.

Wanna grow BEYOND the trap of your Enneagram type?

Spots open for 1:1 Enneagram therapy or coaching!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Growth Tips for Each Enneagram Type (Part II)

In a previous blog, I gave one exercise for each Enneagram type to try as a way to grow BEYOND your type.

Have you tried yours?

Here's another set of growth steps.

Type 1 (The Improver)

• When I'm on vacation, am I in:

  • Work mode - optimizing your schedule, trying to be efficient, doing what you think you "should" do, etc.

  • Play mode - being present with how things actually are (instead of what they SHOULD be), relaxing, and enjoying the moment

  • What feelings, sensations, or reactions come up when you reflect on relaxing/taking a break?

Type 2 (The Befriender)

• Set aside 1-2 hours each week doing something BY yourself, FOR yourself, and WITH yourself - something that doesn't benefit anyone else but you. Some examples:

• go to the library and read a book

• take yourself out to a coffee shop or restaurant on a solo date

• do what you used to enjoy as a kid (or always wanted to do but never got around to it)

• get a massage 

• If these ideas sound AWFUL, what feelings, thoughts, or reactions come up? Why do you suppose that is?

Type 3 (The Achiever)

• Ask 5 people from different parts of your life to describe you with 3 words.

• How varied or similar are the responses? Do others see the same version of you from place to place, or do they see different versions of you? Why do you suppose that is?

Type 4 (The Individualist)

• How often do you feel bored? How often do you lose interest in something or someone you've been chasing for so long and you actually manage to attain? Why do you suppose this reaction is?

Type 5 (The Observer)

• How would you describe your relationships with a diagram? What are the advantages and disadvantages of this relationship setup? How does this relationship style impact your stress levels -- for better and for worse?

Type 6 (The Questionner)

• When have there been moments where something terrible DID happen and that you were able to survive (maybe even excel in) that moment? How can you give yourself more credit for your STRENGTHS?

Type 7 (The Enthusiast)

• What have been some ways that your pursuit of positives/downplay of negatives has led you to LESS positives and MORE negatives? How can you practice connecting with the negative side of life a bit more than before SO THAT you can have fuller, deeper access to the truly joyful things in life?

Type 8 (The Challenger)

• Write down the impact you think you have on others. Ask 3 people you trust for feedback. Read the feedback when you're alone -- the point is for you to gather & sit with new information, not to react in front of others. Allow whatever reactions to come up (move your body as you need), and when you're more grounded, then use your head & heart to really consider the gravity of the content. Make 5% more room in your life to accommodate the feedback.

Type 9 (The Peacemaker)

• Practice initiating hangouts with other people, rather than only waiting for someone else to initiate. It's okay for them to say no -- if so, go ask someone else!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

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Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How Does Each Enneagram Type Self-Sabotage?

Type 1 (The Improver)

Ones believe that they must BECOME good by constantly improving themselves, the world, and/or others, not knowing that they are ALREADY good though imperfect (bc good ≠ perfect).

Ones sabotage knowing their own goodness by refusing to acknowledge their inherent goodness and constantly looking for something to "fix".

Type 2 (The Befriender)

Twos believe that they must constantly make themselves lovable by shapeshifting into what (they think) others need, not knowing that they are ALREADY lovable as they are.

Twos sabotage themselves in refusing to take in love they do get because they're so used to transactional support. If they get love, it's as if they need to do something to "pay back the debt" because love isn't free.

Type 3 (The Performer)

Threes believe that they must constantly make themselves more worthy & admirable by seeming more successful, not knowing that they are ALREADY worthy and admirable in their true selves.

Threes sabotage themselves by shapeshifting so much according to others' definition of success that they forget who they actually are. They forget that success is defined by who THEY themselves are and what they WANT, not what others think.

Type 4 (The Individualist)

Fours believe that there's something inherently wrong with or missing from them that makes them worthy, not knowing that they are ALREADY whole and enough. 

Fours sabotage themselves from connecting with goodness by assuming they're already disqualified from it. They desperately want to be understood, but also (unknowingly) make themselves un-understandable by constantly making themselves the exception to the rule. (slippery weasels, we are!)

Type 5 (The Observer)

Fives believe that they don't have enough resources, time, and energy to deal with the world's demands, not knowing that they ALREADY have more than enough resources (because the world provides for what they need). 

Fives sabotage themselves by cutting themselves off from the world, living in their fortress behind impenetrable walls and up the ivory tower, assuming everyone else is a potential invader who would take their resources, while obsessing over their diminishing supply and getting depressed because they're disconnected from everything.

Type 6 (The Contrarian)

Sixes believe that they're unsafe in this scary world, not knowing that they ALREADY have enough strength, authority, and ability to take care of themselves IF they need to.

Sixes sabotage themselves by starting to create threats because they don't know how to (or don't want to) live in peacetime mode. (Pre-traumatic stress disorder!!)

Type 7 (The Enthusiast)

Sevens believe that they need to avoid being trapped in neverending pain/negativity by pursuing as many fun experiences as they can, not knowing that they are ALREADY capable of navigating (and surviving) the darker waters that actually give them deeper joy.

Sevens sabotage themselves by avoiding responsibilities, painting themselves into a corner when the consequences of those decisions pile up and shit (still) hits the fan.

Type 8 (The Challenger)

Eights believe that they need to constantly be powerful or else they'll be vulnerable or betrayed, not knowing that they are ALREADY vulnerable and it's okay to be comforted and protected by others.

Eights sabotage themselves by making so many risky and chaotic impulsive decisions that actually strip them of their power and make them vulnerable to rejection and betrayal.

Type 9 (The Harmonizer)

Nines believe that they need to blend themselves into the background so as to not rock the boat, not knowing that they ALREADY matter and belong as a unique individual.

Nines sabotage themselves by avoiding upsetting others so much that this itself causes tension in their relationships and life.

What reactions come up for you when reading about your types self-sabotage strategies?

Did I go for the jugular...? Sorry, not sorry!! I do want GOODNESS, WHOLENESS, & FREEDOM for you.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Growth Tips for Each Enneagram Type (Part I)

The Enneagram tells us 9 different ways of seeing/responding to life that USED TO be helpful coping strategies when we were younger that NOW keep us stuck in painful situations.

(If you don’t know your Enneagram type, here’s a blog to help you find it.)

Here is one quick growth tip to help you grow BEYOND your Enneagram type!

Type 1 (The Improver)

• Go out in nature and observe how the trees & wildlife are imperfect AND YET are still worthy. Entertain the idea that the same might also apply to you.

Type 2 (The Befriender)

• What percentage of your time this week did you spend focusing on or doing something for other people?

• What's your guess as to what percentage of time non-Twos spend on others?

• Go gather info - ask 3 people you know (ideally non-Twos) this question and hear what they say.

• Notice the difference - What are the BENEFITS of spending less attention on others and more on themselves? 

Type 3 (The Achiever)

• How often have you felt the emotions of impatience or frustration this week around tasks?

• What might be the BENEFITS of things moving at a different speed or way that you would like?

Type 4 (The Individualist)

• (Without judging yourself) What is your guess as to the kind of impact you have on other people? (positive? negative? big? small? neutral?) Write the guess down.

• Ask 3 other people this question, then compare their answer to yours. Do their answers align with yours?

• If yes, what's that like having accurate self-assessment?

• If no, why do you suppose their responses are so different from yours?

Type 5 (The Observer)

• What's your reaction when you find out that you DON'T know something? How comfortable are you with the state of not knowing about a topic or not knowing how to do something?

• Does it matter whether other people know whether you do or don't have knowledge in an area? Are there ever moments when it's okay that you don't have all the information or know-how?

Type 6 (The Questionner)

• At the beginning of the day, write down what you anticipate happening in the day. At the end of the day, write down what actually happened.

• Focus on the ACTUAL, not HYPOTHETICALS.

Type 7 (The Enthusiast)

• When thinking about what to do over the weekend, write down 5-6 options of activities, put them in a jar, then draw one card.

• Consider what else remains in the jar as irrelevant until the following weekend.

• This one option is the adventure of the weekend!

Type 8 (The Challenger)

• When has your reliance on your power and strength backfired?

• When something goes wrong, how likely are you to assume that it must automatically be because someone else messed up?

• How often do you take ownership of your own impact on the outcome or on relationships?

Type 9 (The Peacemaker)

• Coin Flip - When making a decision, flip a coin. When the coin lands with its assigned outcomes, notice your immediate reaction. Did you feel relief or tension?

• Relief means go with the outcome of the coin toss.

• Tension/dread means go with the other option.

After you try this, leave a comment letting me know what you think! Since I only have firsthand familiarity with the ways of Type 4, I would love any feedback from those of other types!

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

What My Birthday Has Taught Me

March 30 is my birthday!

Several years ago, I would have never imagined announcing this so openly to 3,000+ people, let alone the 5 closest friends to me.

Because I felt SO UNCOMFORTABLE drawing attention (even positive ones), I used to get squeamish about my birthday, burying my head in the sand and hoping it would just blow over without anyone noticing as if it's a terrible event.

This tapped into the same part of me that would avoid, deflect, or minimize any compliments or appreciations I got.

It always baffled me how some people would not only enjoy their birthday but would want everyone to know it. How can they handle such intensity of positive attention??

In the past five years, I learned that my own Enneagram type (Self-preservation 4) was interfering with my ability to be celebrated.

Here is what happens for Enneagram 4s:  

- Enneagram 4s have such a deep shame message that says, "I am bad/broken."

- Anytime someone tells Fours something similar to the above message, we absorb it and won't let it go. Anytime someone says something different than the above message, we deflect it. (Self-referencing)

Here is what happens for those with a dominant Self-preservation instinct (regardless of Enneagram type):

- We crave predictability, control, and planning. Anything we haven't planned/prepared for (e.g., other people's emotions/sentiments or surprises) freaks us out.

By knowing my Enneagram type, I've done a lot of deep healing to recognize that:

- I, too, have goodness in me - just like everyone else.

- Others don't automatically have ulterior motives - some are actually excited to celebrate me.

- It's okay to allow myself to be seen, loved, and held. 

This does NOT mean that those who aren't an Enneagram 4SP can't ever get squeamish about getting positive attention. This just happens to be the 4SP reasons we get stuck.

Other types might also deflect for different reasons:

• Enneagram 2s might crave positive attention and feel rejected when they don't get it. But when they DO get positive attention, they feel embarrassed and awkward.

• Nines generally feel uncomfortable being the center of attention (though they feel hurt when they're ignored or not included)

• Self-preservation 1s might be so obsessed in noticing their imperfections that they have a hard time acknowledging that they, too, are good.

• Social 7s might want to focus on making things fun for everyone else and put their own wants last.

​What does knowing our Enneagram types do?

It helps us see how our autopilot ways of thinking, feeling, and doing actually gets us STUCK in painful situations. Each of the nine Enneagram types show us how we create our own suffering (on top of the challenges that come with life). 

I really wish I knew the Enneagram earlier in life - it totally would have helped me heal and move on from the same old narratives.

This is why I'm so driven to spread the word about it - NOT so that I tell you how to put yourself in a box, but precisely to show you how you've been stuck in a box already and help you get out of it.

Your Enneagram type is NOT who you are - it's what you've BELIEVED you are. There's so much more to you beyond that.

Interested in learning more about the Enneagram? Join the waitlist for the online webinar that I'm running with Melinda Olsen, another Enneagram therapist.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

How to Set Boundaries over the Holidays

"I KNOW I need to set boundaries, but I CAN'T."

This is what I hear often when I'm working with people who learned how to people please, placate, and repress their own feelings/needs to survive their significant relationships. All of these are examples of "FAWN" responses (in addition to FIGHT, FLIGHT, and FREEZE) to (even anticipated) scary or risky situations.

Why the resistance to setting boundaries? Here are some reasons:

• I don't know how.

• I feel guilty/bad. (BTW - "bad" is not a feeling, but you get the idea)

• I don't want to because it's too scary.

• I don't want to because I don't think I'm worth it.

• I don't want to make them mad.

The majority of the people I work with have some strained relationship with family members. Unlike friends, whom you can choose or leave at will, family is what you're born into without any say.

As the holiday season rolls around (and also around family holidays like Mother's Day or Father's Day), old wounds are poked, stirring up feelings of anxiety, guilt, overwhelm, shame, irritation, resentment, etc.

Even relatively healthy relationships with family might stir up stress as people navigate spoken or unspoken expectations, travel plans, financial strain, and limited time.

Questions to prepare for the holidays

If you're feeling DREAD around seeing some people over the holidays, consider up front:

How can you keep from overextending yourself?

What are your realistic limits in terms of mental, emotional, physical, or financial energy? How can you build more down time into your schedule?

During the harder times of the year, plan to do 70% of what you usually do so that you have a greater buffer. Operating at the full 100% makes it so that any extra pain starts depleting the resources you need to just get by a “normal” week.

When things are harder, make it EASIER on yourself. DO NOT TRY TO TOUGH IT OUT - YOU’VE ALREADY DEALT WITH PLENTY OF SHIT.

Who are some people who drain energy?

What's the maximum amount of time you can hang around someone without becoming reactive?

PRO TIP: Schedule 1-2 hours with that person and schedule something ELSE at the end of that time period.

Give the person a head's up that you have something afterwards ("I have other things I gotta do while I'm here" or "I have other people I need to also meet up with"), and when time's up, say "I gotta go!"

How can YOU initiate an activity?

You might have some people you’re not super excited to see but feel like you HAVE to (like a nagging relative who keeps saying, “Why don’t we ever see you?”).

They keep reaching out to you, and you feel like you have to either maneuver your way out of that invite (and feel guilty) or endure that experience (and feel trapped, anxious, and ashamed).

PRO TIP: Sometimes, if YOU initiate an activity you feel better or safer about (bowling, watching a sports game, or shopping), then THEY would be in a position to say yes or no. If they say yes, it’s at least on YOUR terms and timeline. If no, oh well! At least you tried.

Who are people you need to steer clear of completely?

Or hang out only in public spaces? Or only when other people are around?

Don’t force yourself to hang out with them. You don’t owe anyone your time, energy, or sanity.

Let them throw a tantrum or get upset. You’re not the asshole for not making their drama your drama.

Who keeps asking inappropriate or uncomfortable questions?

Some people are freakin nosy, digging for deets about whether/who you're dating, whether/when you'll have kids, how much money you're making, etc.

PRO TIP: Pick some neutral/shallow topics you can purposefully redirect the conversation to. Not everyone deserves to have access to you. YOU get to choose - not letting others into your life does NOT make you a bad person.

Who are some safe people who can care for you?

Who can you ask keep you company during those scarier situations?

Who can help you decompress afterwards?

Here’s a blog that describes who’s a safe vs. unsafe person.

PRO TIP: Ask one of them ahead of time to call you with some urgent matter partway through if you need an out of an unpleasant meetup.

If you’re feeling guilty

Obviously, some of these things I'm encouraging you isn’t 100% ethical. Save your ethics and morality for situations where you actually have SAFETY and FREEDOM - not when you're pressured, bullied, or guilt-tripped.

When you're dealing with unhealthy, manipulative people, you do NOT need to expose yourself to being exploited or hurt again. YOU ARE NOT A BAD PERSON FOR KEEPING YOURSELF SAFE.

If you’re playing a game where the other parties keep cheating or changing the rules, there’s no fair play. No need to follow the rules; you may stop playing the game altogether.

To butcher a Henry Cloud quote: If you set boundaries and the other person gets mad, it's NOT a sign that you're doing something WRONG. In fact, it's CONFIRMATION that boundaries were necessary in the first place, because this person has been benefitting at your expense this whole time. 

MAD: The Emotion of Boundaries

ANGER is a good self-protecting and self-honoring emotion right about now. Not all anger is bad, and not all love is good. The healthy versions of both create relationships where there's enough room for BOTH parties, not just one at the other's expense.

If you're wanting to know more about the HOW-TOs of boundary setting and assertiveness, check out the following:

• A blog I wrote about Radical Candor (from Kim Scott's book).

• An interview I had about toxic relationships

• A blog about assertiveness

• A blog about resentment

• A blog about safe people (from Henry Cloud and John Townsend's book)

• These Instagram posts about anger (bio page > “MAD” highlights)

I’m really rooting for you. Hang in there.

After this season is over, I encourage you to use the non-holiday months next year to build towards a year-end time that suits and honors you. Perhaps it might be time for you to find yourself a therapist.

---

Do your BIG Feelings always TAKE OVER, ruining important moments or derailing your goals?

Grab this free guide that helps you handle feelings like a pro when they show up at the "wrong place" or "wrong time"!

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---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Which Enneagram Types are Romantically Compatible?

This is one of the questions I get asked ALL. THE. TIME.

I get it — relationships are freakin hard already, and people wanna know which combos got the best shot in making it through the rocky terrain to arrive at the luscious promised land of intimacy.

But I hate to break it to ya—it's NOT about which Enneagram types are compatible with each other, but more about how much personal work each person has done. It's about how healthy and nonreactive, and wise both parties can be, rather than what personalities they are.

There is no "perfect match" between Enneagram types.

Each combination can be REALLY GOOD and REALLY BAD and everything in between, depending on how much each person has worked to grow BEYOND their Enneagram type.

(By the way, the word "compatibility" literally means "com" (with) + "pati" (pain) + ability = the ability to struggle together. If that's the definition being used, then, yes, all 9 types can be compatible with each other.)

Stuck in Autopilot

The Enneagram speaks to 9 different ways people cope with and navigate through life. Each person's type is their own "autopilot mode" of thinking, feeling, and doing as a way of dealing with stress. Our autopilot survival skills have helped us move through vulnerable times in our lives, especially in childhood (when we really couldn't control a lot of our experiences).

But the very cages that have protected us from scary things when we were young are the same bars that keep us stuck when we've grown up and don't need the same protection anymore.

If we cling to our personality types (for example, by being proud that we are a certain Enneagram type, we are staying inside that tiny cage and are wondering why our hunched backs are aching.

If we stay inside that tiny cage, there's no room for another whole person - just whatever pieces of them "fit" our idea of how they "should" be.

Because we are still WHOLE persons, regardless of whether we're willing to acknowledge that, we're in for a rude awakening when the rose-colored glasses come down (because they will) and we realize that WHOA - this person is NOT who I signed up to be with.

The Enneagram: a Map for Personal Growth

Our Enneagram types tell us what path of inner work we have. Unlike how the Enneagram is used nowadays (in pigeonholing people and trying to find what type of holiday gift to get each type), it was originally intended on revealing to us our blindspots and shadows in how we get ourselves stuck (and pull others into our muck in the process). We were all meant to grow beyond our coping skills.

The Enneagram is not a horoscope system to see what kind of day we'll have or what our fate will be. The Enneagram shows us a map pointing to where we COULD go IF WE DO and DON'T DO OUR PERSONAL WORK.

Our Enneagram type doesn't dictate the ending - it just reveals the possibilities. Whether a particular POSSIBILITY becomes an ACTUALITY is up to you.

• Are you willing to do the work or not?

• Is your partner willing to do the work or not?

• Is your family member or leader willing to do the work or not? (Because this is not just for romantic relationships!)

So Who do I date?

The simple answer? Anyone who's willing to do their personal work, so as long as you are also willing to do yours.

Doesn't matter what Enneagram type y'all are - that just shows some details about how your respective autopilots show up and interact with each other. If both of y'all are doing the work and become more flexible and grounded (instead of constantly triggering each other), y'all will do just fine.

As long as each person in the relationship is willing to:

• learn about their own respective autopilot patterns,

• acknowledge that they have blindspots and flaws,

• and take personal responsibility to work out of reactivity,

then ALL combinations of types have a fantastic chance of having a phenomenal relationship - romantic, platonic, familial, professional, or otherwise.

Remember the true definition of compatibility? Learn how to STRUGGLE TOGETHER so that you can experience true intimacy. It's not all pain and no gain - it's through the hard work of waking up out of reactivity that y'all can truly BE PRESENT to ENJOY each other's company to the fullest.

Learn more about your Enneagram type!

Buy on Amazon

Read a blog about each Enneagram type.

• Enneagram 1

• Enneagram 2

• Enneagram 3

• Enneagram 4

• Enneagram 5

• Enneagram 6

• Enneagram 7

• Enneagram 8

• Enneagram 9

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Two Quick Tips to Be Assertive

The Value of Assertiveness in Relationships

Many of the people I work with (myself included) have trouble being assertive in relationships. We tend to focus our connections on empathy and meeting the needs of others, but that focus on the other OVER the self can really impact the relationship and yourself. Such a dynamic is what Kim Scott calls “Ruinous Empathy,” a dynamic that takes empathy so far that the relationship no longer has room for the self. Such relationships cultivate resentment and lead to easy burnout. (You can read more about Ruinous Empathy in my blog post on Radical Candor.) Practicing assertiveness is a tool for building BALANCED relationships where both YOU and OTHERS matter.

Tip #1: Use the Sentence: I am open to “____”; I am not open to “____.”

One way to be assertive is to use the sentence, "I am open to 'blank;' I am not open to 'blank.'" Sometimes when someone else makes a request or a demand of us, we might find ourselves feeling stuck between the options of:

• Saying YES, going along with their demand or request, OR

• Saying NO, where we're in the position of rejecting.

So, the template, "I am open to blank, I'm not open to blank," provides an alternative option. An example is if someone asks, "Hey, can we go to San Francisco and do X Y Z things." I might not be up to that because I tend to have low energy, so I may say, "Hey, I'm open to grabbing coffee for a couple of hours with you; I'm not open to spending the whole day in SF." That might be enough.

Instead of you being in a position of going with the other person's request exactly as it is or denying their request completely, you pitch a THIRD OPTION. Now there's room for negotiation here and that's totally okay. The idea is that you're not stuck in an all-or-nothing arrangement.

The converse can happen as well when you're making a request to someone else, and they're in a position of saying yes or no. If they say no, you can follow up with, "Well, what are you available to do?" You give them an opportunity to speak for themselves. That way, you don't just have two options. It opens up that conversation.

Tip #2: Don’t Over-Explain

The second way of being assertive is to NOT over-explain yourself. Now if you're like me and a lot of people that I work with, we tend to feel bad about putting forth our needs. We feel guilty or we're scared that the other person may say no or get mad, and when we finally muster up the courage to make a request, we provide this lengthy explanation as to why that request needs to happen or why it's a good idea.

It's totally understandable why people might feel the need to over-explain. The downside is the more you explain yourself, the more you actually dilute down the effect of your request. You water it down. So sometimes when you over-explain, the listener may have a harder time keeping track of what your initial request is. An example might be instead of saying "I'm not available on Friday,” you say something like "I'm not available on Friday because I need to go to the grocery store, because I need to gather all this food to prepare because my in-laws are coming tomorrow and they have high expectations.” The other person is like, well, that's way more much information than I needed.

The over-explanation might not be necessary and sometimes it's just generally good practice, especially if you have a hard time with boundaries, to hold back on sharing more than is actually concretely necessary for the question at hand. The main question is, "Are you available on Friday or not?" So instead of over-explaining yourself, stick to the point. Stick to the action item saying, "I am available on Friday," or "I'm not available on Friday," and notice how often you do over-explain and see what tends to happen in those conversations. More likely, the other person you're talking to may feel or sense that you are more defensive or you are more insecure because in effect you're kind of backtracking.

So, state the request very clearly or state the boundary very clearly. You don't owe anyone an explanation for anything, for any of your decisions. If you happen to be interacting with someone who tends to push boundaries, like they say, "Well, why?" Well, that might actually be a reflection of them being a less safe person than you thought they were, and that might be a signal for you to start dialing back for that very reason. If you're interacting with someone who demands to know the very reasons or justifications for your actions, that's kind of a sign that they don't really respect you all that much. So, to develop respect, instead of giving more of yourself, you give them less access to you; that's generally a good practice.

Being Assertive in Your Connections

So in summary, there are two quick ways of being assertive.

One is for you to say the sentence, "I am open to blank; I am not open to blank."

The second one is to watch when you over-explain yourself and practice dialing back.

You don't have to do a full 180; just practice dialing back 5% and then see what happens. Sometimes people might be okay with a simple yes or no. We don't know. So go test out these assertiveness tips and see how they might improve your relationships.

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Concentric Circles of Connection

Shifting Relationships

Every time we go through any major life event (positive or negative), it's good to check in with the nature of our current connections.

Such shifting points include:

• Getting a new job

• Starting or ending a relationship

• Upgrading to the “next level” of relationships

• Moving to another city, state, country

• The pandemic

• Losing (or gaining) a job

Sometimes we find out through life experience that our connections maybe aren't as sustainable as we might think of them to be. With some people, we may not actually be as close to as we would like.

Instead of constantly putting yourself out there and then feeling disappointed, or hurt, or realizing that your relationships are super imbalanced, it's good to do a check-in every now and then.

Ask yourself, "Is my connection with someone able to sustain the level of intimacy as I would like?"

The Concentric Circles of Connection

There are many different kinds of friendships. It's not a matter of “Yes, I have friends” or “No, I don’t have friends,” but “What kind of friends do I have?”

Imagine that there are several levels or tiers of friendships.

(The number of levels may change over time, but here’s one way of distinguishing them.)

View fullsize

• +: Positive experiences

• —: Negative experiences

Tier 1: BFFs (+++———)

At the innermost circle are those who are our Ride-or-Die people. These are the people who know ourselves the best, those with whom we can share our deepest darkest secrets with and they will show up.

The relationship is consistent day after day. They're going to be there for you, no matter what. They’ve explicitly made that commitment clear.

You've cultivated a lot of connection and trust and rapport, and they're also able to sustain the difficult emotions. So, it doesn't mean that you have an equal amount of positive and negative interactions with each other, but this is the depth of experiences that you share with them.

When the best and worst things happen, these are the people you call first.

Tier 2: Close Friends (++——)

These folks have demonstrated that they're trustworthy. They share in your personal hardships and also celebrate your wins. You can have great dinners and heart-to-heart talks.

You're still close to them and deeply enjoy their company, but they're not the first people you would call if something happens. (You’ll eventually catch them up when you do meet.)

Tier 3: Fun Friends (++—)

These are people with whom you have mutual interests and have fun. You might like going to concerts, play board games, or do wine tastings, but when something hard goes on in your life, they're nowhere to be found.

That doesn't mean that they're necessarily a bad friend, but they're just not in your inner circles. That’s okay.

It's important when we come across these kinds of connections that we release them from any expectations for us to rely on them, so that THEY don't feel trapped about what we're going through, and WE don't rely on people who are not readily available for us.

But we can still have a good time! Relationships don’t have to be all-or-nothing, eggs-in-one-basket, intensity-or-bust (Take heed, Enneagram Fours! Not all experiences we have in life are super serious and it's good to learn how to lighten up and to enjoy things.).

It’s good to have a wide range of relationships, even ones where surface-level convos are the norm and where activities serve as the core.

Tier 4: Neighbors (+—)

These people can be co-workers or literal neighbors—people you see pretty often. You know each other's names, how many kids or pets y’all have, generally what might be going on in each others’ lives, but you're not necessarily going to call them up to hang out all the time.

You might share, "Someone hit my car bumper last night, and I'm kind of feeling frustrated," or "Yeah, like my kid is about to do a major performance and super excited about it."

Sometimes, to avoid repercussions in your daily life, you may opt NOT to share things.

You might connect every once in a while, but mostly you see each other in passing, say hello, be polite, be gentle. Other than that, they're not necessarily involved in your lives.

Tier 5: Acquaintances (~)

These are people who are neutral and you don’t share much with at all, good or bad. You know of each other, from a distance. If you don’t hit it off, oh well. It’s not (necessarily) a problem.

Tier 6: Blacklisters (——)

These are people who have demonstrated over and over again that they are NOT trustworthy, and they hurt more than help. They often take way too taking up way too much space in the relationship. It’s all about them, and there’s little room for your own feelings or your experiences.

When you try to speak up for what you need, you get shot down or you get dismissed, minimized, gaslit, etc. As these people are toxic, it's generally good to have strong walls up and give them minimal information.

Sometimes these people are those who used to be your closest friends, and sometimes they're family members. It's really really hard and painful in those situations, but the cost for not putting up those boundaries is that you get more and more diminished.

Emotions like resentment, guilt, shame, anxiety are all evidence that someone who belongs in the outer tiers are too close to you. Sometimes they barge in, sometimes you give them an inch and they take a mile.

They may still be valuable as human beings, so they deserve a base level of human dignity (don't be mean to them), but don't give out your personal information (including what’s going on in your life) because they might use it against you.

These are people you interact with where afterwards you feel bad about yourself or your life. THESE ARE NOT YOUR PEOPLE; GTFO.

Is everyone in their rightful tiers?

To maintain health and longevity, do an audit of your current relationships. List 10 people you often see these days, and indicate what your general interaction is like with + and —.

• Tier 1 (BFFs): +++——— (can handle both strong positive and strong negative experiences):

• Tier 2 (Close Friends): ++—— (similar as BFF, but not first pick)

• Tier 3 (Fun Friends): ++— (mostly pleasant, but not as deep)

• Tier 4 (Neighbors): +— (neutral, frequent but surface level)

• Tier 5 (Acquaintances): ~ (neutral, little sharing)

• Tier 6 (Blacklist): ——— (consistently negative)

Plot these individuals onto the Concentric Circles chart (download here). What do you notice?

Some questions to think of:

1. Are there people who have more access to you than they deserve?
   If you keep experiencing more pain than good with someone (and they refuse to change), it might be time for you to bump them into outer tiers.
   This does not make them lesser of a person, but just relocates them to where the relationship can actually handle the level of intimacy. When people stay closer than they’re supposed to, that increases the risk that the relationship will implode or explode, resulting in that person being sent to the Blacklist.
   Find the right amount of intimacy that is sustainable.

2. Are there some people who have demonstrated trustworthiness that you can give more access to?
   Sometimes, those you never expected to be close to may become some of your closest people. Be open to trying out new levels of intimacy until you hit a limit - that might be the new equilibrium point for the next season of your life.

Changing Needs, Shifting Tiers

You may find that there are some people who kind of move back and forth between different tiers—that's totally okay!

Be open to having relationships of varying mobility. Remember, it’s not all-or-nothing.

As we change and grow in life, our needs and wants change. We need to shift our connections to match the new level of personal growth.

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What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

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"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2021 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this resonate?

Enneagram Type Two: What It's Like

My therapist colleague Melinda Olsen (Inviterra Counseling) and I are writing several blog series about the Enneagram, a comprehensive yet compact personality framework that reveals our reactive, “autopilot” patterns of thinking, feeling, doing, and relating.

In this series, someone from each Enneagram Type (Types One through Nine) will be sharing about their own journey of discovering and using the Enneagram for deep healing and personal growth.

In this post, Melinda will be sharing about Type 2.

Here are other types posted in the series so far:

• Type 1 - Josh Chan

• Type 3 - Morgan Hancock, LMFT

• Type 4 - Joanne Kim, LMFT

• Type 5 - Alyssa Harris

• Type 6 - Jonathan Siu

• Type 7 - Stefie Dominguez

• Type 8 - Marianna Torres

• Type 9 - Lorren Siu, LMFT

What does it mean to be an Enneagram Type 2?

Living Outside Myself

For me, when I’m on autopilot, being an Enneagram 2 is about always being tuned in to the thoughts, feelings, needs, and actions of other people (especially “my people”), and living a life outside of myself without even realizing it. 

Needing To Be Loved/Liked

Being an Enneagram 2 means being convinced that I know what it takes to get people to like/respect/love me, and that anything generous that I do I’m doing out of my own kindness and generosity. I expend a huge amount of energy outward toward relationships and I spend a lot of energy and focus a huge amount of attention on whether or not people feel positively about me or love me. 

The Pride of Having No Needs

I know, I know. I just said that Enneagram 2’s have a deep need to be liked/loved. However, being an Enneagram 2 also means that my own thoughts, feelings, and needs are locked in a dark room somewhere inside of me that I can’t access let alone navigate without a huge amount of effort. When I’m on autopilot, it means I’m not really aware that I have any needs.

At the same time I can also be really resentful/angry that others don’t notice or take care of me or my needs (that I don’t understand or acknowledge).  

At the heart of things, being an Enneagram 2 (for me) means wrestling with a sadness and fear believing that I will never be enough, in and of myself, to be deeply loved. 

Here are a couple of great resources for understanding Type 2’s:

• Defining Type 2

• Hear from all kinds of Type 2’s

When did you first realize you were Enneagram 2?

I first read and identified as an Enneagram 2 in college (I was 20) while reading Richard Rohr’s Enneagram. At first when I read about how 2’s kindness and helpfulness were just a manipulative means to an end (WHAT?! I’m not altruistically kind and generous?!), I really resisted identifying myself as a 2 (typical). However, as I continued to look at the 2, I realized that my strong negative reaction to the number was likely a good indicator that I was on the right track.

I realized that I spent a lot of time doing things “in order to get someone to…”: notice me, befriend me, like me, care about me, etc.

What do you wish people knew about Enneagram 2s?

I wish people knew that not all 2’s are these kind, spineless doormats (and that’s not even what being a 2 is about). I don’t want to do everything for everyone or help everyone. I want to help some people more than others, and actually, being giving/helpful is usually a means to an end (getting them to like me/love me).

Also, I have less of a problem expressing anger (just ask my husband) or pushing back against some people. We 2’s can be intense, stand up for what we believe in, and be incredibly manipulative (giving to get). 

What’s something you’re focusing on to grow out of your type?

This is an important question because the goal of Enneagram counseling is not just to understand our type, but to actually gain the ability grow beyond it. Right now my biggest focus is learning to not “abandon myself”. I often have this growth point in mind whenever I do my own Enneagram therapy and coaching. I have often gotten lost in knowing others’ experiences, feelings, needs, etc., and left myself behind as a result.

I’m going through a process of grieving over abandoning myself for others, and am starting to learn what it takes to stay present with my experiences and feelings, and am starting to understand that I matter as much as other people do. 

---

What are your Enneagram type's emotional habits?

Grab this free guide that shows you how to grow beyond the patterns that keep you stuck!

Don't know your Enneagram type?

Find yours here!

What are your emotional habits?

Get the Emo Habits Guide!

Loading...

Woo hoo!!

Check your inbox for your free gift guide,

"The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types"!!

---

© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA, who loves helping people create emotionally thriving relationships. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
(4) adult survivors of emotional abuse and neglect

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”

Does this Resonate?