Relationship Patterns of the Three Enneagram Instincts

Transcript

Jenn Pinkerton

Welcome to the Redhead Reveal Rodcast where we reveal what it means to truly connect. I'm Jenn Pinkerton, your redhead host. I'm a psychotherapist, high performance coach, sexologist, writer and speaker. As a connection expert, I help people transform by exploring the root causes and beliefs and behaviors that hold them back. Let's talk about living a life where you thrive.

I've got an exciting guest today. I've got Joanne Kim, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from the San Francisco Bay Area. Joanne specializes in Enneagram-informed therapy and Brainspotting, and I have been super into learning more about Enneagram, and so I know a lot of my listeners are going to want to learn about this too, and to figure out what you are. And I did the the experiment myself on the test to figure out what I am. It was really interesting. So this is exciting for me, and this is so aligned with your work.

As I was reading up on you, I understand you work with big feelers and empaths and highly sensitive people, and you are so in touch and attuned with that this, this, this makes total sense to me why you are such an expert in this study and in this field. So I'm excited about kind of getting deep with you on understanding the three Enneagram instincts (Self-Preservation, Social, Sexual), and how they shape our relational patterns as a relationship therapist and a sex therapist.

This is my jam. This is where I where I exist, and I love to understand if this is information that would help my clients and my audience and my listeners. So let's kind of dive in. I'm excited about this.

Joanne Kim

I'm glad to be here. This is a really important topic, because it shows up in all kinds of different ways in the work that I do with people, and I think, if anything, it helps us to also better understand ourselves. So, really exciting.

Jenn Pinkerton

Yeah, self exploration. I love it. I want everyone to be on this journey of self exploration before we kind of dive into those enneagrams. I want to ask, you know, a little bit about your personal journey. You know, what got you here, what drew you to this work?

Joanne Kim

Well, I've kind of dabbled in all of the different arenas people wouldn't be able to guess just by looking at me and my socials and all that, that I actually started this journey long ago in mechanical engineering and, oh, wow, ended up in political science, and then the Asian studies as a Japanese major, being an ethically Korean person, and then did a stint in being a pastor for a couple years, and then I found myself in therapy land. So who's to say whether or not this is going to be something that I'll do for the rest of my life? I am always open to evolving and seeing where the winds take me. But I love that, that freedom you have to do that, and that you've been able to figure out a lot of different things that that you enjoy doing. I like the idea that our life is never about these permanent decisions, that we have the flexibility to grow and learn and reflect and try something new. I I covet that sense of adventure, you know, often, so I think that's great. Yeah. So even though, on paper, I've been kind of all over the place, there is still a common thread that ties throughout all of them, and it's about building bridges between ourselves and someone that we have a hard time understanding. So a lot of it is that our own lack of self awareness can create a lot of obstacles in us getting to understand other people, because we do a lot of projecting, because we're trying to make sense of life and of the other person according to what makes sense to us, not knowing there are whole different other paradigms that are just as valid, that makes sense to the other person, but it seems like a foreign language to us. And that is such a gap that we see in couples and in people when we talk about relationally. Is so often people want to give love in the way they want love, versus having love in the way that they want to receive it. Being able to say, this is the way I want life to be. Well, how do you want life to be? And I think understanding your person is the key to happiness, to be honest with you,

for sure. And you know, we didn't just, like accidentally find our people. There was something in them that resonated with something in us. And it's kind of like a strong magnet, and I think a lot of it has to do, and I think we'll get more into this later, that sometimes the other person, our special person, tends to specialize in what we have locked up for ourselves, sure. And so I think, you know, as people grow over time, our special person can also change over time, although in cases where the partner or the other special person kind of remains rigid and stuck, what used to be a fit before doesn't become a fit going on and so

Jenn Pinkerton

exactly, and we talk a lot on this podcast about that. We repeat. What we don't heal, and healing is this linear experience in life. And I agree with that completely, because we are attracted to people and drawn to people of what is familiar, and then later, as we evolved and it becomes less familiar to us to be stuck in maybe the same coping skills and the same viewpoints and perspectives on life, and maybe heal from some trauma, suddenly we're not attracted to the same thing anymore, and suddenly it's not so familiar, and suddenly what we strive for and want is what we were missing. Yeah, so I

Joanne Kim

have to give people a disclaimer before starting therapy. I'm like, you think an end result might not be what you're going for here. So especially if someone is an environment where they are personally willing and able to grow, but the other folks in their environment remain the same. It's kind of hard to get some movement

Jenn Pinkerton

Exactly, exactly. Well, I want to ask you, too about what does it mean to be a big feeler, because you mentioned that, and that's in some of your content, and I really loved those words, so tell me what that means to you.

Joanne Kim

Yeah, I think context matters. There are some people whose personality or temperament is inherently designed to use feelings as the main currency, but some other people might use thoughts or logic as the currency and energy being the last one. But it's not just people who have a deep connection to what we in the Enneagram world call the heart center, our emotional space, but people who also are likely in their environments to be the ones to express it. So there's some people who have a lot of big feelings, but what we do with it is to stuff it down. So definitely, the emotional engine is loud and kicking, but oftentimes in relationships, it leads to spaces where the person feels really alone and misunderstood, because there's a lot of things going on the inside, but people on the outside is like, whoa, that's too much, or I don't know what to do with it, and there's a lot of rejection and pain that can happen. A lot of that has to do with other people's own relationship, with their own feelings. So if they're not fluent in feelings, they're going to reject someone who is and so there can be a lot of that kind of projecting dynamic. So when they call people big feelers, it's kind of a misnomer, because yes, they are more flexible and more skilled at navigating their own emotions, but they also have big feelings because other people around them aren't feeling enough of theirs.

Jenn Pinkerton

Okay? So I love kind of that idea about the big feeler, and as we move from that into kind of the, I think the three instincts, I wanted you to get a landscape of what the three instincts are. And then let's just go ahead and dive into what is an Enneagram. Yeah,

Joanne Kim

so I need to give a little bit of a intro on the Enneagram. First, the word Enneagram is ennea, which means nine. Ram means points. So the Enneagram speaks to nine different personality types. These are the ways that color the way that we see and react to life, and these are universal human motivators. So we feel a little bit of everything, but we get stuck in one because it's like speed dial. It's just quicker when something happens to just default to one instead of deliberating through all nine. But the tricky thing about the Enneagram is that when people are like wanting to know their type, it takes a while to go through all nine because it's a lot of behind the scenes, fears, motivations and all that. And frankly, not everyone is quite self aware, especially given that some types are designed to not focus on their internal world, right? For example, some are inherently shape shifting depending on the person that they're around. So sometimes I like helping people explore their type through the door of instincts, because we have nine types, but we have three instincts, nine times three, we have 27 different subtype combinations. And so this accounts for the, you know, rich diversity of people's experience. Even, you know, a couple people of the exact same type, how that type manifests will be wildly different depending on which of the three instincts are dominant. So I like talking about the instincts also, because they're built into our lizard brain. These are immediate, so the Enneagram type tells us why we do what we do. The instincts tell us how or with whom. So it's inherently, you know, like the barrel of the cannon that directs all the firepower. So the three instincts are self preservation, social, sexual, the 3s and two of them, the social and sexual instinct are about other people, or they're inherently relational. The self preservation instinct is about one's relationship with oneself. Okay, so we. Have all three. One tends to be dominant, which means it shows up without us even trying. It's our fluent language. And sometimes the dominant instinct is one that shows up more than it's supposed to, because when the hammer is the only tool we have in our hand, everything looks like a nail. On the other hand, there is,

Jenn Pinkerton

Wait. I love that. Hold on. Second again. That was so good. Joanne.

Joanne Kim

The dominant instinct is one that shows up more than it's supposed to, because when we only have one tool in our hand, we see the world through what that tool can do.

Jenn Pinkerton

So it's as though we're stuck, almost, because this is what we're relying upon, almost in survival, almost as our survival skill or or as I like to refer sometimes maladaptive coping skill. Yeah, great, yeah, but the

Joanne Kim

maladaptive coping skill was adaptive if the nature of what we're coping with fits the skill that we default to. And I look

Jenn Pinkerton

at it as it served us beautifully at one time, yeah, just maybe it doesn't quite serve us as well.

Joanne Kim

Yes, as you know, vulnerable kids who didn't really have a whole lot of resources or skills or wisdom or whatnot, back then, it was just simpler to just stick with the one. But as our bodies grew up, our coping skills haven't upgraded accordingly. And so, you know, later in life, you know, mid 20s and on, when people start reaching out for therapy, it's when people realize, oh, wait, things aren't working the way that I thought they would. I had all this excitement and confidence when I, you know, listened to the graduation speech that we're going to conquer the world, and a couple of years in, I'm like, Why are things working out? Wait, this did

Jenn Pinkerton

not work out. Like I thought it was gonna be. Life was supposed to look great, different than what it

Joanne Kim

is. And when we're stressed, we double down on our coping skills, so we try even harder to make things work, only to find out that the very hammer is starting to break things

Jenn Pinkerton

so, very, very insightful.

Joanne Kim

There's a dominant instinct, and then there's also something called the repressed instinct. It's the instinct that we feel is bad, partially because it's too scary or too unfamiliar, uncomfortable, whatever. So we shove it into the closet, and the repressed instinct is the one that actually doesn't show up as often as it's supposed to, meaning the situations and the challenges that we find ourselves in, sometimes that repressed instinct is the missing key, but because we shoved it into the closet and crammed it all in, we're even more we feel more held hostage, but it's kind of of our own doing. Okay? So we have the dominant instinct, the one that shows up more than it's supposed to, then we have the repressed instinct, the one that doesn't show up as often as it should. Okay? And this creates the instinct sequence. So, you know, if you take the three instincts and, you know, do the whole, you know, math class permutations and all that, you get six different combinations. Okay, so there are nine types, 27 subtypes, but 54 different combinations. We don't have to wild. We don't have to get into all of that. But why this matters is that it explains how we tend to default so quickly to our own reactions the way we do, and how some people feel like aliens, especially when they have an instinct sequence that's the opposite of ours.

Jenn Pinkerton

That makes so much sense. This is it's kind of like a light bulb goes off when you think about this new way to look at people.

Joanne Kim

Yes. So there's already challenges when somebody's dominant instinct is someone else's repressed instinct, okay? Because then there's kind of extra judgment and shaming that goes on, but all the more so if it's an exact opposite. So I myself am self preservation, dominant, social second, sexual instinct, last, which means anything that pertains to the self press instinct I'm really good at. It doesn't take much effort. So anything that is more mechanical, and I'll go into detail what each of the three are. I'm very good at planning, preparing, thinking ahead of time, reflecting on the past. I'm very mechanical, hence mechanical engineering. Yeah, the part that I have, it's a learned in a learned skill and acquired taste is the repressed sexual instinct, which is, it includes sex, but it's not really not really about sex. It's really about the vitality and the vivaciousness of life, almost like passion, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, right. So you take someone who's self pressed first, very armored, very guarded, very prepared, who also has locked up the zest for life, you get someone who's overly rigid, regardless of the why the Enneagram type and then my bestie, who has the opposite instinct sequence, she is sexual, dominant, social, second self, Pres, last so because we're opposite, there's a reason why opposites attract. Earlier I mentioned is because people tend to project, you know, right? Um, but sometimes it's because we use the other person to fill a need so that we don't have to ourselves. It's

Jenn Pinkerton

the beautiful counterbalance, right? It's the yin and yang, the counterbalance that they they're gonna fill what I can't fill,

Joanne Kim

right, right? And so the two of us together, we were like, stuck, you know, peas and pod, we would basically conquer our domains, our communities, because I'm like the ninja behind the scenes on the moon, the Yin, and then she's the young with coming with all the zest and energy and fire. And we kind of, you know, divide and conquer in a lot of ways, and sometimes we helped each other grow in our respective blind spots.

Jenn Pinkerton

So what, what Enneagram number are you versus her? Yeah,

Joanne Kim

I'm, I'm Type Four. She is Type Two. And the motivations, I mean, there's, there's a whole lot of theory. I get it way more than we can cover in a single podcast episode. But just the brief, the snippet of it is Type Four. A lot of the motivation is wanting to be distinct, special, different, unique. All that wanting to be seen as an authentic individual, whereas, with her setup, type two is about wanting to be loved, wanted pursued, admired things like that.

Jenn Pinkerton

So can you have, can two people have the same Enneagram number, but have it the different ranking of your instinct?

Joanne Kim

Yes, absolutely. So yeah. So I happen to be Type Four, but because my sequence is self, press, social, sexual, I am going to still have the same reasons why I do what I do as some someone else who has say, has sexual, social self pressed last. But how we show up is wildly different. And so all the nine types have three versions, the subtypes, one of the three, the instinct and the type, the motivation, sometimes goes in opposite directions. So each of the nine types have what's called a counter type. It's the version of a type that doesn't look how it's usually described in Enneagram literature. Okay, and those people usually have the hardest time locating what their type is like, no one will be able to guess that I'm a four just by looking at me from the outside, because my self res instinct is in a lot of ways antithetical to how Type Four works, all right. So it's basically almost like a push pull, yes, yeah, oh my god, yeah. So all the camera types have more of that ambivalent push pull dynamic, whereas for my bestie as a sexual two, her instinct and her type align more easily together. So it's very clear that she's a two, and sometimes it's it's helpful, because there's a lot more clarity in terms of her doing her own personal work in ways that sometimes I'm not really sure what my next steps are. But that's a double edged sword, because that means, in some themes, she's more deeply entrenched than for me, because the push pull dynamic actually helps to pull me out of the mud, if you will.

Jenn Pinkerton

That makes such an amazing amount of sense, and it's so much deeper than I thought it was, to be honest with you, yeah, okay, so give us a quick rundown. You know, just for time purposes, just a quick bullet points, a little bit of all the nine types,

Joanne Kim

yes. So all the nine types. So if we're starting from type eight, click, my teachers tend to go 891, all the way to seven, sure, eight, nine, ones are the body types. They're the ones whose main currency is energy and movement. So all three have to do with action. Will agenda for movement, purpose change. They just do it differently. So eights are like the sledgehammers who get their will done. Ones are the ones who are at odds with their own will. Okay, so they tend to implement some higher will. So people who tend to be perfectionistic or whatever, they implement this, a perfect world's idea into existence. And then nines are the ones who are disconnected from their own will. So they tend to be the peacemaker, aligning themselves with others to smooth things out. Then we have the heart types, twos, threes and fours. All heart types have to do with relationships, image, identity, so their main emotional engine is around sadness or shame. But what each of them do differs based on type, because twos and threes focus more on connection at the expense of their authenticity. Okay, or seek authenticity at the expense of connection. Got it the difference between twos and threes and how they get connection is twos make themselves lovable by shape shifting into what they. Think the other person wants or desires. Three is shape shift into what the other person or their context views as successful. They're a lot more action oriented than twos who are very, very relational. Four, sent to be kind of more of the Think outside the box. Don't put me in a box. Don't tell me what to do. There's a little bit of a teenager rebel piece to them, in the ways that type ones are very grown up, overly adult like then we have the head types five, six and sevens, whose main currency is thoughts, emotions, logic, and their main focus is I am what I have. So there's a lot of collection of information, of material things, of safety, security, gathering people so that they feel at ease or experiences. So fives tend to hoard knowledge so that they feel safe. So they're ones living in their fortress with the heavy, thick walls, living all the way up in the ivory tower, observing the world from afar. Sixes are ones who find ways to make themselves feel safe or secure, but they tend to be the devil's advocate or the ones constantly testing or questioning things. So if you think about piglet from Winnie the Pooh, is a classic example of someone who might be type six type seven. Those are the ones who collect and gather experiences. So they're sometimes known as the enthusiast. And whereas sixes overly see the world towards worst case scenario, the negatives of what could go wrong, sevens go the opposite direction as thinking about what could go right. So they're the possibilities. They're the Tiggers or the TED lassos of the world got it. So we have all nine, but we get stuck in one.

Jenn Pinkerton

Now, is it possible to be on the cusp between two, or is there always a defining factor that you're a one? I

Joanne Kim

think people are born with their types, but our patterns can look like others, partially because of the instinct sequence and the counter types like I mentioned. So I'm a four who doesn't look like a four, even though I definitely operate like a four behind the scenes. On the outside, I can show up like nines, ones, twos, basically every other type, but the main key trait is it depends on my mood. And so yeah, I think in a lot of ways, our type and instinct combination matters, but also, especially for the more shape shifting types are, environment matters as well. Because let's say we take someone who's type three, who shape shifts according to what they sense the environment's definition of success is, you take that person, you pick them up, drop them off in a different part of the world, who have different definitions of success, that person's going to shape shift according to what that immediate environment values.

Jenn Pinkerton

So knowing that, is it healthy? Is it not healthy? What does it look like if two of the same types are together or you're opposite? What aligns the best?

Joanne Kim

Well, one of the most common questions I get asked as a therapist is, okay, so I'm such and such a type. Who am I most romantically compatible with? And the answer I tell them is not what they want to hear, which is, it doesn't really matter what the other person's type is, because it's less so about type combination. It's more about level of health, because we tend to be drawn to people who are at similar levels of emotional health and maturity as we are, because Healthy People are drawn aren't drawn towards unhealthy people because it's too chaotic, and unhealthy people aren't drawn to healthy people because it's

Jenn Pinkerton

too boring, exactly, and I shared that same idea in a different way with clients all the time that people will say, I, you know, was in an unhealthy marriage, and then I left it. Okay, well, why did you leave it? Well, it's because you grew and you outgrew that no longer. It didn't serve you anymore. We only in life because they're serving us in some way, shape or form. And so if it stops serving you, it's because you have maybe done some emotional work to decide I don't need that anymore. I'm not filling that void anymore. I'm not going with what's familiar anymore. You know, I've evolved.

Joanne Kim

Yeah, so the combination of partners types do matter in that for example, let's say there's two partners who, let's say, are very compatible, in the sense that things are easy. They never fight. They're just always aligned or whatever. But how do you know whether it's because they're actually working through things together, or because both parties are avoiding conflict? How will you find out the level of health? Well, it depends on what the kids turn out to be, yeah, exactly right, and their partners and things like that. So, you know, it's important for us to pay less attention to looking for experiences or other people who are suited to our type, whatever that means, because the point of the Enneagram isn't for us to find experience. That fit our type. Actually, these are defense mechanisms that we got ourselves stuck in. We painted ourselves into a corner. So the point of you finding your type is you find your type because that's the first step of a long journey of growth and healing, exactly, basically, to grow beyond your type. And

Jenn Pinkerton

that goes back again to healing is not linear. I mean, you know, it's linear. Here we are. We're never gonna stop we're never gonna stop growing, we're never gonna stop learning. We're never gonna stop experiencing these new things. Now, that being said, I'll go back to back to instinct again. Do you think that people identify more with their instinct or more with their type?

Joanne Kim

It depends, because of the nature of the types and instincts. Again, some types are shape shifters, and the difference between the three instinct is that some of their areas of focus happen to mimic some of the types as well. So for example, the self preservation instinct, which is about, how am I doing? How can I feel prepared and ready and steady and safe and secure. A lot of that has to do with being a control junkie. We hate surprises, even if it's good surprises, because we haven't had time to prepare for it. And so that mimics some types, like type one, type three, type five, those are the competency types, or maybe type six, because those are the worst case scenario, people, hmm, right,

Jenn Pinkerton

I wouldn't thought that. Okay, that that. That tracks for me. All right, so that's the kind of good descriptor, descriptor of the preservation part. Yes, give me a good descriptor of the social and sexual you mentioned. Sexual was this passion and energy, right? It's the social part.

Joanne Kim

So the social and sexual that what they have in common both being the relational instincts. It's about, how are we doing, but the social instinct focuses on, how are we doing all together as a group, versus sexual instincts, how are we doing the one on one connection? And so the social instinct comes with themes like status influence, basically, who's in the pecking order, who's in the hierarchy or the collective, who's in, who's out, who's top, who's at the bottom, who has power influence status and who doesn't. So what a louder are themes of exclusivity or ostracization or exile, type of themes, or sometimes it's, how can I best occupy whatever role this whole group needs? So there's kind of more of a shape shifting element inherently built into social instinct,

Jenn Pinkerton

right? I hear a lot of accommodation in that, yes, a lot of how can I adjust and

Joanne Kim

access at the at the expense of individuality because of social instinct is inherently non individualistic, whereas the self present sexual instinct inherently are just differently. Yeah,

Jenn Pinkerton

the sexual say that one more time, Joanne, because I think that's important.

Joanne Kim

The social instinct is the one that's the most inherently non individualistic. It's collectivistic, and so it's different from the self present the sexual instincts, because both of those other two focus on

Jenn Pinkerton

self. Yeah, better self. Okay, okay, got the

Joanne Kim

sexual instinct again, it's about dynamism and energy, zest for life, things like that. So there's a lot of bias towards and against the sexual instinct in certain domains, like in the arts and media, we love people who are sexual dominant because it's more fun, it's more wild and zesty. But when it comes to professional context, those who are sexual dominant also tend to have a harder time because the nature of the instinct is to be more spontaneous, wild, unpredictable, pushing against boundaries, things like that. So the sexual instinct is focused on like, How can I find and secure my special person or my mate, right, so that I'm okay? But with the what comes with the territory are things like territorialism or rivalry, competition, things like that. So it's a common dynamic when two people are interacting with each other, and let's say one or both of them are sexual dominant, they tend to have a really good time, but as soon as a third party enters into the picture, now it becomes a group,

Jenn Pinkerton

yeah? And so now we're off. Now it's shifted. Everything's changed,

Joanne Kim

right? And so the kind of relationship dynamic that happens for sexual dominant folks in a group is triangulation. Okay, so for example, you know you have parents who are really good at connecting with each other, but as soon as they have a kid, everything shifts, and they don't quite know how to adjust accordingly, because when one parent is connecting with a kid, the other parent feels like they're rejected or turning over, right? And so a lot of that shows up across different relationships.

Jenn Pinkerton

That's so interesting. Okay, so I think that there's a name may be associated with each type, right? There was I read, I think I read the charmer or the achiever. Can you go through what those names?

Joanne Kim

Yeah, I use different terms than what you might find in general Enneagram literature.

• Enneagram 8 — The Challenger/Changer

• Enneagram 9 — The Harmonizer

• Enneagram 1 — The Improver

• Enneagram 2 — The Befriender

• Enneagram 3 — The Performer

• Enneagram 4 — The Individualist

• Enneagram 5 — The Observer

• Enneagram 6 — The Questionner

• Enneagram 7 — The Enthusiast

Jenn Pinkerton

Interesting. So what if someone does two different tests from two different places and they get two different results?

Joanne Kim

Well, part of that accounts for does the test creator know about subtypes? Okay? Because, just in a nutshell, the Enneagram has technically been around for thousands of years. However, it's been passed down mainly through oral tradition, because teachers, knowing the potential of this framework, warned their students don't ever write this down because we don't know how people will actually use it. I don't know if people have the emotional majority to handle it. Probably most people don't. And so, you know, Berkeley students did at Berkeley students do. They defied the orders of their teachers, and they wrote it down. So the Enneagram, as we know it in the English speaking world, is the iteration of the Enneagram that was made known since the 70s and on,

Jenn Pinkerton

Okay, but interesting little factoid there.

Joanne Kim

Stuff about the instincts didn't make its way onto those writings that's actually been more widely circulated, maybe In South America, and so when teachers from there came to the United States, my teacher, Beatrice chestnut was one of the students of the people who brought the subtype and the instinct piece in. And so her book, the complete Enneagram, I think, is one of the earlier written pieces of literature that speaks very deeply about the instincts and the subtypes. But that was, I think, written in 20 I forget 2016 is pretty recent. It wasn't

Jenn Pinkerton

that long ago, well. And I think the subtypes are so important, those instincts are really important. Because when you were saying that I'm aligning, immediately going, I know which one I am, you know, I think that's very, very telling. So if someone wants to take their their test, which I know people are going to after hearing this podcast, where do you recommend? What is the the place that you think is going to be the right place for them to go and take their Enneagram test?

Joanne Kim

I would recommend the test that my teachers have created, reluctantly, because people are going to take online tests. So that's at CP enneagram.com they have more time, CP, CP, enneagram.com c for Charlie, P for I don't know, pottery, enneagram.com and they have a 20 page or so report that describes the type as well as the instincts and how the combination shows up, including growth steps and things like that. So highly recommend it.

Jenn Pinkerton

Okay, I'm going to be sure I put that in the show notes too, so people can test that. Because when I was just researching, I took this years ago, but I never was really certain if I bought into it and then I did it again. It was different, but that was years between the two. And I'll tell you, what's really interesting is, when I first did that test, I know that I wasn't a therapist, and now being a therapist, and it's very different. I wonder if that's about my own growth and about my own life focus. So I thought that was kind of an interesting thing to reflect upon, too. Yeah, I want to switch gears a little bit just to talk about you. I know that part of this work is you see a lot of commonalities, and you work with people that are showing up from that Enneagram that it's helpful to help with that. Like we talked about big feelings, or big feelers. We talked about many people that are truly empathic. And then also there's like the idea of the golden child and their performer, for people that are maybe very perfectionist oriented. Have you found that a lot of your work aligns with that where you can say, Okay, this is where they are. This is something that is a wheelhouse for me to work with, people to kind of grow from,

Joanne Kim

yeah, the numbers or the types I tend to work with, partially because they resonate with my website and they reach out to me are nines, ones, twos and fours. So the Harmonizers, the improvers, the befrienders and the individualists. Because what those three have in common is that they tend to align themselves or make themselves very accommodate able, and they tend to take on what they sense is necessary for a group at their own expense, and so feelings wise, lots of burnout, resentment, guilt, shame, anxiety, because one of the things that they locked up is anger, because anger has been labeled as a bad, scary, destructive emotion, and that doesn't quite align with their values. Um. Some other types generally don't tend to show up to therapy spaces, like threes, fives, sevens, eights. So that's also partly the reason as well. They tend to seek more of a coaching space if they seek anything at all.

Jenn Pinkerton

I think that's the key point. If they seek anything at all the if

Joanne Kim

you look at the Enneagram symbol, it's a circle with nine different points and bunch of lines that cross in between. And nines to fours are form the right side. And then there's like the left side of the Enneagram, the right side type. So nines, ones, twos, threes, fours are known as the pro social types, the other half are known as the antisocial types. Doesn't mean that they hate people. It just means that pro social types have setups that tend to consider or accommodate to the context that they're in, and anti social types tend to kind of do whatever they want independently of what whatever the context is interesting. So a lot of accommodating people, a lot of people pleasers, placaters, a lot of oldest sibling of immigrant families or the most conscientious, empathic, responsible one in a collective or a family. So this person ends up overly taking on responsibility and sometimes the emotions of what other members of the family underly do, and then they get sick of it,

Jenn Pinkerton

yeah, and then you have to work on undoing, you know, that pattern,

Joanne Kim

which their family members aren't quite happy about,

Jenn Pinkerton

sure, because it worked. Why are you fixing something that isn't broken?

Joanne Kim

Yeah, so sometimes it's, for example, for twos, twos tend to reach out for therapy because they want to improve their relationships, not knowing the relationship that they need to really focus on is their relationship with themselves, not with other people, not the other people.

Jenn Pinkerton

How do you help clients move from that when they're really stuck in that place? Do you do you refer back to this Enneagram often? Are you able to use that in your work consistently to be able to show this you know this timeline of where they can where they are, where they can grow to,

Joanne Kim

yeah, so most people who are a good fit with me have done some kind of therapy before. Great. They've done some trauma work or family work and stuff, and so I don't tend to work with people who are experiencing current crises, like the house is currently on fire. I tend to work with people whose houses have already burned down, and they're trying to figure out how to build new houses so that they don't repeat the same pattern again. So they've already experienced the disillusionment, and they already recognize that what they've been doing this far isn't working, though they don't quite yet know what else to do. So they're kind of already in a very open space to consider beyond their type, yes. And so people, yeah,

Jenn Pinkerton

I wonder, do they also maybe recognize that they're the common denominator at that point?

Joanne Kim

Yeah, which is really hard for certain types. For example, there's one where pride is the main deadly sins. It's really hard for them to acknowledge that they might have been part of the problem, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, some people reach out to me specifically because of the Enneagram. There's a ton of Enneagram coaches, not a lot of Enneagram therapists. So they kind of know already having some sense of what their type is or whatnot, or they have a good solid guess, and then, usually in the first couple sessions, we clarify that, and then dig in deep. Some people have never heard of it, which is totally fine. In that case, I kind of put up a mirror and ask some questions, like, has this happened before? Has this happened before? And they're like, how did you know? I'm like, this is just a guess. You know, check this out and see what you think or feel about it. And then they usually come back, like, I didn't know that someone else could describe me. So clearly, I didn't have the words for it. So I'm like, Great, let's find out what your type and subtype is, and then let's get to

Jenn Pinkerton

it. How quickly or how well do you think you can predict what somebody is? Well,

Joanne Kim

it's kind of a, I mean, I think there's kind of a selection bias, because as someone who's self preservation for naturally, I'm going to write accordingly on my website, according to what makes sense to me, which draws other people who are similar types? I think there are most the type who composes the majority of therapy clients are probably fours, because therapy is kind of built to be the fours playground, focusing on what's internal, what they want, what they desire and you feel. But usually when people come in, there's kind of a vibe that the mannerisms, sometimes even when it comes to eye contact or body posture and things like that, sometimes I can kind of sense, see or feel it. Yeah, and so the questions I ask them are kind of informed from that space, just because I've seen, you know, across the gamut. And there's also, there's sometimes people who come in thinking that they're one type, and they come in and they tell me about. Ever is going on in their lives. And I'm like, Have you thought about this, or does this apply, or does this occur to you? Like, what happened in this part of your life in that part of your life? Doesn't matter if you're interacting with people one on one, versus a group, versus when you're by yourself. So some clarifying questions, and I think a good chunk of the time we find out that they it's not that they mistyped themselves because they don't know themselves well enough. It's just that the framework that they initially came across the Enneagram with was limited, right?

Jenn Pinkerton

It wasn't a full scope of how deep this can go, yeah?

Joanne Kim

So if people want to find out what their you know Enneagram type is, and they do the online test, I'm not knocking on online tests, because I still use it. So I said, Hey, like, if you, if time is important to you take an online test or two and then see what your top two types are, then bring it in, because there just happens to be some subtypes that are look alike. So we'll just compare and contrast. So it expedites things still. But it's not going to be that the test results are going to be the, you know, actual authoritative decision.

Jenn Pinkerton

Well, I can, I will reveal now what I was as for ending this, this episode. I am a four as well, and my instinct is sexual, yeah, for that kind of passion for things and experiences in life and the four from the aspect of being that feeler, being that individualist, caring so much about that, it aligns so perfectly with me.

Joanne Kim

Yeah, I mean, that tracks because I was kind of perusing through your channel and all that, and the way that you carry yourself highlights more of the sexual instinct, whereas for me, as someone who's sexual repressed, that's been a learned skill. So for example, in terms of even like body posture and things like that, I've had to learn how to be like direct eye contact and be a little bit more like expressive using my hands and all that stuff. Because generally, like, if left to myself and my own devices, I tend to be more internal and very mechanical and rigid.

Jenn Pinkerton

But that's so interesting because you recognize that about yourself, and you've identified that opportunity to like grow. And I'm so big on always telling everyone that everybody can grow. It takes two things, interesting commitment. I mean, that's it. Interesting commitment. And we can all pivot. We can all have a different show up differently. And here you are proving that even within the confines of I'm a type or I'm an instinct, you have that ability to see it, learn from it, and pivot from it somewhat, yeah, yeah. So that's a great message I want to leave for people on this whole idea.

Joanne Kim

Totally. The summary of it is You we find our type, because that's the boxes that we've put ourselves in so that we can find out the next steps to grow beyond the box. Yes, and that includes rounding out the instinct as much as

Jenn Pinkerton

possible. Yes. Oh, this has been so amazing. All right. As we kind of wrap up a little bit, I want to say I know you have, like, a free PDF guide, or how can use that and get that let's talk about that for a second.

Joanne Kim

Yeah. So I have two hats. I'm a therapist on the one hand, and I'm also a feelings translator on the other. So it kind of depends on which direction appeals more to you. So on the Enneagram front, I have a PDF guide and video free video series called The emotional habits of Enneagram types. It kind of charts out of the Big Five feelings, mad, sad, glad, scared, numb, which ones we tend to play favorites with, and which ones we tend to bully and shove into the closet. Oh, this sounds good. I'm excited about Yes. And then on the feelings translator front, I have the big feelers first aid kit guide. So this is for people who's worthy, you know, important emotions tend to show up of what they deem to be the Wrong place, wrong time, in the wrong way. So for example, you know, a huge gush of sadness when they're sitting in an interview, even though the feeling is important right then, and there's not the time and space to do that, because, of course, there are other considerations involved. So that guide is useful for people to kind of take things down a couple notches until they can wait until they can get themselves into a safer space to do that important processing.

Jenn Pinkerton

Okay, good. And how can we get to both of these? They're on your website. Yes,

Joanne Kim

I will give you the show notes below. But for the Enneagram front, it's all of me counseling.com and on the feelings front is intelligent emotions.com

Jenn Pinkerton

right? Okay, good. And then I want everyone to follow you and be able to to to you know, see all this work you're doing. So we're going to link everything on this. And that gets me to what I always do, which is our guest question. I ask every guest to leave a question for future, one loving that continuity between people. So the last guest asked, what is titillating or tickles your fancy that feels uniquely aligned to you?

Joanne Kim

I think it speaks to my self predominant instincts, that anytime I'm presented with a question in real time, I go I. Yeah, freeze, yeah. But I think, upon reflection, I for some reason, I'm really drawn to animals, and there's something I think it maybe has to do with the repressed sexual instinct. There's something primal that I've been getting in deeper touch with. And for example, my Bessie mentioned that whenever I seem upset, it's really hard to tell, by the way, if you're not paying attention, but the one way to tell is I have my lip curl up, oh, Uh huh. And I did a lot of work in reintegrating my anger. And I wonder if part of the reason why I'm drawn to animals and even, like, my phone screen, I have my my big cat of the year, and I think last two years ago was a lion, last year was a snow leopard, and this year is a black pepper. And I think part of it is like that lip curl kind of aligns with, like the snarl of an animal. Yes, yeah. So interesting. Yeah. I mean, even as a kid, I love animals and whatnot, but I think I'm trying to incorporate that into my growth work by embodying the energy or the vibe.

Jenn Pinkerton

So that's uniquely you. I love that. Okay, what question do you want to leave a future redhead? Reveal guest,

Joanne Kim

what is your guilty not so guilty pleasure?

Jenn Pinkerton

Oh, that's good, too. Okay, stay tuned to see what that answer is. It's been such a pleasure to have you on here. Joanne, thank you for teaching us and sharing with us, and I'm sure everybody is going to be really apt to try to figure out what is your Enneagram and what is your instinct type!

Joanne Kim

Thank you for having me.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”