Here’s a video about being an Enneagram Type 4. Melissa Moore from the podcast “Faith Hope Love with Melissa Moore” invited me to talk about life as a Four. Scroll down for a transcript. Follow Faith Hope Love on Youtube.
Melissa: Hey guys, it's Melissa Moore. Thanks for joining me on today's episode of Faith Hope. Love where we grow together in our faith, increase in hope and learn how to better love God and love other people. We are in the middle of our, what's Your Type Enneagram series, and we're talking with a Four today. So I'm joined by a therapist of the Silicon Valley, Joanne Kim, licensed marriage family therapist, and we're gonna jump on in. Joanne, thanks for joining me.
Joanne: Glad to be here. I am a Four who actually doesn't look quite like a four, and I'll speak more to that a bit later. As a therapist, I primarily work with people who have a very. Familiar experience with anxiety, guilt, and shame, and also have an allergic reaction to anger.
A lot of the people I work with happen to be the empathic, conscientious, responsible types who then get burnt out and resentful and then they reach out to me. It's super fun to walk them through what it's like to understand their emotions and work with them instead of working against them. That's my jam.
My Enneagram Journey
Melissa: Being a type Four and being a therapist, I feel like that really helps you a lot in your practice, working with people that are similar in their desires for transformation. It's cool that you're able to help that process along just by being who you are.
We're talking about the Enneagram today. How long have you been a student of the Enneagram and did you always know that you were a type Four? Did you mistype? What's your process been?
Joanne: I came across the Enneagram about six or so years ago while I was in my therapy supervision group as a supervisee.
When the people around me introduced it to me I was like, there's no way that this can fit me, there's no way that this is going to resonate.
And actually I was mistyped early on. It turns out a couple years later I learned that I'm actually a counter type, which means the version of the type that doesn't look like the type.
From the outside, what people would see of me is being very much like a 9 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, basically everything except for type eight. But those who are close to me definitely know that I'm a Four. Even how I present myself is very much dependent on what mood I'm in.
Once I learned about the subtypes, that's been a pretty big game changer because apparently the growth path for each type, for the counter type that's supposed to go the opposite direction..
It's been quite an interesting ride.
Fours are generally known to be very emotional but very open and expressive and melodramatic. Self Preservation Fours go the opposite direction in that they need to actually learn how to open up about their feelings, which is really hard for me.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Melissa: It's interesting that you say that too, with the counter types. That's something that I've only looked into very minimally because Beatrice Chestnut’s book is so extensive. I actually skimmed through the whole thing and really honed in on the type Three.
To be able to address that is something I'm not going to cover in these videos just because it is a whole nother beast. If you're into the Enneagram and you want to go really, really deep, that's a great place to look. Especially if you feel like none of these numbers fits you perfectly.
With that, being a type Four, how have you seen the type Four, strengths, weaknesses come out in your day-to-day life? Pre-Covid now also being in this Covid world that we live in now?
How has that looked for you personally?
Joanne: The core themes for the Four are around emotions and around suffering. Fours tend to use suffering as a source of their identity. They kind of use it as a security blankie, and when things are calm on the outside Fours, freak out on the inside. There's a lot of chaos going on, and that's partially why everyone's super confused about them because there's a lot of things shifting internally.
Also, because Fours tend to be very self-referencing, their attention is focused inside themselves. So when Covid hit or when a lot of drastic changes happen for a Four’s life. Like life crises, someone passing away, getting fired from a job, et cetera. Yes, there's a lot of pain that comes from the circumstances, but compared to someone who's not a Four, Fours tend to be very chill.
Most of my clients in my therapy practice are Fours. And the interesting thing that I've noticed when we started getting into lockdown and everything was that all of my Four clients were like, “Yeah, this is uncomfortable and annoying, but okay, I guess we're just all kind of staying at home now.”
Whereas for everyone else, they were like, “I don't know what the hell is happening. I don't know who I am.” They're also having existential crises about their identity, their self-worth, et cetera.
It's a double-edged sword when it comes to pain and suffering in that, because Fours are so used to it when hard things happen in life, it's kind of a speed bump for them. And they're able to attune to other people who are going through hard times better than perhaps other types autopilots.
The downside is that they get stuck there. They overly do suffering, especially when things are good, they have an alert reaction to joy.
It's quite a pickle, especially when things are going pretty well and everyone else is like, “Well, why are you feeling so X, Y, z when all these good things are happening.” But that involves a Four dismantling their security blankie. So that's quite the tricky dynamic that their autopilot sets up.
Fours and Emotions
Melissa: And I think that's something that's so important to talk about with the Four.
I think sometimes they can get a bad rap in saying, “Oh my gosh, they're overly emotional, they think so internally.” I think that's the thing that is unfortunate about that is that Fours are critical to have in life. They make amazing therapists because they're willing and okay and comfortable with sitting with someone in pain.
I'm sure people from the last two years have realized our world is going through a lot of grief right now, and people don't know how to handle it. But Fours do. You mentioned, they see the world through that lens already, and they're okay to sit with people that have lost someone to Covid or lost someone to any other type of loss. They're comfortable sitting in that uncomfortable space.
I love that you've talked briefly about your course and what you cover in that, talking about those difficult emotions. Again, Fours are comfortable doing that, but a lot of us need help from Fours to allow ourselves to address anger, to address sadness. Normally for me as a Three, I hate looking at those emotions, but I have to, to be healthy and whole.
What does that look like for you as far as growing in health and wholeness as a Four? Not just during Covid, but pre Covid?
Joanne: I would like to consider that we are all in our elements when we can have harmony between thinking, feeling, and doing. I think that Fours tend to be feeling dominant and then their thinking supports whatever they feel. Hence, there's a lot of fantasizing and they’re action repressed. Which means that sometimes when they're going through a hard time, the one thing that's needed is for them to actually take action but that’s what they tend to under do.
In being able to be more balanced and whole, they're better able to navigate through life. Other people and other autopilots tend to have the opposite where feelings are the ones that are repressed. So if all of us can learn how to integrate all these various modes that we have, then I think it could be a lot easier, there wouldn’t be this stress build up.
I think for the Fours in not just using their emotions as a way of gauging what kind of person they are. Instead seeing that it's one part of many ways of being. I think that perspective would probably help them be more untangled in a lot of their internal stuff.
Emotions are kind of like our limbs. We have arms, we have legs, but we are not our arms or legs.
Emotions are the same way. If we can see them in their proper place with respect to other things that are also important in life, things would probably be a lot smoother
Melissa: In the course you talk about these emotions. I think that actually would be helpful for a Four to hear you talk about.
Can you talk briefly about that.
Joanne: Nowadays there's a bit more acceptance towards the realm of feelings with Brene Brown's stuff around shame and empathy. A lot of the current leaders focus on accepting emotions and sitting with it and then letting them go.
I think that's moving in a better direction. But it kind of implies that emotions are random like flies that you just need to ignore for some time and they'll just go about their merry way.
Each emotion has their corresponding theme. If we pay attention to them well enough to know what the patterns are they can actually reveal a lot of what's really important at our core. Which is what we're needing and what we're wanting.
If we can suspend judgment around emotions, people get scared of the expression of it but it’s kind of like emotions are smoke detectors. People popping the smoke detector off the wall, taking out the battery and sticking it back on the wall because they're annoyed by the sound of it versus paying attention to what is the reason why this alarm is going off?
If all the Enneagram types in noticing their emotional habits, if we can tune into what emotions tend to be overdone, what tend to be under done, it would come in real handy. Instead of our emotions revealing what's happening right here and now, our own patterns give us a quick tip as to where our Enneagram types might actually be getting us stuck.
For example, Fours generally tend to overly do the negative emotions and under do the positive emotions of joy. Different subtypes do things a bit differently, but you know, compared to type Ones where they have a conflicted relationship with anger and they also downplay joy. With Sevens overdoing joy and downplaying some of the negative emotions.
All the Enneagram types have their corresponding patterns and if we can find out what our types are it helps us to know what emotional needs are being downplayed. Also knowing our emotions can also help us find our types, as well. So it goes both ways.
I hope that the way that people are understanding and using the Enneagram is to use it as a tool for self-discovery and personal work instead of how I often see it happening, especially on social media, where it's like find out your types so you know, what kind of latte is right for you, or what kind of job to look for, what kind of partner to be with, et cetera. That's a bit more simplistic and reductionistic.
Melissa: That really sums up the intention that I've had with putting this series together. I think that if we can understand ourselves better, understand the people that we love better, then we're actually able to live in more healthy ways in our world.
A big part of that, that I think Fours bring to the table, is they're more willing to look at those difficult emotions, like every other type should be doing but we don't want to because it's uncomfortable and painful.
I think that's where you see transformation and breaking of generational trauma and addressing past hurts. You need to address your emotions around things, understanding what caused you to feel this way so that you actually can take action. Not just to create a better future for yourself, but if you have kids for your kids and your whole family going on down the line.
It's something that I really think Fours do so well, and I hope that encourages and inspires a Four if you're watching this. You're doing a great job and you're an incredible person. God's made you exactly the way you're supposed to be. And if you know a Four, learn from them. Sit with them a little bit, ask them questions.
Joanne: All the nine types also have their corresponding deadly sin and the opposite, which is known as their virtues.
Interestingly, the virtue for type Four is called equanimity. Which means having evenness and balance within our emotions. But the other definition is in seeing ourselves as equal with other people, and that is the part that's often missing for Fours in that their deadly sin is actually envy. There's a lot of comparative dynamics to it.
Once we're able to see that we are also good, not just flawed and broken. If we can see ourselves as both sinner and saint all in the same breath, then that actually helps resolve a lot of the painful experiences that we have in life.
Personal Growth
Melissa: I want to take a shift to like the more personal, how have you seen understanding yourself as a Four? How has that helped you with your faith in God? How has that helped you to have more hope for the present and the future? How has that helped you to love other people better?
Joanne: Our emotional and our relational health have everything to do with each other. Part of the reason why I am a therapist and also I'm doing this course on emotions is because I'm doing a lot of my own personal work while in the midst of supporting people with their own.
As a self-referencing type, I've gotten into way too many situations, especially in my relationships, where I think I'm interacting with someone but I'm actually interacting with my idea of that person. While the person's sitting right in front of me. In doing so, I've missed out on a whole lot of things that were actually available to me.
As a Four I've lived a lot of my life thinking that I was not eligible for good things. In actuality what that really was is that I am like a horse with front facing blinders. The good thing is actually also right in front of me. It's just that I refuse to see because I am kind of addicted to the chase of trying to look for it out there somewhere.
Interesting thing about my journey as a Four and also my faith is in recognizing that I don't have to make myself better to be good. I am already good. Then from that space I can do awesome things.
There's a lot of stuff around my identity and my worthiness that I kept getting stuck in growing up because I always felt like there's this one thing that I need, if only I could just achieve it. But even if I achieved that thing, I wouldn't feel any closer to feeling whole.
In learning about the Enneagram, I found that a lot of it was suffering of my own making because I had this defense structure that insisted on not seeing the one thing that I actually have accessible to me. Which is my own goodness.
A lot of the past couple years has been me suspending my own inner critic and my judgment and learning how to go with how things actually are instead of what I think they ought to be. For example, if I have a birthday or a good thing happens, even though I have my internal reactions of the Fours,” No, I don't want to celebrate, I don't want to do the thing”. Recognizing that’s my ego trying to interfere with me growing. I've practiced saying, you know, I can feel however I feel and also I will still celebrate, or I will still enjoy whatever's right in front of me.
Joy, rest, play. All those things for me are spiritual disciplines. They're not things that I naturally do for fun because that's a very foreign concept for me.
I think in that way the Enneagram has been really helpful in my personal healing and my growth.
Melissa: I think that's something I appreciate about Suzanne Stabile's book, “The Journey Toward Wholeness: Enneagram Wisdom for Stress, Balance, and Transformation”. She talks about how we need to make space and time for the things that don't feel natural to us. That's how we grow. For a Four that will look a lot like what you just said, taking time to rest, taking time to play, and allowing yourself to feel positively about yourself even if you may not believe that internally yet.
I think every type really can benefit from saying positive things about ourselves. Like I'm loved by God unconditionally, I'm created in God's image, God has a plan for my life. It's not dependent on our worthiness or our goodness even. Those are just promises of God and part of His character.
I think it's just being able to embrace that we are loved. Maybe I'm taking this wrong but I think that's a common thread for Fours. That they don't often feel worthy of love or they feel flawed.
Joanne: The ironic thing is Fours are known to be authentic, and I think that their intention is to be such.
It's just that when you pick and choose what parts of you to reveal to the world and which parts of you to conceal, namely, shame, then you can't be authentic because authenticity means that you are how you are already. So the thing with Fours is when they say, “Hey, focus on the positive things.” Sometimes there's pushback saying, “Well, that feels fake.”
I hear you. I don't want you to fake something, but what if, how you see life isn't actually fully accurate to begin with? If our biases towards the positive, then the way to have a more accurate perception of the world is to focus on negative data.
On the flip side, if your bent is looking towards the negative, then the way for you to have a more accurate perception of the world is to look towards the positive. I think there's a bit of resistance when it comes to connecting with the positive because for a person who's identified with this concept of suffering, it's like, if I'm not my own suffering or if I'm not my own pain well then what am I.
That's where there's a lot of really important work to be done in recognizing that we are not how we feel about ourselves. We are not how other people feel about us, but we are who we are, who we are.
The word identity in the Latin literally means to repeat. It means basically that you are who you are, who you are already and still independently of what you go through in life, what you experience, your decisions you make, how other people see you. It's a lot of unconditionality that is built into that.
Once we can recognize as Fours that there's nothing that we can do to eliminate unconditionality, it's really hard to get to, but once we can get there, then we don't have any pressure to try to be a certain way. Actually how other people think or feel about us is irrelevant because it doesn't change anything about our identity.
Final Tips
Melissa: I can really relate to that too. I think anyone that's in that heart triad, whether it's Twos, Threes, and Fours, all kind of battle so intensely with that, “What do people think and feel about me?” And that's a big thing I've had to work on. I think Covid really brought that to the forefront for me, recognizing, wow, you do a lot of stuff because you want people to think well of you and think highly of you. It was like once all of those things stopped, it was like, what is my value?
I think every type really needs to take time to sit and think about that and process through where does my value come from? Is it internally? Is it from God? Is it from other people? Assessing how much of that is healthy and how much is unhealthy.
I think Fours when they're in that healthy space do a really good job about walking with people through that process of authenticity and becoming aware of the walls you maybe put up. The facade that maybe you put up to feel safe. I think Fours can do that really, really well.
Before we wrap up, do you have any final tips for the Four or maybe for someone that loves a Four?
Joanne: I think what often gets attention when we think about Fours are feelings and there's a big thing that gets missed in the process, and that is our physical body. For Fours I would highly recommend that you do anything that involves moving your physical body, the five senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch.
Getting a massage has been one of the best things for me. Not just because it feels good. It's kind of a spiritual process as well where I'm opening myself up to receive good or to be very still instead of constantly moving and shifting.
For the loved ones of Fours my best tip is to take them seriously, but not necessarily literally.
Kind of like in the book of Revelation, the author, the Apostle John, used words and he tried his best to describe this vision that he was seeing, and words were so limited and finite. I think that's the same for Fours where they're trying to describe something that's very ethereal and existential and abstract. They're doing their best with words, but sometimes it just doesn't cut it.
So if you take them literally, you're going to get lost in the weeds because that's not particularly what they're trying to go for.
Instead ask them, “Hey, right now, what do you need? Do you need a listening ear? Do you need a hug? Do you need company? Do you just need to talk it out? Or do you need problem solving? et cetera.”
There's a children's storybook that I love. It's called “The Rabbits Listened” by Cori Doerrfeld. That will be a good book to have on your shelf if you desire to care for your Four well.
Melissa: I love that. And I think that's really a great tip for any number.
I feel like a lot of us that are in the problem solving types that we want to just say, “Okay, I hear you. What can I do?”
I think to be able to be intentional instead of first jumping to action asking, “Hey, What do you need right now?” I think that is a great tip for anybody that's listening, whether you know a Four or not.
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© Copyright 2022 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.
JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT
Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.
Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:
“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”
“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”
The three Enneagram instincts (Self-Preservation, Social, and Sexual) instincts show up in the way we engage our lives and creative endeavors. Check out this conversation with Rim from The Empowered Sensitive and Creative Podcast!